Hi Party Time Wakalord Flex Guildmaster here from the Bastion server. For those of you who don't know me, I've been a dedicated PvPer since beta, and the sith assassin is almost exclusively my character of choice. Though ToR is the only MMO I've ever played, I've climbed the ranks from a button-pressing nobody to a member of The Bastion's best PvP guild, "Hey im mvp." Over the last few months I've been slowly working on and adding to an in-depth PvP guide on the sith assassin. It's become quite popular, and can be viewed here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=548258

Does any of this matter? It shouldn't, but my point is I have credentials and when it comes to PvP I know what I'm talking about.

Patch 1.4 brought many sizable buffs to DPS assassins. No longer would we die in two hits, or be lucky to do anything more than a 4k crit every minute or so. Despite this, most all of the supposdly "good" PvP guilds (on my server, at least) still consider the class to be gimped at anything other than node guarding. And while 23/1/17 assassins are without a doubt the best node guarders in the game, I still strongly believe that assassins can be extremely competitive in a rated team's main dps train. Certainly moreso than, say, two marauders or two powertechs.

In the following paragraphs I will make my case for the variety of reasons you should consider running two assassins (one node guarding, one DPSing) in YOUR rated warzone team. This arguement is mainly about Deception-based assassins (mainly those running my 0/27/14 "Wakajinn" spec. As noted in my previously-linked guide I believe madness assassins are usually outclassed by their 30m Sorcerer counterparts).

1) Transitioning to off-nodes

Most high level Civil War and Novare Coast matches begin with both sides capping their respective nodes and then jerking around the middle node for what seems like a relative eternity. I've been in Novares where mid went uncapped for well over thirty minutes.

During the stalemate, one side will often send one or two people to screw around with the other team's off node in an attempt to divert people away from mid/just try to ninja the node outright. Be it one person rotating to the enemy or all eight, the defender is usually going to require assistance. Even if it is but one person rotating, almost every defending guild sends someone to assure the node remains safe.

Assassins can rotate faster and more efficiently than literally every other advanced class in the game. We have sprint and stealth, which is only shared by Sorcerers and Operatives, respectively. Both of those ACs are usually healing and can't afford to rotate. We're DPS, the role that is always sent to rotate, and we have the tools to get to the defending node more quickly and safely than any other AC in the game.

"But Wakalord! What if stealth is on cooldown! :[" Even if Force Cloak is on cooldown you STILL will get to the offnode faster than anyone else.

Ok, you've rotated quickly. But couldn't another class have dealt with the actual threat more efficiently? No. We have some of the best burst in the game (and no it isn't restricted by cooldowns. If you think we're useless without Recklessness I'll be blunt: you don't know how this class works and you seriously should check out my stream for some good ol' educating) and can kill those attempting to ninja cap extremely quickly. If said ninja has stealth we have a variety of tools to pop them out of stealth again or at least put them back in combat quickly (death field, overload, lacerate, mass mind control). What can Marauders do? Slash? Use a crappy AoE weapon damage attack they can't spam like us due to their resource bar? Powertechs and Mercenaries (lol) have their Stealth Scan but that is pretty much the only thing that can compare. Snipers can spam their crappy AoE. But neither can get to the node with the same speed as you, and the differences in stealth detection are unimportant, both in their differences and actual application.

So let's imagine worst case scenario. Two or even three people have rotated over. We can sap, low slash into whirlwind and do all sorts of other kinky CC silliness to delay until additional help arrives. Our CC is on par with the Tanksin that is hopefully guarding your node, and with both of you working together you won't even need to begin fighting the incs until more help arrives!

2) Damage

This is a fun one. How the hell can Assassins put out the same damage as Smash Warriors or Pyrotechs? An actual step-by-step explanation of this would cause us to lose focus on this topic's overarching goal due to the amount of typing I'd have to do. Also, it's redundent. As self-absorbed as this may sound, CONSTANT proof of our high damage is available on my Twitch.tv stream and archived videos.

