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Imperial Intelligence (IA ending spoliers)


Path-x

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It is the Minister that reports to the Council to begin with. And even if the files were altered the chiefs of the operational divisions who are making those reports would notice that very quickly. Anything that is coming from Imperial Intelligence goes through them. And even if there was in fact inefficiency inside the Imperial Intelligence that is no where near a reason to dismantle the whole organization which is vital to the Empire. In that case you simply change the leadership. You don't destroy the priceless infrastructure of spies and informants and make yourself blind.

 

No matter how you spin it this thing will remain ludicrous.

 

Office of Strategic Services,look it up if you want a RL example to see how and why an extremely effective organization, that was vital to a war effort, can be decimated, torn down and reorganized into a shadow of it's former self.

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Office of Strategic Services,look it up if you want a RL example to see how and why an extremely effective organization, that was vital to a war effort, can be decimated, torn down and reorganized into a shadow of it's former self.

 

Extremely bad and inappropriate example. First of all OSS was formed during the wartime for a sole purpose to support the war and had a very short life. It did not have any real infrastructure. A lot of intelligence came from other organizations and various resistance movements. In many cases all it did was steal the credit for the information. And most importantly OSS did not have any role in internal security. Its dissolution had no affect because after the war it became redundant. As I stated before, a proper example for Imperial Intelligence would be NKVD or SS. While a modern example would be CIA and FBI in one.

Edited by Path-x
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Extremely bad and inappropriate example. First of all OSS was formed during the wartime for a sole purpose to support the war and had a very short life. It did not have any real infrastructure. A lot of intelligence came from other organizations and various resistance movements. In many cases all it did was steal the credit for the information. And most importantly OSS did not have any role in internal security. Its dissolution had no affect because after the war it became redundant. As I stated before, a proper example for Imperial Intelligence would be NKVD or SS. While a modern example would be CIA and FBI in one.

 

In comparing Imperial Intelligence to the CIA and FBI is just dumb. Imperial Intelligence can be compared more to the KGB of the former Soviet Union (which used to be known as the NKVD) which has become the FSB and RVS. Also the OSS eventually became what we know as the NSA (National Security Agency) which with the exception of some civilians is an entirely Military Organization. As to the disbanding of Imperial Intelligence whos to say that it isnt remade as a compeletely different Organization or split into multiple organizations its happened before (the remaking of the NKVD into the KGB, thenbeing split into the FSB and RVS).

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Extremely bad and inappropriate example. First of all OSS was formed during the wartime for a sole purpose to support the war and had a very short life. It did not have any real infrastructure. A lot of intelligence came from other organizations and various resistance movements. In many cases all it did was steal the credit for the information. And most importantly OSS did not have any role in internal security. Its dissolution had no affect because after the war it became redundant. As I stated before, a proper example for Imperial Intelligence would be NKVD or SS. While a modern example would be CIA and FBI in one.

 

Apparently you don't know the history of the OSS very well, it's neither inappropriate nor a bad example at all.

 

To this day it is still considered to be one of the most effective intelligence agencies to America, many PMCs and private intelligence companies or "think tanks" use their charter and operations model to this day. Spend any time in the US Military SpecOps community or US intelligence community and you'd know the OSS and it's operators are still revered.

 

The OSS was dissolved because of the friction and mutual dislike between Truman and General Donovan. You can claim any reason you'd like, but the OSS became one of many political casualties in America.

 

You other points are valid or have some semi validity and your comment about them stealing credit for success(sounds like any other intelligence arm or even Imperial intelligence itself now doesn't it?) so I won't argue with them.

 

My overall point was a very useful agency that could have evolved and been more relevant and useful than it's successor got taken down by backroom deals and behind the scenes maneuvering, I wasn't concerned with the various minutiae of each agency and how they are alike or differ. I forgot this was the internet and you have to connect the dots instead of assuming people can do it on their own.

 

 

 

In comparing Imperial Intelligence to the CIA and FBI is just dumb. Imperial Intelligence can be compared more to the KGB of the former Soviet Union (which used to be known as the NKVD) which has become the FSB and RVS. Also the OSS eventually became what we know as the NSA (National Security Agency) which with the exception of some civilians is an entirely Military Organization. As to the disbanding of Imperial Intelligence whos to say that it isnt remade as a compeletely different Organization or split into multiple organizations its happened before (the remaking of the NKVD into the KGB, thenbeing split into the FSB and RVS)
.

