Biggreen Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Bioware you kidding? Assassin always was a thisnnest tank -now lets look to stats change in 2.0 : 1. Damage reduction - 40% to 28%!!!!\ 2. Defence - 28% to 20% 3. Shield chance (without dark ward) - 52% to 41% 4 Absorbtion rating - 58% to 41% 5. HP - 27k to 30k (only 1 positive change) ??? this stats in blackhole dreadguard mix -assassins always was a baddest tanks and you decided kill it finally ? ty bioware.. and i will not pay next subsciption... P.S And btw next set look is terrible as always -i see "huge" love to assassins from bioware -you killed tank assassins ty Edited February 23, 2013 by Biggreen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
periphelion Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 This happened to all tanks... all stats have their formulas tweaked. Seriously, get a clue before complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midakg Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Mate, that happened to all of us, jugg tanks also, our stats are now on level 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternalnight Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 And the changes are mostly to the stats gained from gear. This means that anything gained talents/skills/buffs became is now even bigger part of your overall numbers so they became more valuable, so assassin might actually be the ones who suffer the least from these changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotRonin Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 The problem doesn't come from the decrease in stat, but from the mob you're facing. Many trash mobs in HM FP now have double attacks. When you're tanking a group of 5 adds, your dark ward last 2 seconds. When I did Cademimu, I took < 900 dps for the boss (with over 200 self heal), so for boss fights we're fine. For the trash mobs, I took around 2k dps @_@ when there were 5 mobs hitting me, and this is when I blew my cooldown. Mobs with multiple attacks really destroys Assassin tanks, and they're everywhere now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternalnight Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 ??? this stats in blackhole dreadguard mix And you are wearing the old gear, and still expect to see the same/greater numbers? Silly you. I would expect to see lower numbers even with the new gear from the new operations, since that is going to be the first and lowest tier of level 55 raid gear, so you should not expect to see anywhere near as high percentages even with that as we had with the last and highest tier of level 50 raid gear. If we had the same numbers as now, before we even start the first new operation, there would not be any room to further increase our stats in the other level 55 operations that they will add later that will include new even higher gear tiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taleek Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 First, shadows were NOT the weakest tanks, period. Second, this happened to all of us, and given Dark Ward/Kin Ward, you're much better off on the shield chance front than the rest of us. The armor rating could probably use some boosting, but one: that's what PTS is for, and 2: shadow tanks have never been about their armor rating. You also seem to forget that damage reduction is vs opponent of current level. When your level goes up, your DR goes down, until you upgrade your armor. Upgrade your armor and then come talk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdcommando Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 You forgot the +2% to healing recieved and the +5% healing pool. For those of you confused on how to use this. Drop and move the boss, swap and run to heals and back, etc. Utilizing this pool is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corran Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 seems a really easy fix for dark ward - make it so you can't lose more than one charge per second. that 'other' game did the same thing to bone armor for it's...um...knights. you know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggreen Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) Ok you all say that nerf touched all tanks - so why my powertech tank dropped from 50% damage reduction to 48%. and my assassin tank from 40 % to 28%??? same nerf? you kidding? P.S And new assassin set? you really kidding me? it f..ng damn goblin look =( My statement stay -global nerf of assasins Edited February 25, 2013 by Biggreen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggreen Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 i just feel i cant even tank with new stats even EV hm - which i can do now with closed eyes =( thats the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haksilence Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 This is a silly post. The level cap is 55 so its like your wearing 45 gear on live. Also you gonna have to remember the gear they give you is like tionese now. Kinetic ward was buffed... it was made free, procs an absorb