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The Sith and "The Force Awakens"


TranYukon

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No, I did read it. My point was that Lucas said that the purpose of the Chosen one was to bring balance by fulfilling "the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe".

 

BUT Lucas changed his mind...

 

 

 

--In The Clone Wars the Father specifically states that the Chosen One is supposed to tame both the Light Side and the Dark Side and is supposed to replace the Father upon his death. The clear implication (when you look at Father's job) is that too much of the Light Side OR dark would have disastrous implications for the Galaxy at large.

 

 

 

--THEN to make things even better Lucas contradicts himself directly (i know a shocker), in the commentary for TCW: The Complete Season Three, where he says concept of bringing balance to the Force involved keeping the selfless (which he referred to as the light side) and the selfish (referred to by him as the dark side) both in check.

 

 

I don't really bring Legends or the old EU into it because of Lucas constantly changing his mind and the writers of the EU used what he had in mind at the time when they wrote their books.

 

--We saw A LOT that says there is both the light and dark side of the force always side by side and it's simply the choice of individuals as to which path they follow. (dawn of the Jedi is the best example here)

 

--Then he made the first statement about balance (my first paragraph) and this informs Plagueis.

 

THEN George goes back to the whole Yin/Yang thing when it comes to the Force, which is also reflected by in TCW Canon Dialogue. So when it comes to looking at the new movies I ignore Legends/EU as I can only deal with so much schizophrenia.

 

Trying to take any statement from Lucas as categorical is funny to me since he even contradicts himself/changes his mind (whatever) almost on a whim. He did it on Anakin/Vader, on Padme's death, on Jabba, on what makes a force users, on who the chosen one was (originally it was luke) and then finally on the purpose of the Chosen one and what bringing balance means. Just about every pivotal plot point from when he started the trip into the Star Wars Universe he has changed sometimes mid trilogy.

 

In the end we will have to wait until Episode 7 BUT even George changed his mind on what balance means... that change is confirmed in the new Canon with what the Father says in TCW AND JJ Abrams is director and Co-screen writer and we can see his take on good v evil in the new Star Trek movies, I think it's pretty clear that Balance means Force = Yin and Yang.

 

You're going on a rant that has nothing to do with my post which is why I asked if you read it. I referenced lucas but I also brought the new canon as well as the EU into it. I'm aware there's two sides of the force and I'd like you to direct me to where in my post did I say that the dark side is unnatural or was created by force users? This was never stated by me. I also stated in my post that it was the rule of two Sith that abused/upset the balance of the force and not the Sith as a whole.

 

I brought up that Anakin achieved balance by doing away with himself and Sidious. This brought about balance. I brought up the next incarnation of Sith will likely be very different from the rule of two Sith. Do you deny that the rule of two Sith was what was upsetting the balance? The Jedi have always strived for balance and it's why they don't attempt to eradicate the Night Sisters or other Dark Side "religions." The problem has been with the Sith namely the rule of two.

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You're going on a rant that has nothing to do with my post which is why I asked if you read it. I referenced lucas but I also brought the new canon as well as the EU into it. I'm aware there's two sides of the force and I'd like you to direct me to where in my post did I say that the dark side is unnatural or was created by force users? This was never stated by me. I also stated in my post that it was the rule of two Sith that abused/upset the balance of the force and not the Sith as a whole.

 

I brought up that Anakin achieved balance by doing away with himself and Sidious. This brought about balance. I brought up the next incarnation of Sith will likely be very different from the rule of two Sith. Do you deny that the rule of two Sith was what was upsetting the balance? The Jedi have always strived for balance and it's why they don't attempt to eradicate the Night Sisters or other Dark Side "religions." The problem has been with the Sith namely the rule of two.

 

Okay... I think I am seeing the confusion... I am responded to two people at the same time. first I was initially responding to this...

 

A lot of people seem to misunderstand what "Balance in the Force" means.

 

It does not mean an equal representation of Light and Dark Force users.

It does not mean the rise of "grey" jedi or anything along those lines.

 

There is no ying/yang that needs to be preserved.

 

The Jedi are balance. The Sith are imbalance.

 

The Jedi commune with the force, they see it as a friend and ally. They give to it as much as they take, always striving to preserve its natural state and maintain balance.