 

First of all the OSS is the spiritual predecessor to the CIA, not the NSA. The intelligence branch that reformed out of the ashes of the OSS was the CIG which is the direct predecessor to the CIA.

 

The NSA deals in SIGNIT,data encryption, wiretapping and the like. The CIA has its hands in SIGNIT as well as HUMINT,paramilitary operations, Pys Ops etc. Imperial intelligence surely had a division like the NSA but Imperial Intelligence's directive wasn't solely this.

 

I'm not really sure were you were going with the NSA being a military organization as Imperial Intelligence is at the very least a paramilitary organization with heavy ties to the Imperial military if not outright the intelligence command of the Imperial military and operating under it's infrastructure.

 

What happened to the NKVD and then it's successors is a good example in general, and probably more fitting given the politics of the Sith Empire and USSR.

Edited by Temeluchus
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The information has a weight and reliability attached to it. To every intelligence there is an enemy counter-intelligence which is trying to confuse with false information and is constantly manipulating the information flow anyway (you don't need Star Cabal for that). If you get a spam email from John Doe telling you that your bank account was hacked and that you need to provide him with your account password you probably won't do it...

 

.

 

I thought the point of having all these high ranking members of the Star Cabal was so that the email wasn't spam from John Doe.

 

When you're getting crucial intelligence from Minder 17 or the second ranking person in the SIS (both of which positions Hunter held), or the an important crime lord (Nok Drayden) or a high ranking exec in Czerka well...it's not exactly spam.

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As to the disbanding of Imperial Intelligence whos to say that it isnt remade as a compeletely different Organization or split into multiple organizations its happened before (the remaking of the NKVD into the KGB, thenbeing split into the FSB and RVS).

 

Who is to say? Perhaps you didn't pay attention when you played the game. Lord Razer informed the Cipher 9 of Dark Council's decision to fully dissolve the Imperial Intelligence and that the personnel will be reassigned to combat units. (

)

 

(This is also a reply to Temeluchus) I have never argued that the reorganization and name change was not common in history because it was quite common among the agencies. I wouldn't mind reorganization / name change in SWTOR (but then again that is not what Star Cabal wanted). I was arguing about the stupidity of the completed dissolution as it is done in SWTOR. To break down the priceless infrastructure and network of spies and reassign expert personnel and agents to combat units, well that is beyond ludicruos. When I was playing this particular part and when Sith said the Imperial Intelligence is dissolved I was like "You can't be serious..." but when he said the agents are to be reassigned to combat units I started laughing because that was the single most dumb thing I have seen in SWTOR so far.

Edited by Path-x
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Who is to say? Perhaps you didn't pay attention when you played the game. Lord Razer informed the Cipher 9 of Dark Council's decision to fully dissolve the Imperial Intelligence and that the personnel will be reassigned to combat units. (
)

 

(This is also a reply to Temeluchus) I have never argued that the reorganization and name change was not common in history because it was quite common among the agencies. I wouldn't mind reorganization / name change in SWTOR (but then again that is not what Star Cabal wanted). I was arguing about the stupidity of the completed dissolution as it is done in SWTOR. To break down the priceless infrastructure and network of spies and reassign expert personnel and agents to combat units, well that is beyond ludicruos. When I was playing this particular part and when Sith said the Imperial Intelligence is dissolved I was like "You can't be serious..." but when he said the agents are to be reassigned to combat units I started laughing because that was the single most dumb thing I have seen in SWTOR so far.

 

I'll have to refresh my memory on the IA storyline since it has been a bit since leveling my Op and Sniper but isn't the combat unit reassignment considered temporary?

 

I could have sworn Imperial intelligence was in the process of being reconstituted into a new Intelligence arm, this time under direct control of the Sith, that the IA would be put in charge of. Perhaps that was wishful thinking on my part and possibly some of my own personal canon and thoughts about future direction of the story.

 

I agree with you that the dissolution was idiotic just disagree with you that it couldn't be believably done in the way it was written

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So, the following information may be dependent on which IA ending you got. As such, I am placing some of the following behind spoiler tags.

 

 

My ending is commonly referred to on the forums as the "Batman" ending. With Imperial Intelligence dissolved, Hunter neutralized and a good portion of the Star Cabal's identity exposed and transmitted to the Imperial Military, the former Minister of Intelligence aboard the Tenebrus asks you to act as the Empire's "invisible ally, not answerable to anyone, not even a new Imperial Intelligence." In this cut scene, you access the Black Codex, erase all mention of Cipher 9, and either hand it over to the Minister or share it with him; that part wasn't really clear.

