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Nerf Annihilation Marauder


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I do agree with Adjeyo (the previous post guy). I speak from a PvE point of view.

 

1- Melee DPS should provide more DPS than ranged ? NO. The multi-target DPS and the target change swiftness have WAY more impact than range on boss fights.

 

2- Pure DPS class should provide more DPS than the other ones. NO. If you want to play HL DPS, you should play sentinel or sniper only... What a nice idea ! Variety in comps should remain, as it allows each raid group to adapt the strategy to the comp. Or the comp to the stragegy... Much more fun !

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*snip 2*

 

Please leave this thread alone. You are adding no constructive criticism to it, and your "logic" is lacking.

 

Out of all the balancing reasons I've read, "a warrior should out-dps an assassin because he's a WARRIOR" has to rank up there with the dumbest. You do realize that's just a class NAME, right? You don't? Oh. Ok.

 

I guess the SAGES out there shouldn't even be in the battle... They should stay on the flagship, creating tactics for the KNIGHTS. COMMANDOS should be able to run ops solo, special forces that they are. And SCOUNDRELS should be flirty a**holes who steal all the pretty girls and vanish before every hard bossfight, only to be stopped by the SENTINELS who were guarding the door.

 

Ahh, who am I kidding? You're a troll for sure.

Edited by Greezt
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Please leave this thread alone. You are adding no constructive criticism to it, and your "logic" is lacking.

 

Out of all the balancing reasons I've read, "a warrior should out-dps an assassin because he's a WARRIOR" has to rank up there with the dumbest. You do realize that's just a class NAME, right? You don't? Oh. Ok.

 

I guess the SAGES out there shouldn't even be in the battle... They should stay on the flagship, creating tactics for the KNIGHTS. COMMANDOS should be able to run ops solo, special forces that they are. And SCOUNDRELS should be flirty a**holes who steal all the pretty girls and vanish before every hard bossfight, only to be stopped by the SENTINELS who were guarding the door.

 

Ahh, who am I kidding? You're a troll for sure.

 

Please leave this thread alone. You are adding no constructive criticism to it, and your "logic" is lacking.>>

 

Please leave this thread alone? What are you the forum police? I have every right to share my opinion just like everyone else. Its your opinion that it adds no constructive criticism to it, but its not an opinion i share. I find your logic equally lacking. Im sorry u dont share my opinion, but too damned bad.

 

I am totally serious. Not trolling in the least. Yes, the class names are just names, much like Doctors are probably better aquainted with medical procedures than Race car drivers are. Yes, its just a name, but a "class"ification is just that. It's leading and it makes certain assumptions. in order to be a race care driver, you probably have had much more experience in the operation of a motor vehicle than say a chef.

 

Ya think maybe a boxer has abit more know how fist-to-cuffs than a park ranger?

Boxer is just a word. But if you think that doesnt come with some very likely assumptions of physical prowess I can't imagine what world you live it.

 

You think someone who's trained to sneak up on people and slit their throats would be more apt to be better in open combat than someone who's training has been exclusively in the arts of war? The level of stupidity of that thought process is mind boggling.

 

It is my honest and true opinion that pure dps classes should do more dps generally speaking than non-pure dps classes. There is absolutely no justification for an Assassin to be doing more DPS than a marauder or a sniper.

You wanna be better in a fight? Stop turning invisible and running away and hiding til you feel better.

 

I'm not suggesting that non-dps classes should have vastly less dps than pure dps classes, if you read my post youd have seen that i said nothing of the sort. I advocated that some of the non-dps classes dps specs should get a buff to dps, but it should be a bit less than a pure dps class. Common friggen sense as far as im concerned.

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
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I think that's a terrible ideal ranking for specs. First of all, carnage shouldn't be that high up in sustained dps, it's a burst class and thus should generally deal less damage than most melee sustained dps. And to add to that, why would you bring something like a vengeance juggernaut to a raid with this ranking? Snipers have quite more ranged, awesome defenses and an AoE shield. Snipers are a ranged dps and they should not be out dpsing everything but marauders, just because the rest are not 'pure' dps. This balancing would take us right back to any serious team bringing only snipers and marauders as dps.