 

The Sith "use" the Force. They bend it to their will and take ownership over it. Through forceful means they subjugate it and exploit it for their own purposes, and in the process they taint and darken it. They throw it out of balance.

 

then you said this (you and the quote above responding to the same post)

 

This isn't correct. Look up George Lucas' views of the force and balance. This is not the proposed idea of balance. Even the novels disagree. Plagueis and Sidious both caused the force to shift to the dark side.

 

and

 

Don't believe me? Look into the Plagueis novel. Plagueis and Sidious together manipulated the very nature of the force causing it to lean more towards the dark thus throwing the balance off. You want to use the argument "Well, that's legends?" Fine. The Tarkin Novel is in the new Canon and practically confirms the events that took place in the Plagueis novel. All evidence points to the nature of the prophecy being the destruction of the Sith.

 

The quotes from TCW (the new Canon) and from Lucas (now) completely contradict these concepts. Lucas' views of the force and balance have COMPLETELY changed (technically for the second time) and this change was introduced and made Canon in TCW Season 3. Too much light and per the new Canon and Lucas now and the Universe is still doomed to destruction. Bringing balance was about keeping BOTH the light and dark in check.

 

The Sith and

 

Per Canon... the force is Yin/Yang. Per the Canon... the Chosen one was to get both the light and dark in check because even the light, if it becomes paramount, will bring about the destruction of the Universe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPx4NKQzGPo&t=767

 

 

destruction replaced by creation...there are some who would like to exploit our power, the Sith are but one. Too much dark or light would be the undoing of life as you understand it. When news reached me that the chosen one had been found I needed to see for myself.

 

in other scenes in that season he even speaks of how he felt that the Chosen one would replace him and continue his quest to ensure that neither the light nor the dark became paramount.

 

 

So why do I rant about Lucas? Because his statements and what he had included in Season 3 of TCW changed the entire concept of the Chosen one and the prophesy in one stroke. As such you are talking about an event in the EU book and a new Book outside the "immoveable objects" book that confirms said event but NOT the significance of it. The significance of the Plagueis events is now totally changed.

 

We are basically forced back to the "wonderful" Obi-Wan point of view speech... IF you want to try and integrate Plagueis and Tarkin into Canon. Yes from the point of view of the Jedi they threw the force out of balance. The problem is that was because their point of view stated that balance meant the preeminence of the light. However according to both Canon and Lucas BOTH light and dark must be kept in check and THIS was the purpose of the chosen one.

 

If you want to ignore both Canon and Lucas, knock yourself out. Is it annoying that they changed the rules on us AGAIN.... HELL YES it's annoying. Hopefully thy will stick with this new course. If they change it again I think I will be done with Star Wars though because I am tired of the rules changing every so many years.

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Okay... I think I am seeing the confusion... I am responded to two people at the same time. first I was initially responding to this...

 

 

 

then you said this (you and the quote above responding to the same post)

 

 

 

and

 

 

 

The quotes from TCW (the new Canon) and from Lucas (now) completely contradict these concepts. Lucas' views of the force and balance have COMPLETELY changed (technically for the second time) and this change was introduced and made Canon in TCW Season 3. Too much light and per the new Canon and Lucas now and the Universe is still doomed to destruction. Bringing balance was about keeping BOTH the light and dark in check.

 

Yes Plagueis said what you claimed BUT it was based on Lucas' 2nd iteration of what balance meant. Originally he did see it as Yin/Yang. The EU reflected this. Then he chanaged his mind to what you said above...the EU changed to reflect this hence we get Plaqueis. THEN Lucas goes to interation #3 (or back to the beginning really) and what you say above, in terms of Canon, is now inaccurate. All Sidious and Plageius did at best, with the current Canon view, was make it so the Jedi KNEW the Sith were still out there by their actions. Hence THEIR view of the balance was disturbed but their view of Balance is not the reality. Again according to Canon and Lucas the balance is both the light and dark kept in check.

 

"all but confirms" is subject to interpretation. The "immoveable" objects of the Canon include TCW which has the statements of the Father which I noted. Add to this Lucas commentary on Season 3 and this is confirmed in meta.

