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Is change of difficulty confirmed?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Is change of difficulty confirmed?

Unperson's Avatar


Unperson
10.12.2019 , 09:51 PM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
As a player who wants more challenge you do control your destiny.
Challenge is relative. Content that is challenging for me, other players have on farm. As a player who wants less challenge, you do control your destiny - learn to play. You're literally making a reverse L2P argument. I'm not offended, simply pointing out the hypocrisy.

And the only thing I've really endorsed is different difficulty modes for all instanced content, but that's apparently not doable with the current level of investment in the game. So a sort of middle ground needs to be found that works for a majority, not just the people that would rather just stand and cheer while the ship droid clears content for them. It may not be the best solution, but it's better than a game that plays itself.

And much as I sympathize with disabled people, it's not reasonable to ask that the game is tailored to such edge cases, beyond accessibility aids perhaps.

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
10.13.2019 , 12:04 AM | #72
Quote: Originally Posted by Unperson View Post
Challenge is relative. Content that is challenging for me, other players have on farm. As a player who wants less challenge, you do control your destiny - learn to play. You're literally making a reverse L2P argument. I'm not offended, simply pointing out the hypocrisy.

And the only thing I've really endorsed is different difficulty modes for all instanced content, but that's apparently not doable with the current level of investment in the game. So a sort of middle ground needs to be found that works for a majority, not just the people that would rather just stand and cheer while the ship droid clears content for them. It may not be the best solution, but it's better than a game that plays itself.

And much as I sympathize with disabled people, it's not reasonable to ask that the game is tailored to such edge cases, beyond accessibility aids perhaps.
You're presuming that anyone who wants less of a challenge doesn't know how to play already, which is a stretch. I certainly do know how to play. You're also assuming that people who are only able to get to a certain level of skill CAN learn to play better and that isn't always the case, given things like connection speeds, disabilities, age and reflexes. Challenging content just isn't fun for some of us who would prefer to enjoy the story.

If you truly want challenging content, you already have places to go in the game to play it. You can set every chapter of KOTFE to MM. You can do NiM Ops, ranked PvP and the many other challenges that the game offers to players who want it. A player who finds the tuned up story too difficult will have no place to go, other than to leave.

It's as though the game is a ski resort that already has plenty of double black diamond, black diamond and blue square trails - but the players who enjoy those are now insisting that the resort needs to demolish the single existing bunny hill because everyone needs to learn to ski like them. If you're going to accept hat different players have different skill levels, then the bunny hill needs a place as much as the black diamonds.

Tsillah's Avatar


Tsillah
10.13.2019 , 01:08 AM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by jstankaroslo View Post
Go back to 3.0 with open world, and just instance and level sync Heroics.
In this case, the vanilla planets would be unsynced, so that players can overlevel the content, max level payers can go back to planets and feel powerfully untouchable, This way even the worst player can beat any planet just over leveling it. Just as it used to be, the gear on vanilla planets would matter again.
But Heroics would be instanced and synced, so they would play as they do right now. People could still do them the way the do them now.
IMO this solution would be much simpler than scaling the whole huge vanilla game to different difficulty levels, and it would not scatter the population over different instances.
So on planet you could meet the whole population, the Heroics would be the place to meet players grinding them for levels, credits gear and etc.
I think you underestimate the effort involved in instancing the Heroics. Most are in the open world and would require new instances to be placed on various places, some of which are areas where other quests have to be done which then have to be changed as well.

Level sync is here to stay I reckon but to be fair, the bigger problem is that the game is just so easy now that it involves pretty much zero challenge. The problem with that is that people do not learn to play their classes in any way shape or form but do want to do group content l ike FPs and such and THAT is where it becomes problematic because they then make things more difficult for other players.

Overall the reality is that any expansion will bring back some people and chase others away. Change does that. But I think the biggest problem the game is suffering from is that there are too many unskilled players now because the game allows it and it has a negative effect on group content.

Story content is faceroll now and a lot of SM content is as well though that is clearly more demanding. But especially with the superfluous gear tiers we have people just feel like they can just walk in and win because they showed up. And when that fails with Master and Blaster for example they want the game to become easier rather than learning something and change their approach. Although I think it's good that there are different difficulty levels and not everything has to be hard, there is a fundamental flaw in enabling this attitude of not wanting or caring to learn.