While it is true that our burst is far better when we have Recklessness up, proper gearing (i.e. extremely power-heavy) allows us to put out numbers that aren't wholly dissimilar from the more "mainstream" damage dealers. What's far more interesting, however, is our burst in sustained encounters. Yes, better when Recklessness is up, but big crits are hardly all we have (for that see: Concealment operatives). With smart management of procs we are able to keep up an extremely high amount of damage that is guranteed to force helers to kite (which means they aren't healing) and snipers to leave their vaunted cover (which means they aren't doing damage). As long as you aren't using an unprocced Maul excessively there isn't really a problem with energy-management (I've actually been told by guild members that one of the reasons they currently weren't letting me DPS was due to energy management....Umm, let me, the assassin who knows the class and how to manage its energy, worry about that pls).

Due to Wakajinn's moderate use of weapon damage attacks we may not do quite as much damage to tanks as say, pyrotechs, but that is hardly a deal breaker. And still, it beats out Marksman Snipers and Carnage Marauders in that regard.

Played and geared correctly, assassins shouldn't have any problem staying competitive with other DPSers. But even if they do suffer by several ten thousant, they more than make up for it with their aftermentioned peerless transitioning and their...

3) Utility

While 23/1/17 is far and away the best team-supporting spec, DPS assassins like Wakajinn still bring plenty to the team. For one, we have taunts. Marauders don't have taunts. Snipers don't have taunts. Yes, Marauders have buffs that affect teammates within a large radius, but I'd only really prefer having multiple marauders for the Predation speed buff in huttball. Snipers have their ballistic shield, but that's on such a high cooldown that running two snipers over one sniper one assassin is a palpable sign of insanity.

Our utility is on a comparably low cooldown. And by that, I mean CC to hell and back. Low Slash is an amazing move. Interrupt things like Ravage, interrupt caps, use it and then use Whirlwind afterwards for 12 seconds and hey, your target is out of comission for a dozen seconds! Force Slow is amazing for kiting/helping your team kite/stopping the enemy team from kiting. Electrocute is electrocute. Taunts are awesome.

Your ability to screw around with the opposing team's backline (healers and snipers) is unprecedented. Due to our low-CD sprint, dashing through the frontlines is a piece of cake. Since Wakajinn's burst is so front-loaded you can give hell to whatever you want just as quickly as any other DPS (often quicker).

In the thick of the fight, we have no problem dashing into a group of everything and AoE taunting. Due to our skillset, it really isn't a major survivability problem (for the time it takes to do what is needed, anyways). Powertechs don't have that luxury. They can't dive into the middle of the team without a death wish. Positioning is much more important for them in that regard. Juggernauts can do this more safely than us, but they most certainly do not have many of the aftermentioned traits.

Again, imagine worst scenario. Your team is losing mid, and the enemy is starting to cap. You have a vanish, and can delay a cap for a very long time. While you probably already have an operative healer who can do this, it would be inane to ignore the fact that assassins can do this as well. And unlike operative healers, you can always stealth out and go screw around with their off node. My guild usually sends a powertech to do this if they don't want to send their own node-guarding assassin. All this does is divert people because they see it coming from a mile away. You can sneak up unseen and there is a very real possibility of successfully ninjaing the node. Again, no other DPS at mid can do this unless you're actually running a Concealment operative. And if you're doing that, you're in a pretty awesome and ballsy guild and I give you props.

Assassins are also invaluable in Huttball. Though in that case, I would probably respec tank alongside the other assassin and juggernaut (if I felt our damage wouldn't suffer too greatly). I'm not a fan of DPS assassins in Huttball due to our lack of leap. But having another pull would be invaluable and hardly relegates this concept to the sidelines-it actually helps it because tank assassins are godlike in Huttball for a variety of reasons (read da guide yo).

In Ancient Hypergates we have Sprint. So we get to and fro our node faster than anyone else. This supplements our already extensive utility.