 

So per Canon... the force is Yin/Yang. Per the Canon... the Chosen one was to get both the light and dark in check because even the light, if it becomes paramount, will bring about the destruction of the Universe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPx4NKQzGPo&t=767

 

 

 

 

in other scenes in that season he even speaks of how he felt that the Chosen one would replace him and continue his quest to ensure that neither the light nor the dark became paramount.

 

 

So why do I rant about Lucas? Because his statements and what he had included in Season 3 of TCW changed the entire concept of the Chosen one and the prophesy in one stroke. As such you are talking about an event in the EU books outside the "immoveable objects" book that confirms said event but NOT the significance of it. The significance of the Plagueis events is now totally changed. Remember the Tarkin book is NOT Canon either. it was published in 2010... the New Canon only includes the movies, the cartoons and books published after April 2014. Additionally Plaqueis and Tarkin are written by the same author...small surprise they confirm events. regardless they are both Legends an Canon contradicts them

 

We are basically forced back to the "wonderful" Obi-Wan point of view speech. Yes from the point of view of the Jedi they threw the force out of balance. The problem is that was because their point of view stated that balance meant the preeminence of the light. However according to both Canon and Lucas BOTH light and dark must be kept in check and THIS was the purpose of the chosen one.

 

So if you want to ignore both Canon and Lucas, knock yourself out. Is it annoying that they changed the rules on us AGAIN.... HELL YES it's annoying. Hopefully thy will stick with this new course. If they change it again I think I will be done with Star Wars though because I am tired of the rules changing every so many years.

 

I never doubted that it was a yin/yang. Except that the Sith had the ability to create an imbalance. To cause one side through their manipulation to overpower the other. There is an integral balance but it can become out of sync. Even mortis references this. What would happen if the Father/Daughter aspects were destroyed and leaving only the son?

 

Anyway it doesn't matter. You claim the Plagueis novel was retconned by Clone Wars. It didn't. Nothing was retconned. The Tarkin novel came out AFTER the Disney merge. It is part of Disney Canon. It was one of the first novels to be part of Disney Canon. It completely states that Sidious goal was to turn the entire force dark and he was in the process of doing so. This is Disney Canon. This is after TCW. Sidious and Plagueis were phasing out the yin in favor of the yang. So the force struck back and created Anakin.

 

Read my posts you quoted. I never stated the dark side is bad. I never stated it has to be removed. I don't know what you're arguing here.

 

The rule of two sith were creating an imbalance. They didn't care about balancing both sides. They wanted to break the system and they were doing so. This is why the rule of two HAD to be destroyed. Sidious was not keeping the balance in check. He was destroying it intentionally.

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I never doubted that it was a yin/yang. Except that the Sith had the ability to create an imbalance. To cause one side through their manipulation to overpower the other. There is an integral balance but it can become out of sync. Even mortis references this. What would happen if the Father/Daughter aspects were destroyed and leaving only the son?

 

Anyway it doesn't matter. You claim the Plagueis novel was retconned by Clone Wars. It didn't. Nothing was retconned. The Tarkin novel came out AFTER the Disney merge. It is part of Disney Canon. It was one of the first novels to be part of Disney Canon. It completely states that Sidious goal was to turn the entire force dark and he was in the process of doing so. This is Disney Canon. This is after TCW. Sidious and Plagueis were phasing out the yin in favor of the yang. So the force struck back and created Anakin.

 

 

I think you are missing the significance of something. Regardless of who we say started the ball rolling on imbalance...the imbalance existed. The Light became too powerful as a result. As a result of this stagnation reigned and the darkness was in a position to take over due to it.

 

In order to bring balance Anakin could NOT just destroy the Sith...if he did there would be nothing to stand against the Jedi and maintain balance. As such FIRST the Jedi must be destroyed...then the prophesy is fulfilled with both Sidious and Vader die. The slate... in the cosmic sense is now wiped clean, the force is in balance again.

 

The reason I say the events in Plagueis are retconned is simple. First the idea that the Force created Anakin as a result of Plagueis' experiments was from when Lucas said that to bring balance meant destroying all evil in the Universe. This was hinted at in Episode III and then confirmed in Plagueis.

 

Lucas changed his mind on that though and specifically stated that the Chosen one had to keep both in check, not just destroy all evil and so the raison detre behind this explanation is gone. Hence we need to go back to the original Phantom Menace explanation that he was simply brought about by "the force" with no outside influence.