buff, it just has slightly a longer cool down, not to mention the wonderful change to shield they've made. And the damage reduction loss was gained in the boost to healing we receive from this update. Please educate yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Kinetic ward was buffed... it was made free, procs an absorb buff, it just has slightly a longer cool down, not to mention the wonderful change to shield they've made. There is some question as to whether the KW change was actually a full buff or a pseudo-stealth nerf that breaks even with the explicit buffs, mainly because you lose those KW stacks *so friggin fast* now that it works on all K/E damage attacks. The functional increase in the speed wherein you lose KW stacks combined with the 25% increase in the CD makes it so that you're actually going to end up with less KW uptime than you had before by a pretty substantial margin. As has been said numerous times, if the developers are going to consider KW a constant buff, which they seem to have done in virtually all survivability calcs since the start of the game, it should simply be made one outright. The drop off in survivability when you lose KW immediately is *way* too big, considering. The only reason we don't notice it as much any more is because we've overgeared everything. I remember back at release, it was a major point of contention that only faded whenever gear started outstripping everything else. Now that gear is undergoing another reset, it's going to be a big issue once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omophorus Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 There is some question as to whether the KW change was actually a full buff or a pseudo-stealth nerf that breaks even with the explicit buffs, mainly because you lose those KW stacks *so friggin fast* now that it works on all K/E damage attacks. The functional increase in the speed wherein you lose KW stacks combined with the 25% increase in the CD makes it so that you're actually going to end up with less KW uptime than you had before by a pretty substantial margin. As has been said numerous times, if the developers are going to consider KW a constant buff, which they seem to have done in virtually all survivability calcs since the start of the game, it should simply be made one outright. The drop off in survivability when you lose KW immediately is *way* too big, considering. The only reason we don't notice it as much any more is because we've overgeared everything. I remember back at release, it was a major point of contention that only faded whenever gear started outstripping everything else. Now that gear is undergoing another reset, it's going to be a big issue once again. As has been pointed out in the PTS forums, it's quite possible that a rate limit on charge loss or an increase in number of charges would help offset the increased spikiness since 2.0. Frankly, I'm all for a rate limit (maybe 1 charge/s) as it will significantly smooth the DTPS profile, even if there are scenarios where we'll take more damage, and the smoother profile will make it easier for BioWare's flawed metrics to make an accurate accounting of our survivability. I'll be honest, subjectively I don't "feel" excessively squishy on the PTS except when tanking big packs of trash with no CCs. For larger pulls, as long as a couple mobs can be knocked out and the DPS gets the kill order right, it's not bad either. It's only when there are a lot of mobs to tank, a disorganized group, and a panicked healer that the changes become a real detriment. I still think that the design of Sin/Shadow in 2.0 is a little suspect, as the level of competence required of both the tank and their healers is higher than in live, and significantly higher than with either other tanking AC on either faction. If, in fact, Sin/Shadow is still the sturdiest tank by a fair margin, it's almost a fair compromise, but I'd rather see a rebalance that makes an experience with an "average" (read: bad) Sin/Shadow less painful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 As has been pointed out in the PTS forums, it's quite possible that a rate limit on charge loss or an increase in number of charges would help offset the increased spikiness since 2.0. Frankly, I'm all for a rate limit (maybe 1 charge/s) as it will significantly smooth the DTPS profile, even if there are scenarios where we'll take more damage, and the smoother profile will make it easier for BioWare's flawed metrics to make an accurate accounting of our survivability. The problem is that these aren't new suggestions: they've been suggested from the very beginning and, honestly, it looks like the developers are no more likely to implement them now than they did at release. Hell, it took the developers over a year to remove the Force cost from KW, something that had been mentioned as an unfair mechanism for just as long (no other tank has to spend resources regularly on a pure survivability mechanism). The mechanism I've always supported has been KW stack *regeneration* through the use of certain attacks or conditions. Imagine