 

And let's talk about 'pure' dps classes. So yes, an assassin could taunt a boss, but it's going to die extremely quickly if it does. Why? It doesn't have the defenses of a tank. Same goes for juggernaut and powertech dps. So in the end, all you really can do is dps. And yes, an operative can heal it's teammates, but it's going to do nearly insignificant healing, at the cost of a lot of lost dps. You'll not only lose damage in the gcd's spent healing, but also after while you're recovering force. Because offhealing is quite expensive. In the end also they will pretty much only be damaging the boss. Also marauders and snipers actually have some of the best defensive cooldowns available to any dps, at least from a PvE perspective. And they also have some of the best utility of any class. With marauder having one of the 4 raid buffs and predation, while snipers get the sniper shield.

Balance is done per spec, not per advanced class.

 

Then there's all sorts of different things wrong in this list. Like AP being in the top ten, but not pyrotech. Like arsenal being in the top ten, but not innovative ordenance.

 

In short, NO.

 

I did say it was not something written in stone and was just a generalized idea, I have no issue with some of them being moved around some.

I respect that you have a different opinion, but all i can say for my part, is that it is my opinion that pure dps classes should do more dps than non-pure dps classes, its simply my honest opinion on the subject.

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In buffing the DPS of Juggs, Assassins, and Operatives DPS specs [the none dps specs of these classes shouldn't receieve a DPS buff tho. Thus the incentive to choose a dps spec], I think some common sense would sort of dictate that a DPS Jugg should do better DPS than a DPS assassin. Juggs are Sith WARRIORs, Assassins are not warriors, they are murderers. That's what an assassin us [again, just calling a spade a spade, not trying to denigrate anyone here]. Who would you rather have fighting at your side in hand to hand fighting? Mike Tyson or Lee Harvy Oswald? Who would you expect to do better in a sword fight? A samurai warrior or a Ninja assassin? Ninja's werent challanging the people they were sent to kill to duels to the death, they were first trying to sneak up behind them and use a garotte to strangle them to death. There swords were there as a last resort in case they were spotted and engaged before they could get to their mark or fleeing from an area once they had murdered their mark. Thats why Samurai wore armor and ninjas didnt. Samurai were trained as frontline fighters who would be fighting other frontline fighters toe to toe, ninjas were trained to first and foremost, not fight if they could avoid it, fighting was not their function, their function was to murder.

 

Follow your logic, Assassin should wait for right moment and then one-shoot boss before fight begins. We talking not only about fight there, but about battle. Ninja vs Samurai you say? Ninja will win.

http://wasa-bi.com/topics/438

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080226200107AAC8mdL

And if we will take prepare for battle in account

Edited by LosevV
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Oh. I forgot we didn't do impside class names... Well, check out what MARAUDER means. Not so much of a warrior now, are they? And JUGGERNAUT? Should be able to solo any boss, since they're unstoppable. SNIPERS should have at LEAST 800m range (pff, 35m...) and OPERATIVES should be inside sabotage. MERCENARIES should get double the loot. What are they being paid for? And POWERTECHS shouldn't exist.
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Follow your logic, Assassin should wait for right moment and then one-shoot boss before fight begins. We talking not only about fight there, but about battle. Ninja vs Samurai you say? Ninja will win.

http://wasa-bi.com/topics/438

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080226200107AAC8mdL

And if we will take prepare for battle in account

 

I'm by no means saying that. I am saying that in am open battle, because of the nature of assassins training [in this case we're using the anology of ninja/samurai], the samurai, who is trained in open battle techniches, that is to say facing an oppenent head on, would likely do better in open combat than a ninja.

 

Ninja vs. Samurai, in open combat? The ninja would more than likely lose.

They trained Ninja in stealth why? Because they had nothing better to do with their day?

And they taught samurai to fight in armor because it would help them what? Be better chefs?