 

So when we look at Lucas' new theory and the quotes of Father we have little choice but to retcon. If we don't none of it makes sense. I mean how does it make sense that Lucas says the Jedi order had to be knocked down by the Chosen One as well to return balance to the force IF Sidious was the threat to said balance?

 

The only way it makes sense then is say that "imbalance" that the Jedi "sense" is not an imbalance in the Universal sense...it is an imbalance from "tehir point of view". They saw what they were trying to achieve (the destruction of the Sith) as being balance so when darkness becomes too powerful the force is unbalanced. This is pure hubris.

 

Both were issues. The Jedi had become too powerful and the stagnation brought about by their centuries in power was going to allow the Sith to become too powerful. The board had to be wiped clean for balance to be restored. Hence the Chosen one fulfills his destiny not only by destroying the Sith but the Jedi order as well.

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I think you are missing the significance of something. Regardless of who we say started the ball rolling on imbalance...the imbalance existed. The Light became too powerful as a result. As a result of this stagnation reigned and the darkness was in a position to take over due to it.

 

In order to bring balance Anakin could NOT just destroy the Sith...if he did there would be nothing to stand against the Jedi and maintain balance. As such FIRST the Jedi must be destroyed...then the prophesy is fulfilled with both Sidious and Vader die. The slate... in the cosmic sense is now wiped clean, the force is in balance again.

 

The reason I say the events in Plagueis are retconned is simple. First the idea that the Force created Anakin as a result of Plagueis' experiments was from when Lucas said that to bring balance meant destroying all evil in the Universe. This was hinted at in Episode III and then confirmed in Plagueis.

 

Lucas changed his mind on that though and specifically stated that the Chosen one had to keep both in check, not just destroy all evil and so the raison detre behind this explanation is gone. Hence we need to go back to the original Phantom Menace explanation that he was simply brought about by "the force" with no outside influence.

 

So when we look at Lucas' new theory and the quotes of Father we have little choice but to retcon. If we don't none of it makes sense. I mean how does it make sense that Lucas says the Jedi order had to be knocked down by the Chosen One as well to return balance to the force IF Sidious was the threat to said balance?

 

The only way it makes sense then is say that "imbalance" that the Jedi "sense" is not an imbalance in the Universal sense...it is an imbalance from "tehir point of view". They saw what they were trying to achieve (the destruction of the Sith) as being balance so when darkness becomes too powerful the force is unbalanced. This is pure hubris.

 

Both were issues. The Jedi had become too powerful and the stagnation brought about by their centuries in power was going to allow the Sith to become too powerful. The board had to be wiped clean for balance to be restored. Hence the Chosen one fulfills his destiny not only by destroying the Sith but the Jedi order as well.

 

When did Lucas say the Jedi order had to be knocked out? Also the events in the plagueis novel were not retconned. I said this repeatedly. The Tarkin novel confirmed that Sidious was turning the entire force dark. This novel was released after the merge and after TCW. You can claim it doesn't make sense. Let's put it this way. Disney approved that Sidious = Turning the entire force dark which started with his master. Where did anything say the Jedi were the ones causing the imbalance? You realize number of Jedi/Number of Sith isn't what determines balance?

 

The Jedi follow the will of the force. They don't remove dark side influence. They didn't destroy dark side philosophies. They didn't try to change the very nature of the force. If the force's will is for the Jedi to do nothing in a conflict the Jedi choose to do nothing. Even if it means letting innocent people die. The Jedi serve the force. It's always been this way.

 

What you're saying is only your own interpretation. Care to provide proof that the Jedi were causing an imbalance? The Tarkin novel aka Disney Approved Canon seems to disagree.

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When did Lucas say the Jedi order had to be knocked out? Also the events in the plagueis novel were not retconned. I said this repeatedly. The Tarkin novel confirmed that Sidious was turning the entire force dark. This novel was released after the merge and after TCW. You can claim it doesn't make sense. Let's put it this way. Disney approved that Sidious = Turning the entire force dark which started with his master. Where did anything say the Jedi were the ones causing the imbalance? You realize number of Jedi/Number of Sith isn't what determines balance?