4) Survivability

Ah yes, this is the big one. "We can't run DPS assassins because they die in two hits." I would have agreed with that notion prior to 1.4's changes, but not now. Blackout is a godsend for Deception-based assassins. I almost never need the additional force-regen in Wakajinn so Blackout functions exclusively as a huge 25% damage reduction. if you really need it, combine that with a warzone medpac. Given our passive talents in Wakajinn, that's 48% damage reduction.

Hybrid Juggernauts have 40% DR in Invincible. That's on a three minute cooldown. Snipers have their ballistic shield which is an AoE 20% DR that affects nearby teammates on a 3 minute cooldown. Bounty Hunters have 25% DR via Energy Shield. Two minute cooldown.

The only class that comes relatively close in terms of pure resistances is the Marauder. Cloak of Pain has a minute cooldown, 20% DR in Cloak of Pain. Unless your team is EXTREMELY coordinated it'll probably last the full 30 seconds. Saber Ward also gives 50% DR to force/tech (the stuff that really matters for most classes) on a three minute cooldown. Undying Rage is of course 99% DR at the cost of half your health on a 90 second cooldown.

Let's remember, Blackout is on a 45 second cooldown that becomes INSTANTLY available when you leave stealth. Open up in stealth, you have Blackout active plus it is available again. Since we're best at single-target damage (think Lethality agents and Carnage Marauders) there are times we can stealth out without using Force Cloak (which will also reset Blackout when you come out of stealth).

Basically, Blackout is awesome, better/comparable than most other DPS' DR cooldowns and should always be available when you need it.

And then there's Deflection, Shroud and of course Force Cloak. Given the huge amount of force/tech damage on most teams, Deflection can be saved for when you're really being targeted by things that deal weapon damage, making the cooldown a surprisingly small issue. Force Shroud is an amazing "OH SHÎT" button. While shorter than the Marauder's saber ward, it provides complete immunity. If a team wants you dead bad enough, even Saber Ward's impressive DR won't save you. Neither will Blackout of course, but that's why we have Saber Ward, yeah?

Of course, if a team wants you dead bad enough and they are skilled, you are going to die. But that's how the game should work. No class should be untouchable. So what happens if you get focused to hell and back? You still have enough defensive cds (again, on lower cds than most other classes) and immunities to do plenty of damage in turn.

Sure, dying a dozen times in a warzone sucks, but this is a team game. You can stall, distract and otherwise delay your death (better than most every other class) against even the most steadfast of teams, and in the meantime your healers are freecasting, your snipers aren't needing to kite, and your Smashers and Pyrotechs are smashing their heads on their keyboards and doing a trillion damage.

In other words, you are no less surviable than other classes, be it in a drawn out fight or being focused down quickly. And in many cases you are superior in that regard.

-------

So there are my four pillars of why you should consider running a DPS assassin on your rated warzone team. I hope you enjoyed/were enlightened reading this piece, and more importantly, I hope you will consider running my ilk in rated warzones!

Thanks for reading, if you liked this please make sure to check out my assassin PvP guide and my stream/archived videos @

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=548258

http://www.twitch.tv/wifileague

Very interesting post Waka, interesting points and such. I actually agree with you for the most part. I actually think there are a lot of viable options for the 4th dps spot, and it comes down to the skill of the players you have available. Honestly I think I would prefer a dps sin over a smash jugg on most maps (not voidstar) since juggs are so easy to kill. Also being able to sap cap with one of your dps would be a HUGE advantage in close CW/Novacoast/Hypergate games. All of that being said I'm not entirely convinced that sins would really be preferred over two maras, they don't stack up to the potency of mara defensive CDs. I actually would prefer a dps sin over a 2nd sniper on all maps but voidstar. I'm not entirely convinced that running a dps sin would be ideal most of the times, and I'm really not sure you would even want the sin on rotation (I still think that carnage maras are faster overall) and the sin would have to be really good to deserve a position, but I think with certain sins (I can only really think of a few that I would take on our server tbh) I think it would be a better choice than a smash jugg 2nd PT 2nd sniper or dps sorc, but I'm not entirely convinced of them being better than a 2nd mara.