It seems to me that when content is too easy overall people go through this content more quickly and the game will feel repetitive more quicky as well. I also think that the old set up without level sync on planets was more of a thing because it was actually not easy to go throughthe leveling content. So you could see it as a reward for conquering that content, or in other words for skill and effort.

People seem to mistake spending time with skill and effort. It's not the same and that's why content needs to be less faceroll than it is now.

I'm sure some people will disagree with me but that's where it's at for me. This attitude of rewarding showing up more than actually putting in effort and improving your skills is something that has been slowly sucking the sense out of many games. The groups in SM Ops today are dumber on average. Not because people have no brains but because they have been trained not to use them. If 6.0 requires people to get better even just to some degree, I think it will be a good thing and I'm sure some people will hate having to put in a bit more effort but others, like myself, will welcome it.

We'll have to see where the balance lies in that and how many people will allow themselves to adapt but 4.0 and 5.0 didn't do the game a whole lot of good. Whereas 4.0 initially brought back a lot of people and was successful then, it chased a lot of raiders away and even more when the chapter approach failed to impress people. Also the story, which was the major focus of 4.0 did not deliver for too many people. With 5.0 the story got noticeably better but Galactic Command chased a lot of people away. It resulted in server merges.

I think BW realised they needed to do something different to stem the tide and they have. Now I can't say for sure how 6.0 will be received in the end, but it was necessary that some things changed because in the end an MMO is about people spending time in the game regularly. Making content easy and thereby increasing repetition just isn't the way to go. We'll see how it goes soon enough.
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JainiaDral's Avatar


JainiaDral
10.13.2019 , 03:50 AM | #74
Been debating about saying anything, since I tried to raise the issue of the iRating buff in the PTS forum and it was ignored. Side note: I'm probably a mediocre player at best, so if I didn't have issues, you probably won't either.

Difficulty is a weird thing with this update. Planetary maximum health and mastery are capped significantly lower-- close to 50% in the content I had a chance to test. When you're doing open world stuff, honestly, combat doesn't feel that different. So long as your companion is about level 10, you're going to survive everything--including most heroics-- pretty easily at least on the starter planets. I got as far as Taris before feeling done with the whole experience.

There are some really tough spots here and there where you can tell Bioware hasn't examined the content at all before slapping a blanket stat nerf on everything. Most of those are in the class story encounters or instanced planetary quests.

After level 75, though, the whole system falls apart. Once you've geared up your level 75 toon in base 270 gear plus one upgrade piece, you start getting stacks of the iRating buff in flashpoints and heroics. For me, that meant I got about a 1% Endurance boost over the Balmorra cap running one of the collocoid heroics. And, apparently a Mastery boost too. That boost scales significantly upward as you go through the gearing grind, breaking level sync. From later information quoted below, the boost is an order of magnitude worse than I'd feared when I gave up on the PTS in disgust.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=969130

Check out the PTS Flashpoint Balance thread for more discussion, especially this comment:
Quote: Originally Posted by speedphlux View Post
The awkwardness of "Bolster" and its balance :
https://i.imgur.com/f3h08wL.jpg

Note that we're all level 75 and this is HS Vet Mode via GF.
Me and the Merc were 306 IR, while the other two were sub 300 IR. Difference in HP and damage dealt was incredible. It took nearly a minute and a half for the Sin (Hatred if I'm correct) to kill off one of the big droids, while I was melting them in sub-30 seconds time.
I have no idea how I got level-sync'ed down to 70, and got more HP than what I actually have while not level-sync'ed and/or bolstered. Usually I max out at around 250-260k health pool.
Note that the lowest-geared player has 2.5x less health than the max geared player.

So, level sync is totally broken. Those who have access to easy sources of endgame gear are going to have massive advantages over those who don't in non-instanced heroic content and in flashpoints, especially new players and low-level toons. Your challenge is going to evaporate completely, while those with lesser access are stuck with far higher difficulty. SWTOR players are going to have radically different gaming experiences in non-max level content.

My advice: if you're looking for a challenge in vanilla content, use your white acute module. Everyone else needs to power level. FAST. Gift up your starter planet companions before you hit the fleet.