 

The Jedi follow the will of the force. They don't remove dark side influence. They didn't destroy dark side philosophies. They didn't try to change the very nature of the force. If the force's will is for the Jedi to do nothing in a conflict the Jedi choose to do nothing. Even if it means letting innocent people die. The Jedi serve the force. It's always been this way.

 

What you're saying is only your own interpretation. Care to provide proof that the Jedi were causing an imbalance? The Tarkin novel aka Disney Approved Canon seems to disagree.

 

In the commentary of the TCW Complete season 3 he changes the purpose of the Chosen one. Originally when he commented on Episode II he stated the purpose of the chosen one, and bringing balance to the force, was to simply destroy the Sith and thus "destroy all evil in the galaxy." THEN in the TCW season three commentary he stated that the purpose of the Chosen One was to check BOTH the light side and the dark side and thus bring balance to the force... not just check Sidious.

 

No longer do the Jedi serve the balance. They simply serve the Light and as the father says if either the light or the dark grows too powerful it is BAD for the Universe.

 

Also I do not see the Tarkin novel as contradicting.. with this in mind of course. It states a point of view. Neither the Jedi nor the Sith would dare acknowledge what the Father states and Lucas confirms in the commentary. They are trapped in their individual world views informed by millenia of warfare. Also, being further meta, you can't forget that the author of Tarkin is the same as Plagueis, this however would be a VERY minor point when compared to the rest.

 

He did what he has always done. He (or one of his staff) came up with what he thought was a cooler idea in the Storyline that introduced the father etc in season 3 episdoe 15. So now the point of the Chosen one was to prevent either the light or the dark from becoming preeminent. There is even the episode (I think 17) where the Son shows Anakin that he WILL go to the darkside as part of his destiny as the Chosen one and the Father wipes that memory from Anakin's mind (it shows the lava planet thing). Why must he go to the Darkside? Because he must also "reset" the Jedi order.

 

The only difference between this and Anakin =/= vader to Anakin = vader is that he didn't have the opportunity to have a convenient Obi-Wan "point of view" speech...he only had his commentary in TCW Season 3 so its in part Canon (Father's speech) and in part Meta. You have to tie the two together.

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In the commentary of the TCW Complete season 3 he changes the purpose of the Chosen one. Originally when he commented on Episode II he stated the purpose of the chosen one, and bringing balance to the force, was to simply destroy the Sith and thus "destroy all evil in the galaxy." THEN in the TCW season three commentary he stated that the purpose of the Chosen One was to check BOTH the light side and the dark side and thus bring balance to the force... not just check Sidious.

 

No longer do the Jedi serve the balance. They simply serve the Light and as the father says if either the light or the dark grows too powerful it is BAD for the Universe.

 

Also I do not see the Tarkin novel as contradicting.. with this in mind of course. It states a point of view. Neither the Jedi nor the Sith would dare acknowledge what the Father states and Lucas confirms in the commentary. They are trapped in their individual world views informed by millenia of warfare. Also, being further meta, you can't forget that the author of Tarkin is the same as Plagueis, this however would be a VERY minor point when compared to the rest.

 

He did what he has always done. He (or one of his staff) came up with what he thought was a cooler idea in the Storyline that introduced the father etc in season 3 episdoe 15. So now the point of the Chosen one was to prevent either the light or the dark from becoming preeminent. There is even the episode (I think 17) where the Son shows Anakin that he WILL go to the darkside as part of his destiny as the Chosen one and the Father wipes that memory from Anakin's mind (it shows the lava planet thing). Why must he go to the Darkside? Because he must also "reset" the Jedi order.

 

The only difference between this and Anakin =/= vader to Anakin = vader is that he didn't have the opportunity to have a convenient Obi-Wan "point of view" speech...he only had his commentary in TCW Season 3 so its in part Canon (Father's speech) and in part Meta. You have to tie the two together.

 

Okay. So aside from the Jedi "Needing" to be wiped out bit we are mostly in agreement then. I was confused at first what exactly you were arguing. I agreed that there's two sides of the force that are both necessary. I also stated that the Sith were imbalancing the force via Sidious' machinations. The only thing we're not in total agreement with is the Jedi causing an imbalance as well. One can also make the argument that Anakin had to fall in order to get close to Sidious in order for him to destroy him. That given his very nature it was an inevitable conclusion.

