Codex entry for Darth title for SW:

The Dark Council officially recognized your authority as a Darth after you defeated Darth Baras.

So is Emperor's Wrath a Darth by canon, or just a Lord like Scourge?

To my recollection, the "Darth" title for Sith Warriors was shoehorned in shortly before the game went live. Originally, Warriors would officially be recognized as the "Emperor's Wrath" by the Dark Council upon you dealing with Baras and that would have been your title instead of Darth. But apparently, there were both people who were whining about being spoiled by the title and those who wanted to also be a Darth.

Hence, the "Emperor's Wrath" title was removed and Warriors got the "Darth" instead.

To my recollection, the "Darth" title for Sith Warriors was shoehorned in shortly before the game went live. Originally, Warriors would officially be recognized as the "Emperor's Wrath" by the Dark Council upon you dealing with Baras and that would have been your title instead of Darth. But apparently, there were both people who were whining about being spoiled by the title and those who wanted to also be a Darth.

 

Hence, the "Emperor's Wrath" title was removed and Warriors got the "Darth" instead.

Yeah just talking about the story.

Yeah just talking about the story.

If it's of any more help, the initial questgiver for the Oricon storyline on Vaiken Spacedock will refer to the Warrior as "Lord Wrath".

If it's of any more help, the initial questgiver for the Oricon storyline on Vaiken Spacedock will refer to the Warrior as "Lord Wrath".

Well Palps refers to Vader as "Lord Vader", but we know Vader's real title.

The Emperor's Wrath is technically a Lord. Post act 3 dialogue has most NPCs referring to you as Lord Wrath, etc. and never as Darth, ever.

Yes and Mighty Wrath as well.

The Emperor's Wrath is technically a Lord. Post act 3 dialogue has most NPCs referring to you as Lord Wrath, etc. and never as Darth, ever.

Emperor's wrath is its own title, but the player character gets access to title "Darth" the same as inquisitor once story has advanced enough. So I would say warrior is 'Darth'.

To my recollection, the "Darth" title for Sith Warriors was shoehorned in shortly before the game went live. Originally, Warriors would officially be recognized as the "Emperor's Wrath" by the Dark Council upon you dealing with Baras and that would have been your title instead of Darth. But apparently, there were both people who were whining about being spoiled by the title and those who wanted to also be a Darth.

 

Hence, the "Emperor's Wrath" title was removed and Warriors got the "Darth" instead.

Sounds plausible. I don't think there is much actual difference between 'lord' and 'darth'. This is fiction, after all.

Sounds plausible. I don't think there is much actual difference between 'lord' and 'darth'. This is fiction, after all.

Darth Baras actually gives you a lesson on the difference between a Lord and a Darth at the end of Warrior Act 1. There is a distinct difference.

Also, the inquisitor is declared a Darth by Darth Marr at the end of their story in addition to receiving the title. The Warrior receives the title as well but no one ever declares him as such at any point in the story.

Also for those who played in Beta like myself know that yes, Darth was originally unavailable to the Warrior, we got "The Emperor's Wrath" title instead, but a lot of QQ resulted in it getting changed.

Sounds plausible. I don't think there is much actual difference between 'lord' and 'darth'. This is fiction, after all.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth

From above wookiepedia links:

Sith Lord was a title that was conferred on members of various Sith Orders who had both considerable knowledge of and strength in the dark side.

Darth was a title given to certain Sith Lords which preceded either their chosen Sith name, or, in some cases, their birth name.

So, whats the difference again?

I really like all things sith, but I find it funny that some people are trying to over-analyze something that was created originally just to sound cool

From above wookiepedia links:

 

 

 

 

 

So, whats the difference again?

 

I really like all things sith, but I find it funny that some people are trying to over-analyze something that was created originally just to sound cool

It's made pretty clear in game that Darth is higher then Lord in this incarnation of the Sith. I recall Ravage saying on the subject of the Nox being made a Dark Council member, something to the effect of "You can't make a mere Lord a Council member."

However, being the Emperor's Wrath, he's not a Lord, atleast, not in the traditional sense. His place in the Sith power structure in unique.

It's made pretty clear in game that Darth is higher then Lord in this incarnation of the Sith. I recall Ravage saying on the subject of the Nox being made a Dark Council member, something to the effect of "You can't make a mere Lord a Council member."