 

You seem to think that I am advocating that non-pure dps classes should be panzies and not hold a candle to pure dps classes in combat, and for the life of me I can't imagine why when I am advocating dps buffs for all the non-pure dps classes. I'm just saying that the non-full dps classes shouldn't do more dps than pure dps classes because they have more options than pure dps classes. How exactly is it fair that a class than can heal itself, or tank, or sneak around, should in addition to having greater options also do better dps than a pure dps class who has no other options but to dps? Why on earth would anyone ever want a pure dps classs when a non-pure dps in addition to doing better dps than a pure dps class can also heal themself, can respect to tank, can sneak around etc. Yeah, thats real fair. So pure DPS classes are outdone in every way including dps than non-dps classes. Makes perfect sence. You might as well just get rid of pure dps classes entirely in such a scenario as they are subpar to non-pure dps classes. They do everything better and can do more to boot. That sounds real fair.

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
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Oh. I forgot we didn't do impside class names... Well, check out what MARAUDER means. Not so much of a warrior now, are they? And JUGGERNAUT? Should be able to solo any boss, since they're unstoppable. SNIPERS should have at LEAST 800m range (pff, 35m...) and OPERATIVES should be inside sabotage. MERCENARIES should get double the loot. What are they being paid for? And POWERTECHS shouldn't exist.

 

Marauders and Juggernauts are Both Sith Warriors last time i checked.

And why on earth should powertechs not exist??

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
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The thing is, if Snipers do more dps than any the non pure melee dps classes, these classes become pointless to use the other melee classes. I do believe the sustained dps specs for marauders should be the best of (or very close to the best of) the melee and ranged dps respectively.

That said, burst specs of marauders and Snipers should definitely not be out dpsing 'non pure' sustained dps classes, hence them otherwise being rendered useless.

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I recognize that everyone wants their favored class to be as good as possibly, thats perfectly natural.

Given that your excuse for marauder being the best class in both it's burst and dot spec is just based on its name, you seem to fall directly into this category. Unless you have something regarding viability of all specs in general and a ranking or proposed change(s) that stem from actual information, you're honestly not really providing anything to this thread.

Edited by AndoEyrune
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I'm by no means saying that. I am saying that in am open battle, because of the nature of assassins training [in this case we're using the anology of ninja/samurai], the samurai, who is trained in open battle techniches, that is to say facing an oppenent head on, would likely do better in open combat than a ninja.

 

Ninja vs. Samurai, in open combat? The ninja would more than likely lose.

They trained Ninja in stealth why? Because they had nothing better to do with their day?

And they taught samurai to fight in armor because it would help them what? Be better chefs?

Read url that i posted.

P.S. And as i mentioned Assassin MUST have better DPS then Samurai. Because Ninja (aka Assassin) kill opponent in one, max 3 strike, while Samurai can fiht for more then 10 mins and still do not kill his opponent.

 

 

Why on earth would anyone ever want a pure dps classs when a non-pure dps in addition to doing better dps than a pure dps class can also heal themself, can respect to tank, can sneak around etc.

1) You seriously think that DPS can easy respec to tank without gear for it and knowing skills of tank's discipline? This not that simple.

 

How exactly is it fair that a class than can heal itself, or tank, or sneak around, should in addition to having greater options also do better dps than a pure dps class who has no other options but to dps?

Pretty fair, because this class must do something that shouldn't do dd in fight. This "greater options" only work in theory

 

Yeah, thats real fair. So pure DPS classes are outdone in every way including dps than non-dps classes. Makes perfect sence. You might as well just get rid of pure dps classes entirely in such a scenario as they are subpar to non-pure dps classes. They do everything better and can do more to boot. That sounds real fair

Then, if Marauder JUST pure-dps and only reason why you would take in your ops group Marauder is dps, then Marauder shoudn't have X sec stealth skill, Bloodthirst and Predation. Why they need it if they pure-dps?

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I actually don't abide by the philosophy marauders and snipers should do MORE dps than the others due to them only having dps trees.

 

In any situation, having only dps trees assuming you master the class as a whole can be turned in an advantage as they will have three damage spec with their different pros and cons, and you can change spec depending on the incoming fights, assuming all three are worthwhile, vs other classes having 2 choices.

 

As a previous poster mentionned, its not that easy to switch from heal to dps, altough its still easier than switching from tank to dps. Still will require you get 2 full set of gear at worse, and all the new set bonus at best.

