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Discussion Topic: Game Update 5.4 and the Next Roadmap

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Discussion Topic: Game Update 5.4 and the Next Roadmap
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Glower's Avatar


Glower
07.30.2017 , 04:39 AM | #801
Quote: Originally Posted by Icykill_ View Post
Bio will keep shooting themselves in the foot over and over until they have no feet left at all, that's when the game falls over because there are no players left to support the finical weight of keeping it going
Well they did it once - before server merges and f2p, dead fleets with 2-3 players dancing around terminals. But you cannot save one game twice unless you re-release it in Steam. Steam - the last hope... for these devs!
SWTOR goes F2P; 2014 PvP FAQ, A: "We have no plans at this time" (c)
2014 cantina, A: "They’d love to do that at some point, but technically very challenging and unlikely to happen in the near future." (c)
2016 livestream: "RNG is exciting"; Summer 2018 PvP changes - finally, Bioware delivers...

Transcendent's Avatar


Transcendent
07.30.2017 , 04:56 AM | #802
Quote: Originally Posted by Icykill_ View Post
It seems to me the only way to make them understand is to unsub.
You're right of course, which is why I only have 22 days remaining before I sit back and simply watch to see how they decide to proceed. As I've said, I get my PvP enjoyment in other games, and I'm looking forward to Destiny 2 to add to that list of games I currently play.

I came back purely to see how things had changed, while it's improved, it isn't anywhere as good as it could be with the stubborn resistance of Austin to remain fixated on GC gearing among other issues with the legacy of Ben Irving. I wish Keith good luck and I hope Austin learn to listen to the feedback given, not just the feedback that they want to hear.

At least communication had improved, and while I do think BioWare Austin and the development team there work hard, I have to consider that they're not always working on the right things when they need to really consider doing so.

Thanks to everyone who has used my Refer a Friend link over the years, may the force be with you.

Jdast's Avatar


Jdast
07.30.2017 , 05:03 AM | #803
Quote: Originally Posted by Icykill_ View Post
It seems to me the only way to make them understand is to unsub. I'm pretty sure if people hadn't unsubbed and continued to unsub after 5.0 came out they would not be bothering to fix it.
The same true of pvp, they just aren't going to listen to reason until everyone leaves. But by then it will be too late this time because there is not enough of a population buffer to keep the game going.
I swear, Bio will keep shooting themselves in the foot over and over until they have no feet left at all, that's when the game falls over because there are no players left to support the finical weight of keeping it going
Frankly, that is probably a good idea. In the 8 months I've been here, your posts have gotten progressively more snarky. A break is sometimes a good thing. With that said, and forgive me for being blunt, but just because you post more than others doesn't mean you speak for the PvP community. Several of us have articulated why some kind of gear gap, the exact level can be debated of course, is a good idea for PvP. You just philosophically disagree. You do understand that our disagreement is whether or not bolster should be b/t 244 and 248? In the grand scheme of things, we actually pretty much agree. But... (there is always a but)

What's insulting, though, is that you think we are not "dedicated" pvp-ers, whatever that means. I have, for better or worse (usually worse) something of an eidetic memory -- and I have yet to hear you articulate a good reason why a slight gear gap isn't a good idea. You ignore the premise and jump to the conclusion.

Let me put it crudely: I like the chaos that is WZs, I want them to pop, that means you need people signing up. A previous poster said that a gear gap is bad because the one with the lower gear gap, once they are stomped, will quit. IMy experience suggests otherwise. Why? Because the vast, vast, vast majority of the time -- it is about coordination and teamwork. His / her experience is totally the opposite of mine -- people will still keep playing (which is provable since the WZs pop). And, no, I'm not ripping out my PvP resume, though I am damn close to linking my armory on WoW.

If you want 100% gear equality for ranked PvP, then I'm completely on board. Sadly, as a Sith might say, we need fodder to kill in WZs -- and putting a juicy carrot on the end of that stick is a good way of doing it.

Dasty

menofhorror's Avatar


menofhorror
07.30.2017 , 05:43 AM | #804
Quote: Originally Posted by MeNaCe-NZ View Post
Why do you care then if players want to make PVP more accessible for EVERYONE and maybe actually make it less of a side activity? If PVE isn't affected (it would actually help PVE gearing for the reasons Jerba mentioned above imo as PVE players could solely focus on PVE content for gearing) what do you care?



Mentioned a few examples above. Can I prove that's the sole reason they are highly successful? Of course not but when you see all the successful games adopt such a model and MMO style "progression" PVP tends to fall flat in comparison it's a valid comparison to make.

What PVP based games that do have a purely progression based stat gearing system are highly successful?



How can it be pay to win if it's speeding up "vanity" progression? You aren't getting an advantage over other players, there is no pay to win.