 

Regardless this last part will be revealed in the new canon. Either by the end of rebels or at the start of the new movie. I think it's too early to completely say yes or no right off the bat but we are mostly agreeing here. I did not use Lucas as a be all end all. In fact, in another thread, I chastised someone for only using Lucas as well in claiming that he's become irrelevant at this point. I am just as interested as you are to see what Disney's stance is for sure.

 

I am also not fully convinced that the EU will become as balanced as some of us older fans will like. Multiple authors just begs for slip ups, inconsistencies, and contradictions. In the new books I'm seeing many of the same mistakes. However, being a big fan of the old EU and learning to turn a blind eye to the more.. bad aspects of it allows me to be more tolerable. In the end, it's star wars and I want to see how it will flow.

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Okay. So aside from the Jedi "Needing" to be wiped out bit we are mostly in agreement then. I was confused at first what exactly you were arguing. I agreed that there's two sides of the force that are both necessary. I also stated that the Sith were imbalancing the force via Sidious' machinations. The only thing we're not in total agreement with is the Jedi causing an imbalance as well. One can also make the argument that Anakin had to fall in order to get close to Sidious in order for him to destroy him. That given his very nature it was an inevitable conclusion.

 

Regardless this last part will be revealed in the new canon. Either by the end of rebels or at the start of the new movie. I think it's too early to completely say yes or no right off the bat but we are mostly agreeing here. I did not use Lucas as a be all end all. In fact, in another thread, I chastised someone for only using Lucas as well in claiming that he's become irrelevant at this point. I am just as interested as you are to see what Disney's stance is for sure.

 

I am also not fully convinced that the EU will become as balanced as some of us older fans will like. Multiple authors just begs for slip ups, inconsistencies, and contradictions. In the new books I'm seeing many of the same mistakes. However, being a big fan of the old EU and learning to turn a blind eye to the more.. bad aspects of it allows me to be more tolerable. In the end, it's star wars and I want to see how it will flow.

 

I would not have come to my conclusion if not for 2 things. Lucas in his complete season 3 commentary AND the various statements by the father and the course of season 3's episodes 15-17. Add to this that the movies and cartoons are the immovable objects and I was like... okay this is what we have.

 

I definitely agree with your last bit btw. On top of what you note (multiple authors) you have Lucas' influence. The writers, I believe, did their darndest (when i came to the general philosophies) in their time to stay true to what Lucas said.

 

Problem is he changed more than once on a lot of things....so really the EU is split into eras of a sort...that is one of the reasons I think they wrote into the C-Canon rules that "new" C-Canon, over wrote old... otherwise you would have the contradiction of Lucas' own changes spiraling throughout C-Canon.

 

In the end Disney said that the 6 screenplays and 2 cartoons are the "immovable objects" that everything else will revolve around BUT that the new writers can cherry pick what they think is cool from what is now referred to as Legends. So we shall see. Remember the following though... first look at what JJ did to Star Trek. Next remember that his co-writer wanted to have han die in Episode 6, that he wanted Luke riding off into the sunset like Shane

or a spaghetti western "hero".

 

Its going to be a fun ride for me... I suspect a WHOLE bunch of people are going to be royally pissed off though lol.

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I would not have come to my conclusion if not for 2 things. Lucas in his complete season 3 commentary AND the various statements by the father and the course of season 3's episodes 15-17. Add to this that the movies and cartoons are the immovable objects and I was like... okay this is what we have.

 

I definitely agree with your last bit btw. On top of what you note (multiple authors) you have Lucas' influence. The writers, I believe, did their darndest (when i came to the general philosophies) in their time to stay true to what Lucas said.

 

Problem is he changed more than once on a lot of things....so really the EU is split into eras of a sort...that is one of the reasons I think they wrote into the C-Canon rules that "new" C-Canon, over wrote old... otherwise you would have the contradiction of Lucas' own changes spiraling throughout C-Canon.

 

In the end Disney said that the 6 screenplays and 2 cartoons are the "immovable objects" that everything else will revolve around BUT that the new writers can cherry pick what they think is cool from what is now referred to as Legends. So we shall see. Remember the following though... first look at what JJ did to Star Trek. Next remember that his co-writer wanted to have han die in Episode 6, that he wanted Luke riding off into the sunset like Shane

or a spaghetti western "hero".