if defending/resisting an attack *generated* a KW stack or scoring a critical hit with Project, Slow Time or Force Breach generated new stacks. Either solution would solve the primary problem with KW disappearing too quickly when it's supposed to be a constant benefit according to all balance math we've ever seen, not to mention working better with the current stats (so that Defense actually serves a functional purpose beyond just mitigation, since, as it stands, the mitigation benefits are questionable at best) and ability layout (since there's almost no reason to use PA since it's so inefficient; getting a guaranteed crit with Project to generate 2-4 new KW stacks off of the KW CD could actually make it a *useful* survivability mechanism). I still think that the design of Sin/Shadow in 2.0 is a little suspect, as the level of competence required of both the tank and their healers is higher than in live, and significantly higher than with either other tanking AC on either faction. If, in fact, Sin/Shadow is still the sturdiest tank by a fair margin, it's almost a fair compromise, but I'd rather see a rebalance that makes an experience with an "average" (read: bad) Sin/Shadow less painful. I find it amusing because this is exactly how it was when TOR first released: a lot of tank Shadows were utterly terrible and, as such, the class/role as a whole had a terrible reputation; those few of us that knew how to play them and could play them *well* showed people that Shadows were *amazing* tanks when you didn't just facetank things. It seems to me that it's just coming back full circle, with bad Shadows once again being shown how bad they really are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haksilence Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 The mechanism I've always supported has been KW stack *regeneration* through the use of certain attacks or conditions. Imagine if defending/resisting an attack *generated* a KW stack or scoring a critical hit with Project, Slow Time or Force Breach generated new stacks. Either solution would solve the primary problem with KW disappearing too quickly when it's supposed to be a constant benefit according to all balance math we've ever seen, not to mention working better with the current stats (so that Defense actually serves a functional purpose beyond just mitigation, since, as it stands, the mitigation benefits are questionable at best) and ability layout (since there's almost no reason to use PA since it's so inefficient; getting a guaranteed crit with Project to generate 2-4 new KW stacks off of the KW CD could actually make it a *useful* survivability mechanism). . easily the best idea kintru has ever had. i would LOVE to see something like that introduced. would make the shadow tanking mechanics a little more dynamic and original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpftard Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) I will give the "Good Idea Fairies" on the Dev team credit for at least attempting to address the sustaining/regen'ing of KW issue. The 8% absorb during down time was at least an effort. Alas... Attempts and efforts only go so far since I'm still trying to figure the kind of math that makes 25% shield equal to 8% absorb Edited February 28, 2013 by Grumpftard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I will give the "Good Idea Fairies" on the Dev team credit for at least attempting to address the sustaining/regen'ing of KW issue. The 8% absorb during down time was at least an effort. Alas... Attempts and efforts only go so far since I'm still trying to figure the kind of math that makes 25% shield equal to 8% absorb It wasn't meant to make 8% Absorb break even with 20% Shield. It was meant to ameliorate the lack of it so that, while KW is down, you're at least getting *something*. Of course, as of the latest PTS, they increased the number of baseline KW stacks to 15 (I'm curious as to whether this will increase the number of KB stacks as well or if that is still capped at 8) to offset the fact that KW stacks burn off so quickly now. Nearly doubling the number of stacks is pretty effective, if a bit lacking in creativity, but I'll take those fixes where I can get 'em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banehammer Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 This happened to all tanks... all stats have their formulas tweaked. Seriously, get a clue before complaining. ^^ This. Stats are only relative to the environment and/or content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omophorus Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) For the record, as of today's build on PTS, Assassin just got *stupid* good. Force Management is basically trivial. With a decent rate of shielding, I'm literally not using Saber Strike because I can't spend enough Force (Force Lightning is obscenely Force-positive whilst tanking). On top of that, the extra charges in Dark Ward mean that tanking trash isn't a painful and dicey proposition. 