I know it is supposed to be higher. But there really aren't proper definitions what do you need to be in order to be a darth. It seems completely arbitrary. Do you need another Darth or a council of darths to name you Darth? No, I don't think so. I'm sure there has been some self-appointed ones. So whats the defining factor? I don't see any.

However, being the Emperor's Wrath, he's not a Lord, atleast, not in the traditional sense. His place in the Sith power structure in unique.

This I agree with. And I also agree with Biowares decision to give warrior the "Darth" title. It would have been stupid to give half the Sith population in the game a title there is supposed to be only one of in the entire Empire.

I know it is supposed to be higher. But there really aren't proper definitions what do you need to be in order to be a darth. It seems completely arbitrary. Do you need another Darth or a council of darths to name you Darth? No, I don't think so. I'm sure there has been some self-appointed ones. So whats the defining factor? I don't see any.

 

 

This I agree with. And I also agree with Biowares decision to give warrior the "Darth" title. It would have been stupid to give half the Sith population in the game a title there is supposed to be only one of in the entire Empire.

Well, Bounty Hunters get "Champion of the Great Hunt" or something like that, and, technically, everyone playing are the same eight people. That said, I imagine the Darth title for Warriors is atleast better for the RP community.

I'm pretty sure the idea that a Darth and a Lord are different things did not exist before SWTOR.

It did. Case and point, the Darth Bane trilogy of novels. Back then, the title of Darth was given to the leader of the Sith Order, as "Darth" literally meant "Dark Lord of the Sith" in the native Sith language. By the time of Bane, a thousand years before the movies, all members of the Brotherhood of Darkness were Lords and not Darths, because Kaan wanted to have a group of equals in order to prevent strife and infighting amongst his Sith brethren. That is why Bane took on the title of Darth, since he accused Kaan and his followers of cowardice for none of them attempting to seize the mantle of leadership and thus leading to weakness and dilution of Sith strength.

Since the Sith Empire at this point is so large, we have a lot of Darths running around and the concept as portrayed by the Darth Bane trilogy doesn't really fly that well anymore. "Darth" is yet another distinction from a "regular" Sith Lord, just like a Jedi Master is different from a Jedi Knight. What can be confusing is the way of both Sith and Jedi are being addressed by other people, since regular Knights and sometimes even Padawans are addressed as "Master Jedi" by non-force-using people, just as even Sith Apprentices are addressed with "My Lord".

The Emperor's Wrath is technically a Lord. Post act 3 dialogue has most NPCs referring to you as Lord Wrath, etc. and never as Darth, ever.

The Emperor's Wrath is a Darth, how he is addressed has no bearing on that. Darths are not addressed as Darths, ever. The only time Darth [Name] is ever used is when mentioning them to someone else.

The Emperor's Wrath also outranks the Dark Council, who are all Darths. The inquisitor is promoted to Darth because a Lord cannot be seen to serve on the Dark Council. This makes it pretty ludicrous that the Dark Council would be subservient to a Lord. This is why the Wrath title is more commonly used, because its distinguished from other Darths. Just like the Emperor is a Darth, but goes by the Emperor title, and no one calls him Darth Emperor.

When being addressed in the movies Darth Vader is only ever called Lord Vader or Vader except when Obi Wan calls him Darth. Just like many real life titles, there is a way you address the person that has nothing to do with their title. Knights are addressed as Sir, Popes are addressed as your holiness or his holiness, the Queen is addressed as her majesty or your majesty.

It did. Case and point, the Darth Bane trilogy of novels. Back then, the title of Darth was given to the leader of the Sith Order, as "Darth" literally meant "Dark Lord of the Sith" in the native Sith language. By the time of Bane, a thousand years before the movies, all members of the Brotherhood of Darkness were Lords and not Darths, because Kaan wanted to have a group of equals in order to prevent strife and infighting amongst his Sith brethren. That is why Bane took on the title of Darth, since he accused Kaan and his followers of cowardice for none of them attempting to seize the mantle of leadership and thus leading to weakness and dilution of Sith strength.

 

Since the Sith Empire at this point is so large, we have a lot of Darths running around and the concept as portrayed by the Darth Bane trilogy doesn't really fly that well anymore. "Darth" is yet another distinction from a "regular" Sith Lord, just like a Jedi Master is different from a Jedi Knight. What can be confusing is the way of both Sith and Jedi are being addressed by other people, since regular Knights and sometimes even Padawans are addressed as "Master Jedi" by non-force-using people, just as even Sith Apprentices are addressed with "My Lord".