 

Its going to be a fun ride for me... I suspect a WHOLE bunch of people are going to be royally pissed off though lol.

 

The problem is that they want different producers/directors for the different movies. This means that JJ will deal with episode 7 but 8-9 will be subject to different directors/producers (unless this stance changed.) This also can change the tone, pace, and feel of the movies. It's much like having different authors and I've seen franchises suffer for it. I hope the same doesn't happen here but when it comes to Star Wars I'm skeptical. That being said, I think Disney holding the reigns is 1000 times better than it still being Lucas. I'm not hating on Disney nor am I saying they will fail but there are some concerns. I think every fan has a few concerns.

 

I really wish Abrams would control it all the way through. A single director/producer is better than multiple different ones.

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The problem is that they want different producers/directors for the different movies. This means that JJ will deal with episode 7 but 8-9 will be subject to different directors/producers (unless this stance changed.) This also can change the tone, pace, and feel of the movies. It's much like having different authors and I've seen franchises suffer for it. I hope the same doesn't happen here but when it comes to Star Wars I'm skeptical. That being said, I think Disney holding the reigns is 1000 times better than it still being Lucas. I'm not hating on Disney nor am I saying they will fail but there are some concerns. I think every fan has a few concerns.

 

I really wish Abrams would control it all the way through. A single director/producer is better than multiple different ones.

 

 

Agreed again on that last bit... at a minimum they should have the same producers. I had thought that the side movies were definitely separate and the "main" movies were up in the air... examnple... the first movie does well there is an option to retain JJ...BUT they didn't want it written in stone. We'll see though. Regardless the first main movie almost HAS to set the tone/philosophy for the other 2 OR it's gonna be a sh&t show.

 

I thought that is what they brought Kasdan on as co-writer. He was co-writer on Empire and as much as Lucas had a co-writer credit on RotJ, Kasdan took Lucas' last screenplay and basically rewrote it on his own into a coherent narrative so in the end Lucas should hae had a "story by" and not screen writer credit.

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Personally not to concerned about the multiple director thing, after all the Original Trilogy had 1 Director per movie, but for the 3 movies you really need the same "vision" kind of thing, but getting different directors for each different movies tone I consider a good thing. Even the Marvel Movie universe is not using the same director every time, but again it has that same vision and producers and the like. A group effort to make a good compelling universe. Honestly I do feel that if disney treats Star Wars with the same care that it does marvel. Star Wars will be at the very least, entertaining, and should be very profitable. There was 2 things I didnt like in the Episode VII teaser. 1 Was the R2 head on a Volley Ball (that's all I see sorry). And then 2 was the fat nosed speeder. Everything Else was Awesome to me. Storm Troopers, looked awesome, X-wings looked Awesome. The Falcon, Looked Awesome (also looked like some one cleaned up the old "peace of junk"). The Cross Gaurd Saber, looked like a bit of a gimmick, but of all the saber gimmicks I have seen (Saber staff, Curved, "Light whips") it was probably one of the "least offensive" gimmicks I have seen, though by far the coolest was Ezra's saber, still opens up so many options AND being so practical and versatile ESPECIALLY in the era he is in.
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I personally would really like to see a villain who isnt a Sith. Although the EU had a lot of awesome Sith, Id prefer to see something new.

 

I agree and disagree. There's supposed to be star wars spin offs which will be great for that but part of what makes star wars interesting is the Dark versus Light dynamic. In the spin off movies there's lots of room to have other villains take the spot light but I'm interested to see how the new Sith will play out and how the order will evolve once again.

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I personally would really like to see a villain who isnt a Sith. Although the EU had a lot of awesome Sith, Id prefer to see something new.

 

In the game trilogy starting with Revenant, the villain will be a fallen Celestial called the Singularity.

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I liked it better when the "Light" was the Force in harmony and the "Dark Side" was what happened when the Force became imbalanced and corrupted.

 

The whole "both sides are necessary" thing just feels stale.

 

/shrug

 

Both are "stale" tbh. You have plenty of things in fiction where Evil is about corrupting the natural order and all that. A perfect example of this is Tolkein. Even the Orcs are corrupted elves....the Elves were "perfect beings" in the eye of Eru Iluvatar. The orcs are the descendents of elves that Melkor captured, tortured and corrupted.