-Rhaffus

This is a fun one. How the hell can Assassins put out the same damage as Smash Warriors or Pyrotechs? An actual step-by-step explanation of this would cause us to lose focus on this topic's overarching goal due to the amount of typing I'd have to do. Also, it's redundent. As self-absorbed as this may sound, CONSTANT proof of our high damage is available on my Twitch.tv stream and archived videos.

 

 

Thanks for reading, if you liked this please make sure to check out my assassin PvP guide and my stream/archived videos @

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=548258

 

http://www.twitch.tv/wifileague

you said it

How do you feel about concealment operative?

energy issues, horrible sustained damage and even worse survivability makes it a no no in rateds. Basically all the things people say about DPS sins, but they're actually true about operatives.

fun as hell to pugstomp in regs with it though

While dps assassins/shadows cant quite compete with the sheer numbers a pyrotech or smasher can put up i think having an offensive stealth class in your composition makes up for the shortcomings damage wise. As OP mentioned, most ranked games in CW and possibly even Novare result in a stalemated middle node. Having a 2nd stealth class to harass the opponents node is highly valuable imo. Being able to pull your defensive assassin and sending a stealth duo to an enemy controlled node can often turn the tide of a match.

Their damage ouptut is even as bad as everyone makes it out to be. The burst potential of full Deception/Wakajinn is excellent. Recklessness and some lucky maul hits can do wonders in assisting the dps train in downing an important target.

It's a shame that dps assassins arent being considered as anything other than node guards.

I've tried out the 0/27/14 build. I like it a lot, squishiness issues aside (compared to tank hybrid). Nice thoughts all around.

While dps assassins/shadows cant quite compete with the sheer numbers a pyrotech or smasher can put up i think having an offensive stealth class in your composition makes up for the shortcomings damage wise. As OP mentioned, most ranked games in CW and possibly even Novare result in a stalemated middle node. Having a 2nd stealth class to harass the opponents node is highly valuable imo. Being able to pull your defensive assassin and sending a stealth duo to an enemy controlled node can often turn the tide of a match.

 

Their damage ouptut is even as bad as everyone makes it out to be. The burst potential of full Deception/Wakajinn is excellent. Recklessness and some lucky maul hits can do wonders in assisting the dps train in downing an important target.

 

It's a shame that dps assassins arent being considered as anything other than node guards.

The burst is good. The question is, is it worth bringing them over one of the more establised "burst" classes? If you're bringing them instead of a defensive shadow I think you're kinda nuts, since no one plays the node guard game better.

You're argument is that the damage is close enough that the extra utility they bring is worth it. Mostly the ability to harass from stealth (since smash juggs and pyro PTs can taunt just as well). For CW or Novarre this might very well be true (though this would actually work better with a stealth two man team, and I don't know if you can spare the space for two of them).

For Voidstar I'm not entirely sure that's true. PTs have more 30m abilities to interrupt caps. The Assassin/Shadow has better respec options though for defense.

For Huttball I KNOW I'd rather have a jugg on my team who can respec into the better carrier, or the Pyro PT who doesn't have to respec to get his pull (probably a wash between the PT and the Assassin here, but then it becomes player dependent).

For Ancient Hypergates I think it depends on your team's strategy. Another smash monkey for the death fest at mid, or another PT for the same thing but all on one target, are most likely the better options. But no one can deny the power of the stealth harasser on this map. Thing is, 23/1/17 is probably better for the last second ninja cap (though really if you think you can get the whirlwind cast off I suppose it doesn't matter, and they don't break the sap it's a moot point). On the other hand, just the threat of a stealth harasser can force them to pull someone else off mid which means you might have the advantage there. Depends on if you wanna go for the smash mouth approach or not in this warzone, and that depends entirely on how your damage stacks against theirs. I'd say a DPS Shadow here gives overall more flexibility in this warzone.