 

But mostly, in high end raids, most team members will be prolific in more than one role, but may not have the level required to clear really harder bosses or difficulties outside their main roles. I for one am a very good dps, but a decent tank and a passable healer. No one will clear NiM with a "decent" tank, no matter how much I can faceroll tank SM content or get a team of unbelievable bads through an HM FP. I know how to get threat, I know how to use DCDs, but I've seen really great tanks and played with them that makes me know I'm NOT a great tank.

 

So in the mindset I'm dpsing for an end game raid team with a class that is able to heal great (and my rpds main fall back IS my sorc) is about as useful as shoes for a guy that got both legs cut off.

 

So in my books, people claiming an advantage is due because its a "pure dps" class are just as wrong as those saying its "OP because its insanely high on the dummy".

 

Classes that bring off taunts and off heals are nice, but also normally mostly considered as not that useful. In some situation, it can gives the HOPE of a salvage, or makes thing a tiny bit smoother, but it wont be a game changer. Also, those classes bring overall less utility, often only ONE raid buff outside their "off spec" moves (heals for heal spec able classes, single target taunt for tank-spec able classes). Snipers in this regard could probably use something alongside their ballistic shield, but tats for another thread.

 

So a main role most not be mixed too harshly with utility, because if a spec is unable to correctly fill its main role in average circumstances, no matter the utility toolbelt you give it, its never gonna be enough to be worth bringing and taxing the other members of the group with the extra workload.

 

In short, its not because sorcerers have a strong heal spec that its "deserved" if they nerf their dps spec to dusts just so haters can "feel better" about their own classes that are not correctly balanced.

 

 

Currently, the spec over performing in sustained dps are arsenal and carnage, mostly, altough I'd advise at waiting before condemning carnage, many people use aoe to get the top ops parses on parsely, but still, its a bit too high for a burst spec that does 50% or so of its damage in 3 seconds windows every 12 seconds. And neither by a very huge margin, just enough to be noticeable that those two come up a lot. Very possibly nerfbatting arsenal like MM would ruin it equally.

 

Annihilation does good figure, certainly, but not to the point its crazy OP, but to the point its worth it to bring it along rather than another rdps, sustained or burst. In some very static fights its going to top the charts, but they are mostly older bosses, the new one typically involve a lot more mechanic and movement than EV or KP did at launch.

 

I've played a lot of MMOs before, and in MANY of them melees were thrown away totally because of that "dummy equalizing" mindset that the devs were convinced off.

 

So currently?

 

Annihilation is right were it should be. Its a good melee sustained spec, it has very high damage assuming its allowed to keep hammering at its target. Its good a good utility belt, and good DCDs, both softer on shorter cooldown, and harder DCDs on longer cd, to alleviate the fact its exposed in average to more damaging close range mechanics rdps don't have to care about. However its not very good at bursting something down, and it is also a bit trickery depending on what is up to switch target.

 

So assuming a switch to an add you have to burst down is coming, you'll mostly be lowering your dps a lot in the few seconds before it is expected to spawn to make sure all your hard hitters are availaible to at least gives a bit of "burst".

 

The issues of the pve game balance goes toward some spec, mostly mdps, but some rpds as well, that are not competitive enough in a raid. Trying to point out annihilation marauders as the boogeyman because one beat your dummy score, or someone in it beat you on a particular boss doesnt mean crap.

 

In a perfect world, you'd see a spec doing particularly well in some bosses, than another doing better suddenly on another type of boss, and the first few position switch on various bosses. And, I think mdps specs in average should score a bit over rdps and sustained over burst, and classes be adjusted individually for their various pros and cons to achieve final balance. But in any setting, the difference in average between first and last specs in actual ops fights, should not exceed a few %, giving at similar gear level, a good chance of a very good player of the "bottom spec" to top the dps chart when the "top spec player" made a few small mistakes.

 

Obviously, additionnal challenge also comes from the fact a game mode like PvP does no ask for the same strenghts when balancing, and since they seem stubborn into not changing the values/ effects of some abilities when used vs a player or a computer-controlled opponent, we're always going to see fixes to one type affect the others.

 

Like annihilation being currently pretty bad at pvp, and fixing it would create a PvE monster.

Edited by verfallen
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