Airwolfe Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) 'The enrage timer for The Dread Guard has been increased by 30 seconds in Hard and Nightmare Modes.' Nice to see Bioware caving to the casuals (Attn, this pro-nerf thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6425376#post6425376 - in which several members of a guild and others declare the fight impossible, to be proven wrong a few days later). Not really. This is Nightmare mode. This fight has been cleared by multiple guilds now - why nerf it? This decision simply robs the ability to compete for other guilds who still want challenge. This speaks poorly to Bioware's intent to provide challenging content, in my opinion. Will future content be continually nerfed to the point of Nightmare mode being 'everyone and their mother can clear it in a day-mode'? Edited August 1, 2013 by CommunityDroidEN Less troll, more objective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acridine Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) 'The enrage timer for The Dread Guard has been increased by 30 seconds in Hard and Nightmare Modes.' Not really. This is Nightmare mode. This fight has been cleared by multiple guilds now - why nerf it? This decision simply robs the ability to compete for other guilds who still want challenge. This speaks poorly to Bioware's intent to provide challenging content, in my opinion. Will future content be continually nerfed to the point of Nightmare mode being 'everyone and their mother can clear it in a day-mode'? I suppose DNT brought some of that on themselves but we're all still part of the same community and server. In the future, I'd hope to see less divisiveness and more friendly rivalry. As for the nerf, though, it's certainly tough to argue with Air's points. There are three difficulty tiers and the hardest should require flawless execution by the best players. Edited August 1, 2013 by CommunityDroidEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErosGyne Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) Do you think that now with the +30s to enrage timer will make it easy? Most guilds dont reach that far, half way of phase 2 with luck I beat you 1 credit that most will not clear it, the damage and healing that a player has to output is still there Some of the more hardcore will, but the casual players?? HELL NO , most of the casual cant clear it in HM BW will need to "nerf" it even more like what they did with Lost Island HM And i dont call it a nerf, is more of a adjustment And on the post about the DG are overtuned, 1 guild(atleast 1 guy that clear it) said that the fight needed atleast more 15 to 30s, so the opinions diverge abit Edited June 25, 2013 by ErosGyne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshlaBoga Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Do you think that now with the +30s to enrage timer will make it easy? Most guilds dont reach that far, half way of phase 2 with luck I beat you 1 credit that most will not clear it, the damage and healing that a player has to output is still there Some of the more hardcore will, but the casual players?? HELL NO , most of the casual cant clear it in HM BW will need to "nerf" it even more like what they did with Lost Island HM And i dont call it a nerf, is more of a adjustment Even with 30 seconds NiM DG is still tough as nails. Don't let the 30 seconds fool you, it's still the hardest fight in the Operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrillOG- Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) Sigh... content doesn't get cleared on first day? Better nerf it... Edit: In hm too? Why.... Edited June 25, 2013 by TrillOG- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErosGyne Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) Sigh... content doesn't get cleared on first day? Better nerf it... Edit: In hm too? Why.... Because casual cant clear it in HM Edited June 25, 2013 by ErosGyne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pietrastor Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Because casual cant clear it in HM Except that they can, Dread Guards ain't the raid-wiper boss of this HM Ops, Operator is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying-Brian Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 It's not a change to the mechanics, HP of the bosses or the damage going out. It is in fact the change that was asked for, in just making the enrage timer longer. No issues there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airwolfe Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) ... "ENRAGE TIMER is impossible with our current gear (full Underworld)." - <Death and Taxes> Enkay - 55 Juggernaut, GM http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6425376&postcount=1 http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6425897&postcount=50 http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6425967&postcount=56 http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6426233&postcount=78 DNT streamer saying "mathematically impossible" who basically trolled everyone who stated otherwise. So ya I misquoted a bit. I think the thread linked above is the reason why this fight was nerfed (unnecessarily), thus the call out. An 86 page thread like that had to have garnered Dev attention, and perhaps it was read