2/2 in Conspirator's Cloak is almost a necessity now, because now there's significant opportunity to use Thrash, and Maul becomes very Force-efficient damage/threat. With the damage nerf to Shock, it also makes for a good stand-in to build even more threat than before. I'm having a ton of fun with this PTS build, but I do have a very real concern that the devs went a hair too far and Assassin is now significantly overtuned. That's not a problem in and of itself, but I'd hope it's addressed via buffs to Juggernaut and Powertech tanks rather than negative rebalancing to Assassin. They *finally* made it viable to do more than just Shock, Wither, Force Lightning, and Saber Strike (with the rare Thrash to avoid wasting Force), and I am digging it. With the sheer volume of Force that is available to spend now, Assassin is an obscene threat machine. Here is a Hammer Station from tonight. It was late, I was a couple beers in, made a bunch of mistakes, and was still adjusting to the new Force regen rate. There's a lot more on the table here (including getting DTPS on the 2nd boss down significantly by not being a derp). Far and away my biggest mistake from the night was not making enough of an effort to Shroud/Interrupt "Torch" whilst tanking the other 2, because 60%+ of the damage taken in that fight was from his flamethrower. DPS is up significantly, DTPS is down significantly, TPS is up very significantly, and FPS (fun per second) is off the scale. HPS will probably go up a bit too once I do a better/luckier job of using Energize procs to shorten time between FL channels. I frequently delayed FL one GCD to squeeze in a Maul so that I wouldn't badly overcap Force mid-channel. Edit: Bulwark stacks are still capped at 8, FYI. Edited February 28, 2013 by Omophorus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadecounty Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 For the record, as of today's build on PTS, Assassin just got *stupid* good. Force Management is basically trivial. With a decent rate of shielding, I'm literally not using Saber Strike because I can't spend enough Force (Force Lightning is obscenely Force-positive whilst tanking). On top of that, the extra charges in Dark Ward mean that tanking trash isn't a painful and dicey proposition. 2/2 in Conspirator's Cloak is almost a necessity now, because now there's significant opportunity to use Thrash, and Maul becomes very Force-efficient damage/threat. With the damage nerf to Shock, it also makes for a good stand-in to build even more threat than before. I'm having a ton of fun with this PTS build, but I do have a very real concern that the devs went a hair too far and Assassin is now significantly overtuned. That's not a problem in and of itself, but I'd hope it's addressed via buffs to Juggernaut and Powertech tanks rather than negative rebalancing to Assassin. They *finally* made it viable to do more than just Shock, Wither, Force Lightning, and Saber Strike (with the rare Thrash to avoid wasting Force), and I am digging it. With the sheer volume of Force that is available to spend now, Assassin is an obscene threat machine. Here is a Hammer Station from tonight. It was late, I was a couple beers in, made a bunch of mistakes, and was still adjusting to the new Force regen rate. There's a lot more on the table here (including getting DTPS on the 2nd boss down significantly by not being a derp). Far and away my biggest mistake from the night was not making enough of an effort to Shroud/Interrupt "Torch" whilst tanking the other 2, because 60%+ of the damage taken in that fight was from his flamethrower. DPS is up significantly, DTPS is down significantly, TPS is up very significantly, and FPS (fun per second) is off the scale. HPS will probably go up a bit too once I do a better/luckier job of using Energize procs to shorten time between FL channels. I frequently delayed FL one GCD to squeeze in a Maul so that I wouldn't badly overcap Force mid-channel. Edit: Bulwark stacks are still capped at 8, FYI. As someone who was happy about the tanks seeming to be balanced finally at the start of 2.0, this post is a soul crusher to me. Playing a Jugg tank myself, I was hoping the expansion might finally be our time to shine or at least stand on equal footing, but I guess not <hangs head in shame> I'm not asking them to nerf Assassin tanks per se... but do they really have to be the best tank for all time, ever and ever? :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpftard Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 It wasn't meant to make 8% Absorb break even with 20% Shield. It was meant to ameliorate the lack of it so that, while KW is down, you're at least getting *something*. Of course, as of the latest PTS, they increased the number of baseline KW stacks to 15 (I'm curious as to whether this will increase the number of KB stacks as well or if that is still capped at 8) to offset the fact that KW stacks burn off so quickly now. Nearly doubling the number of stacks is pretty effective, if a bit lacking in creativity, but I'll take those fixes where I can get 'em. I got a chance to log in this morning before work, but only for a couple minutes. The talent tree is still