 

In that same conversation, the Minister makes two interesting statements:

 

*He states that the Sith have been waiting "for years" to get their hands on Imperial Intelligence's files, and now they have done so.

 

*He mentions that he does not expect to be a part of IA's "successor organization," and he hopes to retire. The last thing he said to my agent was "someone will be in touch." Also, I believe he sends in-game mail addressed to "All former Intelligence Employees" urging them to be patient while their new bosses get in touch, or something to that effect. He does ~not~ say "You're all fired, drinks are on me. Meet you at the cantina on Nar Shadda."

 

So, I'm assuming that at this point, (through Ilum, False Emperor, EV, EC and TFB), I am acting as a freelance Imperial asset, reachable only by some dubious means.

 

 

Based on that conversation, the establishment of a new intelligence organization, presumably "Sith Intelligence," is heavily implied. Since both sides are now officially at war, the Sith has lost over 1/2 their Dark Council, the Emperor isn't making any press appearances, and the Empire pretty much got their @ss handed to them due to their own ineptitude, even if the Sith wasn't planning on having a successor organization to IA, they aren't going to have much choice now if they are serious about winning.

 

Sure, it's possible that they will try and muddle along, using the military and freelancers for their covert needs. Oh wait, yeah this is the incredibly paranoid, xenophobic Sith we're talking about, right?

 

 

Maybe I saw things differently, but I always got the impression that it wasn't the existence of Intelligence that irked the Sith; it was the fact that for some reason, the Intelligence you started working for on Hutta evolved as a separate entity than the Imperial Military, and the Sith did not seem to be directly in charge.

 

In fact, their opposition to each other eventually caused the rift that made you unemployed. That's why just after your Prelude, Jadus was standing in Intelligence Headquarters beating his chest, ripping Keeper/Minister of Intelligence a new one in front of you, about how this is MY domain, blah blah blah, and how you were HIS agent. If that were understood, he wouldn't have bothered climbing off his throne to make the point. That won't happen again.

 

 

As disorganized and self-destructive as the Sith are, I would find it very hard to believe that Intelligence of any kind would just go away. More likely there will be an organization where the Minister is a Sith, or reports directly to and take orders from Darth so-and-so Scary-Pants. Since we have yet to see how the Dark Council will replace the recently deceased, it's logical that someone we have yet to meet will take the reigns and try and rebuild. That will be a cut scene I look forward to. :)

 

Are there breaks in logic in the IA story? Sure. Is there a ton of stuff we as "The Agent formerly known as Cipher 9" don't know? You betcha. Do any of us really know what will happen in Chapter 4? Hell, I doubt Bioware even knows at this point; but they have promised that the story will continue. As a whole. I didn't find the story arcs that unbelievable. But that was kind of the point of the story. You never know what is real, or who is really on your side. More often than not, it's your ally stabbing you in the back rather than your target. That's the life of a spy. *shrug*

 

* * *

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but isn't the combat unit reassignment considered temporary?

 

The game doesn't state so we are safe to assume it is permanent. Anyway assigning valuable agents to front-line units is pretty much sending them to their deaths. Once you break down the operations and call off your agents the established spy network is lost for good. This can pretty much tell you that the reorganization was not what was going to happen.

 

Based on that conversation, the establishment of a new intelligence organization, presumably "Sith Intelligence," is heavily implied.

 

I just watched Youtube videos of all 3 possible choices. In all 3 instances the Minister specifically tells you that the Imperial Intelligence will not be rebuild. In both light side options the exact quote is "The Imperial Intelligence is not being rebuilt" while in dark side option it is "The Imperial Intelligence will not be rebuilt". However in dark side option he mentions a possible "Sith Intelligence". So again, it wasn't a reorganization but a start-up from a scratch (read the upper reply).

 

So now I can safely restate my main argument in this thread. It wasn't a reorganization but a complete dissolution of Imperial Intelligence with most of its personnel wasted and infrastructure destroyed. This is utterly ridiculous and stupid and there is no way Dark Council would approve that (reorganization and change of leadership yes, but NOT this).

Edited by Path-x
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The game doesn't state so we are safe to assume it is permanent. Anyway assigning valuable agents to front-line units is pretty much sending them to their deaths. Once you break down the operations and call off your agents the established spy network is lost for good. This can pretty much tell you that the reorganization was not what was going to happen.