DreadtechSavant's Avatar


DreadtechSavant
10.13.2019 , 05:10 AM | #75
"Is change of difficulty confirmed? "

No. you'll need to wait until it go's live. If you remember the PTS for Ossuss it was a lot harder then the live version. As you were give ungraded gear to try PTS but was doable in 230 in live. Well maybe much below that, just 230 was the minimal gear I used for Ossuss.
That's not saying this time will be the same. It may well be as it is on PTS before it was taken offline, but it has not been confirmed as so many in this thread are saying. If you read the Dev Tracker it does not say confirmed anywhere that this is the difficultly going in the live version.

Healing companions have already changed in live, further changes may still happen to them in 6.0 once it go's live. May change, is not the same as will change.
Anything and everything is subject to change before it go's live and further changes may or most likely will happen as patches after it go's live once the general population of players start playing. Remember if you did go on PTS there were not that many there. That and the players that were there were from all 5 live servers, so very few in-fact.

Unperson's Avatar


Unperson
10.13.2019 , 07:44 AM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
You're presuming that anyone who wants less of a challenge doesn't know how to play already, which is a stretch. I certainly do know how to play. You're also assuming that people who are only able to get to a certain level of skill CAN learn to play better and that isn't always the case, given things like connection speeds, disabilities, age and reflexes. Challenging content just isn't fun for some of us who would prefer to enjoy the story.

If you truly want challenging content, you already have places to go in the game to play it. You can set every chapter of KOTFE to MM. You can do NiM Ops, ranked PvP and the many other challenges that the game offers to players who want it. A player who finds the tuned up story too difficult will have no place to go, other than to leave.

It's as though the game is a ski resort that already has plenty of double black diamond, black diamond and blue square trails - but the players who enjoy those are now insisting that the resort needs to demolish the single existing bunny hill because everyone needs to learn to ski like them. If you're going to accept hat different players have different skill levels, then the bunny hill needs a place as much as the black diamonds.
Yes, barring crippling disabilities, anyone can get to a level that renders story content trivial with the new scaling. This is not a hard or particularly complex game to learn the basics of. It's strange to see you proclaim that you "know how to play" while simultaneously arguing that the new scaling will make story content so hard as to be unplayable. Meanwhile, most "endgamers" as you call them will readily admit that there are areas they can improve at. If you are averse to any sort of self-improvement, then that's a different matter, but don't frame it as some kind of inherent inability to learn that other people (not you ofc) may have, that design needs to account for.

As I said, tailoring the game to people with crippling disabilities or playing with moonbase-level lag is simply not reasonable, but I'm starting to suspect that being reasonable is not that important to you. Simply getting the story part of the game to be like a visual novel is all that matters, consequences be damned. Hiding behind people with disabilities to hide your own selfishness is trite and facile. Perhaps let actual disabled people speak up for themselves instead of assuming they need to be coddled, hmm?

To continue your ski resort analogy, you want the base game experience to be akin to staying in the bar watching other people ski. Developers have decided that you at least have to get out there. Starter world content is your flat base station where people first learn to move around with skis strapped to their feet. If you've never seen people lose their balance and fall there, even while standing completely still, you've never been to a ski resort. And yet, no one's complaining that such areas are too dangerous or need to be made flatter or less slippery for people who want to take it easy.

IoNonSoEVero's Avatar


IoNonSoEVero
10.13.2019 , 08:39 AM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by Unperson View Post
Yes, barring crippling disabilities, anyone can get to a level that renders story content trivial with the new scaling. This is not a hard or particularly complex game to learn the basics of. It's strange to see you proclaim that you "know how to play" while simultaneously arguing that the new scaling will make story content so hard as to be unplayable. Meanwhile, most "endgamers" as you call them will readily admit that there are areas they can improve at. If you are averse to any sort of self-improvement, then that's a different matter, but don't frame it as some kind of inherent inability to learn that other people (not you ofc) may have, that design needs to account for.

As I said, tailoring the game to people with crippling disabilities or playing with moonbase-level lag is simply not reasonable, but I'm starting to suspect that being reasonable is not that important to you. Simply getting the story part of the game to be like a visual novel is all that matters, consequences be damned. Hiding behind people with disabilities to hide your own selfishness is trite and facile. Perhaps let actual disabled people speak up for themselves instead of assuming they need to be coddled, hmm?