The way the titles are supposed to be distinct ranks is not something that makes any sense in any era before or after this one. A "Darth" was always still a Sith Lord.

Kaan was ostensibly the leader of the Brotherhood of Darkness and he wasn't a Darth. Since that thousands of years later, Bane's take on the title shouldn't really be relevant. The Dark Lords of the Sith before and during the Great Hyperspace War and the Great Sith War were not Darths.

The idea behind the word Darth has probably been the most often retconed idea in Star Wars.

I know it is supposed to be higher. But there really aren't proper definitions what do you need to be in order to be a darth. It seems completely arbitrary. Do you need another Darth or a council of darths to name you Darth? No, I don't think so. I'm sure there has been some self-appointed ones. So whats the defining factor? I don't see any.

My guess is that it is similar to jedi master. Normally your council bestows the title on you, but there is precedence of people declaring themselves masters, which was not disputed. So, as long as nobody walks up to you and declares you no darth, enjoy your darthness.

The Sith of this era (not accounting for the Emperor) seem to follow this linear ranking system:

Acolyte (Initiate): A Sith who has formally begun their training (typically in an Academy).

Apprentice: A Sith (typically an Acolyte) who has been formally recognized by a Sith Lord and begun their training under them.

Lord: A Sith (typically an Apprentice) who has been formally recognized by a Darth.

Darth: A Sith (typically a Lord) who has been formally recognized by a Dark Councilor.

Dark Councilor: A Sith (typically a Darth) who has been formally recognized by the Emperor or the other Dark Councilors.

The last three are all 'Sith Lords', they just have been given a specialized rank and title to denote a higher ranking, but all of their names can be preceded by "Lord" and still be considered proper. All Sith regardless of rank are considered 'lords' to non-Force sensitive Imperials assuming said Imperial respects them. Ascending in the ranks requires someone two or so ranks above you to support that ascension. If a Sith arbitrarily declares themselves a Lord or Darth without the proper backing, they'll be struck down hard. But surviving such an ordeal could be enough to prove that Sith's worth, eventually earning them the title they put upon themselves.

The problem with the Emperor's Wrath is that the position literally exists outside of the linear system that encompasses 99% of the entire Sith Order. Once obtaining that position, they became something different altogether, with almost undefinable power limited only by the Emperor and those who would challenge his whims.

But the Sith Empire doesn't like undefined. So despite existing outside the usual structure, the Dark Council likely wanted to work the Wrath into the system every other Sith has to deal with. So they still consider the Wrath a Sith Lord at the very least. At the end of the story, it is likely that the Dark Council bestowed the Wrath the title of Darth as a sign of respect and an acknowledgement of the strength and power they possess, regardless of their connection to the Emperor.

But the Sith Empire doesn't like undefined. So despite existing outside the usual structure, the Dark Council likely wanted to work the Wrath into the system every other Sith has to deal with. So they still consider the Wrath a Sith Lord at the very least. At the end of the story, it is likely that the Dark Council bestowed the Wrath the title of Darth as a sign of respect and an acknowledgement of the strength and power they possess, regardless of their connection to the Emperor.

Nah, the Sith love undefined. Which is why they have several different competing bureaucracies and power structures for any given aspect of the imperial state. If you tried to draw up an org chart for the Sith Empire's decision-making process, you'd get nowhere and throw up your hands almost immediately. They're worse than the Nazis were in that respect.

Before Episode I, nobody had any idea that "Darth" was, in fact, a title used by Sith generally, which gave rise to the bizarre assortment of names from the Tales of the Jedi comics in the 1990s: Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Marka Ragnos, Ludo Kressh, and so on - none of whom was ever formally styled as 'lord' or 'Darth' in the original source material. Then came Episode I, in which we got Darth Maul and Darth Sidious, along with Lucas' scribbled backstory for Darth Bane; in addition, the Neimoidians in that film referred to Palpatine as "Lord Sidious" and Palpatine himself called his apprentice "Lord Maul". Up to this point, therefore, we can't trace any distinction between "Darth" and "Lord" among the Sith.