as tons of people agreeing 'yes, it needs a nerf' where I think the majority of that thread was people saying 'no, it does not.' This nerf is a mistake - we have Seven(or more?) 8 person kills and Three 16 person kills on Dread Guards and it's not been that long, this is the 2nd lock set. I hope it's reversed. Edited June 26, 2013 by CommunityDroidFR repost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namesaretough Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I think the thread linked above is the reason why this fight was nerfed (unnecessarily), thus the call out. An 86 page thread like that had to have garnered Dev attention, and perhaps it was read as tons of people agreeing 'yes, it needs a nerf' where I think the majority of that thread was people saying 'no, it does not.' It's likely the devs saw the number of people attempting it, and decided that they wanted more people to be able to clear it than the percent that are currently able. I want all the fights to be super difficult as much as the next guy, but 8man was clearly tuned much harder than the rest of the instance, implying they intended it to be easier than it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airwolfe Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 It's likely the devs saw the number of people attempting it, and decided that they wanted more people to be able to clear it than the percent that are currently able. I want all the fights to be super difficult as much as the next guy, but 8man was clearly tuned much harder than the rest of the instance, implying they intended it to be easier than it was. I think the answer there is to tune the other bosses to a similar challenge level rather than nerf to get things lined up. On wanting more people to be able to clear content - story mode was made for those who just want to see the content and mechanics and don't really want the maximum challenge. Hard mode is for those who like a challenge, at least on release. And Nightmare is for a select audience, those who want a true, nearly impossible challenge. I'm of the understanding that a large amount of the former SWTOR player base left due to the lack of challenging raid content so I think nerfing is also a negative business decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshlaBoga Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I think the answer there is to tune the other bosses to a similar challenge level rather than nerf to get things lined up. On wanting more people to be able to clear content - story mode was made for those who just want to see the content and mechanics and don't really want the maximum challenge. Hard mode is for those who like a challenge, at least on release. And Nightmare is for a select audience, those who want a true, nearly impossible challenge. I'm of the understanding that a large amount of the former SWTOR player base left due to the lack of challenging raid content so I think nerfing is also a negative business decision. Thing is, it was either buff 4 bosses or nerf 1. And nerfing one is far less time consuming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namesaretough Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I think the answer there is to tune the other bosses to a similar challenge level rather than nerf to get things lined up. On wanting more people to be able to clear content - story mode was made for those who just want to see the content and mechanics and don't really want the maximum challenge. Hard mode is for those who like a challenge, at least on release. And Nightmare is for a select audience, those who want a true, nearly impossible challenge. I'm of the understanding that a large amount of the former SWTOR player base left due to the lack of challenging raid content so I think nerfing is also a negative business decision. Like I said, I want all the bosses to be challenging, but given guilds were killing Operator/Kephess in less than 5 pulls when DG required 100+, the dev team probably wanted it to be at least a little easier than it was. I doubt the decision was based on threads on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airwolfe Posted June 25, 2013 Author Share Posted June 25, 2013 Thing is, it was either buff 4 bosses or nerf 1. And nerfing one is far less time consuming. This is true..but any MMO team that wants their endeavour to survive, should be aware that raids are the heart of that survival - and more time devoted to them is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sziroten Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) I think the answer there is to tune the other bosses to a similar challenge level rather than nerf to get things lined up. On wanting more people to be able to clear content - story mode was made for those who just want to see the content and mechanics and don't really want the maximum challenge. Hard mode is for those who like a challenge, at least on release. And Nightmare is for a select audience, those who want a true, nearly impossible challenge. I'm of the understanding that a large amount of the former SWTOR player base left due to the lack of challenging raid content so I think nerfing is also a negative business decision. Players did leave because the original raid content was in no way comparable of what you have today and not because