To continue your ski resort analogy, you want the base game experience to be akin to staying in the bar watching other people ski. Developers have decided that you at least have to get out there. Starter world content is your flat base station where people first learn to move around with skis strapped to their feet. If you've never seen people lose their balance and fall there, even while standing completely still, you've never been to a ski resort. And yet, no one's complaining that such areas are too dangerous or need to be made flatter or less slippery for people who want to take it easy.
I'm not hiding behind anything, I'm acknowledging that people in this game have different levels of ability, connection issues, and other factors that may limit the level to which they can play, and that some players do not find super difficult content to be fun.

You're claiming that everyone can get to some arbitrary level, while at the same time admitting that "challenge is relative." Meanwhile on the PTS level 75s were dying on Dromund Kaas. You're ignoring that there are alreadymany opportunities in the game to pursue challenging content to your heart's content, instead insisting that every area in the game has to be brought up to some arbitrary standard that you think is acceptable. Instead of choosing the challenge where it exists, you're saying everyone has to play the base game to your standards.

Your analogy doesn't hold water. People do fall on the bunny hill, and some skiiers never leave it. Some will never even get to the blue squares, but will spend the day navigating the bunny hill. That's not good enough in your world; you apparently think they all need to "learn" to get to the black diamonds.

As for those of us who "can play," but are here for stories, there's a time-value exchange. If something takes too long or is so difficult that it is stressful or requires a trip to Dulfy to learn mechanics, it becomes completely boring and tedious and is not enjoyable to me. I will not do the heroics on Ossus and Dantooine because I don't find them worth the time to clear; I won't go through the Umbara flashpoint more than the once required by the story because it's too tedious to be fun. The same way that back when I was playing Nintendo as a kid, I was perfectly willing to learn to get through Ninja Gaiden III but couldn't be bothered with Dragon's Lair because it was too much of a pain.

There's no evidence that the majority wants the difficulty in the class stories and heroics ramped up, and I fully expect that after the change the forum will be full of people complaining, and then leaving. The heroics on Ossus and Dantooine don't seem to be popular. If that's what you want, as I've said before, I hope the raiders and people screaming for everyone to be forced to play to their standards are enough to keep the lights on, but I doubt you will be.

In the meantime, I've said my piece and I'm not reading this thread again.

JediQuaker's Avatar


JediQuaker
10.13.2019 , 11:23 AM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by IoNonSoEVero View Post
In the meantime, I've said my piece and I'm not reading this thread again.
I've heard that before.
Hold water, a sieve may not, but hold another sieve, it will - Yoda..

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DWho's Avatar


DWho
10.13.2019 , 11:30 AM | #79
The change in difficulty as it stands from the final PTS version did absolutely nothing to address what the "we want a harder game" people wanted. It in no way made any content harder for the people who already found it too easy and it does nothing to cause people to "learn" their classes, rotations, etc because it only impacts the people who wouldn't have played the group content anyway. All it really accomplishes is to increase frustration with the content (or lack thereof). It was a total waste of development resources from that perspective, except that it slows down gearing by making battles/missions take longer, which is maybe the real reason for the change.

DreadtechSavant's Avatar


DreadtechSavant
10.13.2019 , 05:37 PM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by DWho View Post
The change in difficulty as it stands from the final PTS version did absolutely nothing to address what the "we want a harder game" people wanted. It in no way made any content harder for the people who already found it too easy and it does nothing to cause people to "learn" their classes, rotations, etc because it only impacts the people who wouldn't have played the group content anyway. All it really accomplishes is to increase frustration with the content (or lack thereof). It was a total waste of development resources from that perspective, except that it slows down gearing by making battles/missions take longer, which is maybe the real reason for the change.

You mean the same players who complain about the gear grind?
I agree it won't change much at all and that's if it even makes it into the live version. However you can always change your own gear to make the game more difficult, so really have very little sympathy for you. As for other players not been good at there class, well you can only control what you do. Personally IMO don't think you have the right to decide what others do.


@ IoNonSoEVero

I agree with all that you said in post 77. I just really don't see the need to quote the entire post. I do agree with you.