The 2000 Essential Chronology made Bane's story a part of the Battle of Ruusan mentioned in the Kyle Katarn games, so a couple of different works were commissioned to expand on Bane's story: Jedi vs. Sith and Bane of the Sith, which characteristically included continuity errors that were mostly resolved a few years later when Drew Karpyshyn published his Bane trilogy. By the time the dust settled on Bane, Karp had effectively created the skeleton of the Darth/Lord distinction we know today: that "Darth" was the usual title for Sith Lords, but Skere Kaan believed that it smacked of hubris and preferred that every Sith Lord simply be styled "Lord" to promote collegiality. And when Bane gained power, he 'restored' the title of Darth to its, uh, rightful place.

The SWTOR notion that "Lord" is a lesser and distinct title from "Darth" comes more or less from the Kaan/Bane thing; there's no other source in the EU for such a distinction, and there certainly isn't anything in the movies. It's more than a little weird for the setting of a game to be dictated by the setting of stories among an unrelated society two and a half thousand years in the future, but let that go. More realistically, "Lord" being distinct from "Darth" has gameplay advantages: it serves as an intermediate reward for players as they progress through their class story.

Even the game doesn't treat the two titles as that distinct, though. Several Sith with the title of "Darth" are referred to as "Lord" throughout the game. For instance, sometimes we hear of "Lord Baras" instead of "Darth Baras". Other Sith are only ever referred to as "Lord" despite outranking Sith who are referred to as "Darth", the most obvious example of which is none other than the Emperor, "Lord Vitiate". Clearly, then, the choice of style in the Sith Empire is not as clear-cut as some people in this thread appear to want to make it.

In the absence of a compelling reason to construct a coherent hierarchy of titles and styles, all we can really fall back on is the evidence of the game itself. Every Sith Warrior who completes her class story earns the use of the title "Darth". Therefore, regardless of the reasoning behind that award, every Sith Warrior is "a Darth".

The SWTOR notion that "Lord" is a lesser and distinct title from "Darth" comes more or less from the Kaan/Bane thing; there's no other source in the EU for such a distinction, and there certainly isn't anything in the movies. It's more than a little weird for the setting of a game to be dictated by the setting of stories among an unrelated society two and a half thousand years in the future, but let that go. More realistically, "Lord" being distinct from "Darth" has gameplay advantages: it serves as an intermediate reward for players as they progress through their class story.

While not explicitly stated, I'd say KOTOR, and KOTOR 2 atleast implies that Darth is a distinct title from Lord, seeing as only the leaders of the Sith of the time used the title.

The Sith of this era (not accounting for the Emperor) seem to follow this linear ranking system:

 

Acolyte (Initiate): A Sith who has formally begun their training (typically in an Academy).

Apprentice: A Sith (typically an Acolyte) who has been formally recognized by a Sith Lord and begun their training under them.

Lord: A Sith (typically an Apprentice) who has been formally recognized by a Darth.

Darth: A Sith (typically a Lord) who has been formally recognized by a Dark Councilor.

Dark Councilor: A Sith (typically a Darth) who has been formally recognized by the Emperor or the other Dark Councilors.

 

The last three are all 'Sith Lords', they just have been given a specialized rank and title to denote a higher ranking, but all of their names can be preceded by "Lord" and still be considered proper. All Sith regardless of rank are considered 'lords' to non-Force sensitive Imperials assuming said Imperial respects them. Ascending in the ranks requires someone two or so ranks above you to support that ascension. If a Sith arbitrarily declares themselves a Lord or Darth without the proper backing, they'll be struck down hard. But surviving such an ordeal could be enough to prove that Sith's worth, eventually earning them the title they put upon themselves.

 

The problem with the Emperor's Wrath is that the position literally exists outside of the linear system that encompasses 99% of the entire Sith Order. Once obtaining that position, they became something different altogether, with almost undefinable power limited only by the Emperor and those who would challenge his whims.

 

But the Sith Empire doesn't like undefined. So despite existing outside the usual structure, the Dark Council likely wanted to work the Wrath into the system every other Sith has to deal with. So they still consider the Wrath a Sith Lord at the very least. At the end of the story, it is likely that the Dark Council bestowed the Wrath the title of Darth as a sign of respect and an acknowledgement of the strength and power they possess, regardless of their connection to the Emperor.

This is totally correct for the Sith of this era. But Sith of every era use the terms differently, which is where the confusion seems to be stemming from. Looking at Bane, Vader, Maul, etc. is pointless because they come from a different time and play by different rules. Within the Empire during the time of SWTOR Darth outranks Lord, but people often say Lord anyway. The Warrior ends up a Darth at the end, but people say often say 'Lord' because it sounds better, which is common amongst the Sith.