So 3/5 warzones where the utility of a high damage stealth harasser might make up for it, and you have very solid respec options for the other two (though Juggs do as well).

Yeah I can see it.

I need to wean myself off Tank Hybrids for awhile and give 0/27/14 a fairer shake. Always *feels* so much squishier.

I'm definitely not suggesting you bring a dps assassin in place of a tanksin node guarder. Half the value I'm placing on the dps assassin is his ability to pair up with your node guarder and make an attempt on the enemy node in a pinch.

Maybe a comp something like this :

1 op healer

1 sorc healer

1 tank jugg

1 assassin (node guard)

1 dps assassin

1 carnage marauder

1 rage jugg/mara

1 powertech or sniper

I'm definitely not suggesting you bring a dps assassin in place of a tanksin node guarder. Half the value I'm placing on the dps assassin is his ability to pair up with your node guarder and make an attempt on the enemy node in a pinch.

 

Maybe a comp something like this :

 

1 op healer

1 sorc healer

1 tank jugg

1 assassin (node guard)

1 dps assassin

1 carnage marauder

1 rage jugg/mara

1 powertech or sniper

Yeah alot of my last post is kinda my thinking as it develops. See the part about Ancient Hypergates. That comp could work out. Certainly it has potential and I wouldn't immediately assume it'd lose to one that drops the DPS assassin in favor of another smasher or PT.

On the other hand Xerain loves to point out how 2 Pyro PTs can just run around melting pretty much anything in their path and that certainly has a lot of merit.

I would like to say that everything put there also describes scrapper scoundrels and concealment operatives as well, as we have ghost, which may not be as big of a BURST speed, but I have ran after an assassin using their force speed and caught up due to the fact that it lasts longer, so that point is a tied point, as I do not know exactly if an assassin can force speed twice up to the node, though I imagine depending on exactly when they hit it they could.

We can burst someone down between 35-60% hp without having to do much, which causes any non-smash monkey to pretty much just be defensive, or will die.

And to make it just as good, we can also heal the node defender a bit if the fight requires it, even in full dps spec, and have all the cc as well.

So thank you for making an easy argument for concealment operatives =P

I hope you enjoy your OPest class before it will be nerfed into ground

What classes do you play again?

There is nothing OP at all about any of our dps builds...period.

Hi Party Time Wakalord Flex Guildmaster here from the Bastion server.

Wait....who?

In the following paragraphs I will make my case for the variety of reasons you should consider running two assassins (one node guarding, one DPSing) in YOUR rated warzone team. This arguement is mainly about Deception-based assassins (mainly those running my 0/27/14 "Wakajinn" spec. As noted in my previously-linked guide I believe madness assassins are usually outclassed by their 30m Sorcerer counterparts).

I also love it when people in desperate need of attention try to make themselves sound important by "trademarking" builds for a class.

I've tried out the 0/27/14 build. I like it a lot, squishiness issues aside (compared to tank hybrid). Nice thoughts all around.

 

 

 

The burst is good. The question is, is it worth bringing them over one of the more establised "burst" classes? If you're bringing them instead of a defensive shadow I think you're kinda nuts, since no one plays the node guard game better.

 

You're argument is that the damage is close enough that the extra utility they bring is worth it. Mostly the ability to harass from stealth (since smash juggs and pyro PTs can taunt just as well). For CW or Novarre this might very well be true (though this would actually work better with a stealth two man team, and I don't know if you can spare the space for two of them).

 

For Voidstar I'm not entirely sure that's true. PTs have more 30m abilities to interrupt caps. The Assassin/Shadow has better respec options though for defense.

 

For Huttball I KNOW I'd rather have a jugg on my team who can respec into the better carrier, or the Pyro PT who doesn't have to respec to get his pull (probably a wash between the PT and the Assassin here, but then it becomes player dependent).