 

 

 

I just watched Youtube videos of all 3 possible choices. In all 3 instances the Minister specifically tells you that the Imperial Intelligence will not be rebuild. In both light side options the exact quote is "The Imperial Intelligence is not being rebuilt" while in dark side option it is "The Imperial Intelligence will not be rebuilt". However in dark side option he mentions a possible "Sith Intelligence". So again, it wasn't a reorganization but a start-up from a scratch (read the upper reply).

 

So now I can safely restate my main argument in this thread. It wasn't a reorganization but a complete dissolution of Imperial Intelligence with most of its personnel wasted and infrastructure destroyed. This is utterly ridiculous and stupid and there is no way Dark Council would approve that (reorganization and change of leadership yes, but NOT this).

 

Imperial Intelligence as we knew it is not being rebuilt, but the DS and "Batman" ending both seem to indicate a new Intelligence is coming into being with the DS IA being in charge of it.

 

The game may not say that the combat re-assignment i's not temporary, but it doesn't say that it is permanent either. You know what they say about assuming. If you choose to perceive it as permanent, well that's up to you.

 

Sending Intelligence agents in combat situations isn't a death sentence nor is it unheard of, all major Intelligence agencies have paramilitary units that operate in wartime conditions and NOCs and other field agents aren't exactly sitting in cushy offices, eating ice cream and playing hopscotch.

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The game may not say that the combat re-assignment i's not temporary, but it doesn't say that it is permanent either. You know what they say about assuming. If you choose to perceive it as permanent, well that's up to you.

 

Sending Intelligence agents in combat situations isn't a death sentence nor is it unheard of, all major Intelligence agencies have paramilitary units that operate in wartime conditions and NOCs and other field agents aren't exactly sitting in cushy offices, eating ice cream and playing hopscotch.

 

Well this was not about Imperial Intelligence having combat trained section (like special forces). I am sure it had this kind of section anyway. This was about drafting agents, spies and techs into front-line infantry. Most of them were trained in intelligence gathering and espionage and not in infantry combat nor had any combat experience.

 

It is not necessary for the game to specifically state whether it was a temporary or permanent assignment. The common sense tells you that sending (mostly) combat-inexperienced personnel into front-line infantry units means they didn't really value their actual expertise or expected to have any use them in the future. Lack of combat training and experience, front-line infantry assignment and heavy casualties in battle of Corellia would completely decimate the ex-intelligence personnel (and statistically it was a "death sentence" for majority).

Edited by Path-x
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This is utterly ridiculous and stupid and there is no way Dark Council would approve that.

 

Not at all. The Dark Council is mostly comprised of either powerful morons or powerhungry egomaniacs. t's no stretch that they would approve or accept the dissolution of Imperial Intelligence. What do they care, except what benefits them personally? Not a SINGLE one of them is what could remotely be considered a [for the empire!] patriot, nor do any of them really give a damn about the Empire as to except how it benefits them personally.

 

It's why they choose to dissolve imperial intelligence, why so many of their number are slaughtered throughout the story, it's why they generally just sit around plotting to kill each other.

 

 

Not that I disagree with the general content of your argument. I just wanted to point this out.

Edited by maxetius
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Well this was not about Imperial Intelligence having combat trained section (like special forces). I am sure it had this kind of section anyway. This was about drafting agents, spies and techs into front-line infantry. Most of them were trained in intelligence gathering and espionage and not in infantry combat nor had any combat experience.

 

It is not necessary for the game to specifically state whether it was a temporary or permanent assignment. The common sense tells you that sending (mostly) combat-inexperienced personnel into front-line infantry units means they didn't really value their actual expertise or expected to have any use them in the future. Lack of combat training and experience, front-line infantry assignment and heavy casualties in battle of Corellia would completely decimate the ex-intelligence personnel (and statistically it was a "death sentence" for majority).

 

Any agent regardless of their specialty will have had combat training, I get your point, but you are making it sound like they are sending out the lambs to slaughter which isn't the case. I'm a former US Marine and all Marines are rifleman first and foremost regardless of MOS, at anytime a Marine can be rotated into a combat element even if he was a cook,paralegal etc. They might not have as much experience as those of us with combat designations but they have the training and have seen guys like this excel and survive in combat.

 

The Sith probably did send the agents in hoping some would get slaughtered but knowing the Sith philosophy I think it was less about wiping them out and more about culling the weak from the strong for when the new Intelligence is rebuilt.