showing that it caps at 8, but I didn't have an opportunity to actually play around with it. Haven't really been able to mess with anything yet since it was late last night that I finally got my Sin copied instead of a series of fail messages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpftard Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I'm not asking them to nerf Assassin tanks per se... but do they really have to be the best tank for all time, ever and ever? :/ Yes:p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botho Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) With the damage nerf to Shock. Sry what damage nerf to shock, did I miss something? But all said and done, todays patch has made a difference, I went into Hammer station to kill the first couple of small packs with my healer companion. Was a single gold mob, and a pack of 4 normals I tried with, pre patch my KW was down on the single mob after about 5secs considering it was coming off in chunks of 2. Onthe 4 normals, well even worse. Now tho at the worst its maybe down for a couple of secs or not at all. And you can feel it. We are all in all still spikey compared to the other tanks but atleast now our main method of survival is a lot more stable now. p.s I dont beleive we are stupid good as some one put it, except in the context that before today we where stupid bad. Edited February 28, 2013 by Botho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omophorus Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) As someone who was happy about the tanks seeming to be balanced finally at the start of 2.0, this post is a soul crusher to me. Playing a Jugg tank myself, I was hoping the expansion might finally be our time to shine or at least stand on equal footing, but I guess not <hangs head in shame> I'm not asking them to nerf Assassin tanks per se... but do they really have to be the best tank for all time, ever and ever? :/ I think everything that was done to Assassin needed to be done, but now small changes need to be made to the other tanks to compensate. Before, we had a talent (Energize) that was supposed to be a core mechanic that we could never use because perpetual Force starvation meant we couldn't use the skill (Thrash) that would trigger it. In the first build of 2.0, that stayed identical, but they added *another* proc off that same skill (that we wouldn't be able to use either). That was fixed via Force cost changes. Our shield buff (Dark Ward) was falling off SO fast on trash packs that it was seriously problematic. They kind of brute-forced a change, but all it really does was make us viable on trash again, and effectively gave us a permanent +20% shield chance on bosses. It was a needed change, but it also makes Assassins even sturdier. I'm not going to sit here and say I have the answers on how to make Juggy and PT equal, but I'm sure people with more intimate experience tanking on those classes can offer up some solid suggestions. To be clear: I don't give a hoot about being "the best" tanking class (I think that should vary based on what you're tanking, and generally be lower than the margin of error of a parse), I just want to play a viable tanking class that isn't outrageously more difficult for a group to accommodate (which is what Sin was in the first PTS build). Sry what damage nerf to shock, did I miss something? But all said and done, todays patch has made a difference, I went into Hammer station to kill the first couple of small packs with my healer companion. Was a single gold mob, and a pack of 4 normals I tried with, pre patch my KW was down on the single mob after about 5secs considering it was coming off in chunks of 2. Onthe 4 normals, well even worse. Now tho at the worst its maybe down for a couple of secs or not at all. And you can feel it. We are all in all still spikey compared to the other tanks but atleast now our main method of survival is a lot more stable now. p.s I dont beleive we are stupid good as some one put it, except in the context that before today we where stupid bad. They removed the +Damage from Electrify, and replaced with with -Force cost. That's the damage nerf. It's noticeable. I think we are "stupid good" as we already had theoretically competitive (or better) overall mitigation offset by unreasonable spikiness, and already best-of-breed DPS that was limited by Force starvation. Last night's build drastically reduced spikiness (and increased our overall effective mitigation) and removed Force starvation as a consideration. We take less damage, we do more damage, and there should also be a trickle down (via Energize procs) to doing more self-healing as well. "Stupid good" is a relative term, and a *competent* Assassin/Shadow is currently in a very good (or bad, depending on perspective) place in comparison to the other tank ACs. Again, I don't think Assassin needs to be nerfed, but the other tanks need to be boosted to compensate for the changes from last night. Edited February 28, 2013 by Omophorus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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