 

For Ancient Hypergates I think it depends on your team's strategy. Another smash monkey for the death fest at mid, or another PT for the same thing but all on one target, are most likely the better options. But no one can deny the power of the stealth harasser on this map. Thing is, 23/1/17 is probably better for the last second ninja cap (though really if you think you can get the whirlwind cast off I suppose it doesn't matter, and they don't break the sap it's a moot point). On the other hand, just the threat of a stealth harasser can force them to pull someone else off mid which means you might have the advantage there. Depends on if you wanna go for the smash mouth approach or not in this warzone, and that depends entirely on how your damage stacks against theirs. I'd say a DPS Shadow here gives overall more flexibility in this warzone.

 

So 3/5 warzones where the utility of a high damage stealth harasser might make up for it, and you have very solid respec options for the other two (though Juggs do as well).

 

Yeah I can see it.

 

I need to wean myself off Tank Hybrids for awhile and give 0/27/14 a fairer shake. Always *feels* so much squishier.

You shouldn't have squishiness problems in a 0/27/14 build. Between Sith Defiance, Darkswell, Entropic Field, Insulation(I usually take this over Static Charges because 4% mitigation through armor seems like better spent points than a buff to discharge which will rarely, if ever get to a 5 stack in PvP), a minute self heal through Death Field, and proper rotation of Force Shroud and Force Cloak(which resets your Blackout timer) you should have survivability on par with Darkness. The reduced cooldown on Force Shroud in Darkness hybrids and full tank builds is definitely a plus, but it doesn't really afford you much more staying power over good use of defensive cooldowns in the Wakajinn spec. The only real loss that I see with 0/27/14 is the absence of Force Pull. But if you rotate your CC's and reduced cooldown Force Speed, you shouldn't have too many problems. I personally prefer Low Slash over Instant Whirlwind, based solely on the cooldown timer of each.

What classes do you play again?

 

There is nothing OP at all about any of our dps builds...period.

i agree with you atm...i have a sin also we are fine balance wise..when that expansion hits we get 5 more skill pts if they do it when we lvl up..well if they leave the trees as is with 5 extra skill pts..us sins can make a few nasty hybrids..we will have the points to go higher up in skill tree..

this is all assumptions until we actually play the expansion..

energy issues, horrible sustained damage and even worse survivability makes it a no no in rateds. Basically all the things people say about DPS sins, but they're actually true about operatives.

 

fun as hell to pugstomp in regs with it though

Dear god, thank you, someone who understands the problems with concealment operatives!

Requests like a gap closer are the LAST thing we need.

energy issues, horrible sustained damage and even worse survivability makes it a no no in rateds. Basically all the things people say about DPS sins, but they're actually true about operatives.

 

fun as hell to pugstomp in regs with it though

And I'm also curious how you figure a deception assassin is better off than a carnage marauder for DPS.

On the other hand Xerain loves to point out how 2 Pyro PTs can just run around melting pretty much anything in their path and that certainly has a lot of merit.

I also want PTs to get nerfed so that deception build sins will be wanted for rateds more!

2x Deception variant built sins.

1 tank jugg

1 carnage marauder

1 tankasin (node guard)

1 sorc healer

2x op healer or 1 op 1 merc?

NO MOAR PT's!

And I'm also curious how you figure a deception assassin is better off than a carnage marauder for DPS.

a good carnage marauder will probably get around 600-650k in a full length civil war. I can pull over 700k without too much difficulty plus I have all the utility listed in the OP. The only utility Carnage brings to the team that Smash doesn't is a faster Predation (only matters in the first few seconds on WZ) and more roots.

a good carnage marauder will probably get around 600-650k in a full length civil war. I can pull over 700k without too much difficulty plus I have all the utility listed in the OP. The only utility Carnage brings to the team that Smash doesn't is a faster Predation (only matters in the first few seconds on WZ) and more roots.

You really think it only matters in the first few seconds of the warzone? Oh my.