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Not at all. The Dark Council is mostly comprised of either powerful morons or powerhungry egomaniacs. t's no stretch that they would approve or accept the dissolution of Imperial Intelligence. What do they care, except what benefits them personally? Not a SINGLE one of them is what could remotely be considered a [for the empire!] patriot, nor do any of them really give a damn about the Empire as to except how it benefits them personally.

 

It's why they choose to dissolve imperial intelligence, why so many of their number are slaughtered throughout the story, it's why they generally just sit around plotting to kill each other.

 

 

Not that I disagree with the general content of your argument. I just wanted to point this out.

 

Well I agree with you on notion that Dark Council is made of power hungry egomaniacs but this is actually an argument AGAINST dissolution of Intelligence. The point is that dissolution would not personally or otherwise benefit them. On contrary, it would make them lose personal influence and power. The Intelligence was a Dark Council's tool, their instrument of fear and their eyes and ears. If they thought something isn't going the way they wanted they would replace the leadership and NOT destroy the whole thing.

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Any agent regardless of their specialty will have had combat training, I get your point, but you are making it sound like they are sending out the lambs to slaughter which isn't the case. I'm a former US Marine and all Marines are rifleman first and foremost regardless of MOS, at anytime a Marine can be rotated into a combat element even if he was a cook,paralegal etc. They might not have as much experience as those of us with combat designations but they have the training and have seen guys like this excel and survive in combat.

 

The Sith probably did send the agents in hoping some would get slaughtered but knowing the Sith philosophy I think it was less about wiping them out and more about culling the weak from the strong for when the new Intelligence is rebuilt.

 

Comparing marines to surveillance agents and spies is inappropriate. Marines are a combat unit (as you stated yourself, riflemen first and foremost) while Imperial Intelligence is primary a surveillance and espionage organization.

 

Edit: Replaced the "absurd" with the "inappropriate" for the sake of nicer discussion. :)

Edited by Path-x
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Each one of those egomaniacs would love to control imperial intelligence themselves. Not for the dark council, not for the empire, but for their personal benefit. That's what they're trying to do when they dissolve it. It just doesn't work that well.

 

Edit: This would be a nicer conversation without unnecessary judgement calls on other people's arguments like 'absurd' and 'ridiculous.' Just make the points and call it a day.

Edited by errant_knight
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Each one of those egomaniacs would love to control imperial intelligence themselves. Not for the dark council, not for the empire, but for their personal benefit. That's what they're trying to do when they dissolve it. It just doesn't work that well.

 

Well that doesn't work at all. That sure wasn't the way to make any control over it. They just lost even the shared control they had. :)

Edited by Path-x
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Well that doesn't work at all. That sure wasn't the way to make any control over it. They just lost even the shared control they had. :)

 

That's because most of them lack forsight, focussed as they are on their own power and little else. Not only are they narrow thinkers, but find their own failure inconceivable. If they were to consider that possibility, they'd probably think it an acceptable trade off for weakening a rival's access to information. We see them doing things that are detrimental to the war effort and the empire time and time again.

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That's because most of them lack forsight, focussed as they are on their own power and little else. Not only are they narrow thinkers, but find their own failure inconceivable. If they were to consider that possibility, they'd probably think it an acceptable trade off for weakening a rival's access to information. We see them doing things that are detrimental to the war effort and the empire time and time again.

 

You still haven't convinced me how exactly would dissolution of Imperial Intelligence benefit them in any way. Both in short and long term they lose a great deal of personal power and influence. Are you implying they are self-destructive or even mentally challenged? :)

Edited by Path-x
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Don't be ridiculous... Disbanding of Imperial Intelligence does not fall under "day-to-day running". The Imperial Intelligence is what basically keeps the Empire together and is parallel in importance to Imperial Military (which is pretty much the most important element of Empire). If Emperor or DC wouldn't care about that then they wouldn't care about Empire at all.

 

The emperor has been silent for many years at this point, the dark council has had no contact with him at the time, so they have essentially taken control of the empire. This is the sole reason that the dread masters left the empire. So when the Dark Council saw (thanks to the star cabal) that II was chasing ghosts, that it was not helping the war effort in the slightest, because all their top analysts were focused on said ghosts, that at least one of their agents was capable of challenging a DC member, and that this same agent couldn't be brought under the control of the sith through mind control, they felt threatened, they felt that II was a detriment to their power, so they disbanded it.

 

on top of that, there is no way they could manipulate the jedi

 

Because Palpatine didnt manipulate the Jedi at all... eventually defeating them and making the new sith empire.

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