 

Now I know that some people like their science fiction and fantasy to be more "pure" and less like rl. Example all the trekkies that RAGED about Ds-9 and the new movies because they don't show the Federation as some shiny Utopia where everyone is "better" and has evolved past the "evils" of pragmatism that we have to deal with everyday in reality. Thing is I find that not only stale but completely compelling.

 

To me the compelling hero is the person who gets to be the hero because they make the right choices, where nature says "hey light and dark are both 'valid' paths" and he CHOOSES to take the higher path. The compelling villain or anti-hero is the one who due to circumstance and the consequences of decisions CHOSE to take the lower path.

 

In the world you put out it is simply "natural" to be good... that is the natural order and except in rare occassion if you went bad you were somehow corrupted. Ergo you do not bare full responsibility for your choice to be bad. Pretty cheesy and uncompelling in my mind.

Edited by Ghisallo
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I agree and disagree. There's supposed to be star wars spin offs which will be great for that but part of what makes star wars interesting is the Dark versus Light dynamic. In the spin off movies there's lots of room to have other villains take the spot light but I'm interested to see how the new Sith will play out and how the order will evolve once again.

 

You can have a "dark jedi" or evil force user who is not Sith imo. To me the Sith isn't just an evil jedi, they follow a codified philosophy just as the Jedi do. You could even have a "gray" force user who while not absorbed by the dark side, is taking actions that paint him as the villain. Say someone who on their own would be a benevolent Emperor and believes an Empire is right BUT the fact that it is an empire with little freedom AND there is no telling what/who his successor may be so he is the "bad guy."

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You can have a "dark jedi" or evil force user who is not Sith imo. To me the Sith isn't just an evil jedi, they follow a codified philosophy just as the Jedi do. You could even have a "gray" force user who while not absorbed by the dark side, is taking actions that paint him as the villain. Say someone who on their own would be a benevolent Emperor and believes an Empire is right BUT the fact that it is an empire with little freedom AND there is no telling what/who his successor may be so he is the "bad guy."

 

My problem with that is the Sith are THE antagonists of Star Wars.

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My problem with that is the Sith are THE antagonists of Star Wars.

 

They are certainly the main antagonist but in the end this does not mean the Sith need to continue. Look at it this way. Assuming the are also keepin the history about the rule of two, it came about because as a large organization they were so busy stabbing each other in the back that in the end they always lost. Now the rule of two has been defeated. So while a new Dark Side user is likely to be the bad guy why would he pick up the mantle of the Sith that still has the stench of defeat about it? You can still have a damn good story without them and that is what is important.

 

Sometimes you paint yourself into a corner and I really think that is what happened here. I don't think George ever intended, or saw as realistic, an episode 7. Hell he and everyone else was shocked as all hell when Zahn's books did so damn well and the success of the EU is what in large part got the prequels green lit. In the original idea for RotJ Sidious and Vader die and Luke rides off into the sunset like Shane or Clint Eastwood's "The man with no name." That was going to be it... The Sith are dead and Luke is not reforming the Jedi, he is riding off screen his destiny fulfilled. So they kept the Sith bit BUT changed the Luke bit for mechandise reasons (Kasdan also wanted Han to die heroically but Lucas said no for mechandise reasons FYI) and so the corner was potentially painted.

 

In the end I guess I am saying the Sith may well make a comeback but in terms of the story, and consistency within the story it is far from a nesessity is all. Kinda like James Bond...we had SPECTER, then SMERSH then back to SPECTRE as the "bad guys" in the original movies... In the new movies we got QUANTUM but now it looks like SPECTRE may be making a comeback. No enemy has to be THE enemy as long as its a good story and/or a fun ride.

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In the game trilogy starting with Revenant, the villain will be a fallen Celestial called the Singularity.

 

Wrong. The villian will be the long forgotten and surviving in exile Order of Revan. The person holding the cross-guard saber in the teaser is the apprentice of the Order's master.

 

The Sith will be replaced with the Revanites, and they will be the new ultimate dark side users for the new trilogy and all EU media surrounding them. The connection will be made with SWTOR and also how Bane created his teachings based on Revan's holocron.

 

SWTOR will become canon.

 

 

:rak_grin:

 

Edited by Kaedusz
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