a single mobs enrage timer was "nerfed" by 30 seconds.... . Any guild serious enough about what they are doing did attempt and kill the encounter/ cleared the operation. Nerfing an encounter is what happens in every MMO over time and if you wanted to face the "mathematical impossible" you have to try when it goes live for the first time. At least we now know that the mathematic impossible can be beaten... thanks to that Bioware. Edited June 25, 2013 by Sziroten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) Hardcore guilds got their challenge whether it was meant to be like that or not. Some managed it beat it so there's a cookie for them to keep that no one else can have. Same goes for the pre-nerf Tanks and Kephess EC NiM. Edited June 25, 2013 by Gyronamics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitthrawdo Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 As a serious player who hasn't yet had the opportunity to enter NiM TFB, I must say that I'm pretty pissed although not surprised. There are already two versions of the raid for those not serious enough to do NiM; I'd go so far as to say that it's insulting to make NiM easier when multiple groups have shown that it is do-able if you're skilled enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnbor Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 If you see the enrage you deserve the kill even if its 30s nerf the fight is Nightmare worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocho-Quatro Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Edit: In hm too? Why.... I don't understand the HM nerf at all.... Dread Guard is, second to The Horror, the easiest encounter in HM TfB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paowee Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) So we have: TFB-------?SNV?----------------(?) June July August September October Asking to make a fight easier is like smoking. You want it but in the end it's bad for you when you look at the bigger picture. Remember a nerf means content is now slightly easier. Which means you are going to blow through content that much faster. Which also increases the chances of you getting bored sooner once you've cleared "everything." Hopefully we can get content fast enough to keep up with the nerfing of fights that are supposed to keep us busy while we wait on the next PVE content. By "supposed to keep us busy" i mean, farming the instance for gear for a couple of weeks. NiM WH, HM DG, NiM Op9, NiM Keph, HM TFB(no bug). By doing this, any guild, can clear NiM TFB (assuming they don't die to mechanics). It just takes time. Its not quantifiable but if you end up getting bored in several weeks remember the forums asked for nerfs to make that Operation easier. If they had kept NiM DG the same, that could have given you.. maybe 2-3 more weeks of farming before ultimately getting burned out of the instsance which we have been raiding since September 26, 2012. It's now July 26, 2013... Edited June 25, 2013 by paowee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 i've seen about an equal number of people leave for both of those reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElitehunterDS Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 Class dps balance was the issue, they took the easy way out... /sarcasm : Good job! Still unsubscribing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daegil Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 I doubt the 30 second extra on the enrage timer will suddenly make everyone kill the Dread Guard. So far all the kills I've seen have had Kelsara enrage and not die until well into the enrage. Guilds who are not ~top 25 (worldwide) will spend a lot of time wiping on the mechanics and only then have to worry about enrage timer, which is still extremely tight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy_Karl Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 30 Seconds was to account for diversity of DPS. Bioware can't fix class balance so they went the direction we recommended. /thread Regards, KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felkroth Posted June 25, 2013 Share Posted June 25, 2013 (edited) I doubt the 30 second extra on the enrage timer will suddenly make everyone kill the Dread Guard. So far all the kills I've seen have had Kelsara enrage and not die until well into the enrage. Guilds who are not ~top 25 (worldwide) will spend a lot of time wiping on the mechanics and only then have to worry about enrage timer, which is still extremely tight. http://www.twitch.tv/swtorfusrodah/c/2467507 We barely hit enrage by 1 second and ONLY because our top DPS died 20 seconds prior. And you can't cite group composition either, because we definatly didn't use the prototypical setup (aside from using 3 ranged/1 melee) That kill was 1 shadow dps, 2 commando dps, and 1 gunslinger. So lesson of the story....surround yourselves with talented players and ya'll can play whatever the heck you want and compete at the top level. IMO I'm confident that, a critical examination of my group members, that at least 6 of the 8 individuals listed in that video could play any class in the game at their max level. Edited June 25, 2013 by Felkroth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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