Oh I never said I don't want to make pvp more accessible. You are just assuming that because I disagree with you. I actually really like the pvp in this game. The point is that you don't speak for everyone and you never will. You aren't special. So stop using phrases like "the players want it" because you don't speak on behalf of all the players.

Oh and sure, you definitely can bring the comparison. But you also can't just compare the pvp in one game to another. Things are more complex than that. swtor's engine isn't also the best for massive scale pvp and that's why the pvp (while I really like it) will never be the main focus of the game in contrast to games like Overwatch or Battlefield.

menofhorror's Avatar


menofhorror
07.30.2017 , 05:47 AM | #805
Quote: Originally Posted by Icykill_ View Post
Actually lots of players want exactly what he wrote. I'd even go so far as saying the majority of pvpers want what it. So I'm happy for him to speak for me on this topic as I'm sure others are too.
It's easy to know the Devs aren't listening. Keith pretty much said as much when he said they want to keep Bolster at 242 so there is a gear progression.
Any pvper knows that will still have a larger than needed gear gap. Hence Keith is ignoring our feed back, ie not listening to what the dedicated pvpers want.
Except that you also don't speak on behalf of the players. You aren't so special and you don't get to decide what makes a pvp Player "dedicated". And no it's not so easy to say if devs are listening. They can listen but ultimately not agree with player's ideas. Because ultimately they are in Charge of the game and not you. And frankly listening too much to Players isn't a good idea because in the end of the day we are all just players and not game designers.

You are just not happy that Keith isn't saying the words you want to hear.

And perhaps you should unsub for a while to cool down. There are lots of other good games out there and like a previous poster mentioned. You are getting agressive and perhaps some time off will help you.

DarthSpuds's Avatar


DarthSpuds
07.30.2017 , 06:15 AM | #806
Quote: Originally Posted by Jdast View Post
In the 8 months I've been here...

Let me put it crudely: I like the chaos that is WZs, I want them to pop, that means you need people signing up. A previous poster said that a gear gap is bad because the one with the lower gear gap, once they are stomped, will quit. IMy experience suggests otherwise. Why? Because the vast, vast, vast majority of the time -- it is about coordination and teamwork. His / her experience is totally the opposite of mine -- people will still keep playing (which is provable since the WZs pop). And, no, I'm not ripping out my PvP resume, though I am damn close to linking my armory on WoW.

If you want 100% gear equality for ranked PvP, then I'm completely on board. Sadly, as a Sith might say, we need fodder to kill in WZs -- and putting a juicy carrot on the end of that stick is a good way of doing it.

Dasty
The high point of PvP in this game, when even I PvP'd (and I don't PvP in MMORPGs as a rule) was when Bolster was high enough that gear was all but irrelevant.

Because the vast majority of PvPers want PvP to equal Player Skill vs Player Skill, and that just can not happen when there's a 5% or 10% gear disparity.

Linking to your WoW Armoury proves precisely nothing, PvP in SWtoR is not the same as PvP in WoW, and I well remember the days of PvP Scrubs in Welfare Epics from WoW - that was part of the reason I stopped playing PvP in MMORPGs.

All The Best
#Is-This-As-Good-As-It-Gets?
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Jdast's Avatar


Jdast
07.30.2017 , 06:28 AM | #807
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
The high point of PvP in this game, when even I PvP'd (and I don't PvP in MMORPGs as a rule) was when Bolster was high enough that gear was all but irrelevant.

Because the vast majority of PvPers want PvP to equal Player Skill vs Player Skill, and that just can not happen when there's a 5% or 10% gear disparity.

Linking to your WoW Armoury proves precisely nothing, PvP in SWtoR is not the same as PvP in WoW, and I well remember the days of PvP Scrubs in Welfare Epics from WoW - that was part of the reason I stopped playing PvP in MMORPGs.

All The Best
Spuds,

I didn't respond to your previous post and am reluctant to do so this time, because you can't seem to grasp the CORE CONCEPT.

Obviously, we want PvP to be about skill. My point, which is obviously lost on you, is that...

PvP will happen much less frequently unless there is a carrot.

TLR: We share the same goal, just have different means to get there. If you want purely equal PvP, why not just turn that into an Arena match with equal gear.

P.S. One of the most annoying habits of people who play this game is assuming that anything do to with WoW is automatically bad. Don't be that guy.

Undeadcenturion's Avatar


Undeadcenturion
07.30.2017 , 06:36 AM | #808
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
Great questions. As I outlined in the Roadmap, we are returning to our MMO roots, but as everyone knows, we were focused on story development and left most MMO content alone for the past couple years.

To change our direction, we had to retool, reorganize, hire new talent, and get everyone on board with the changed direction. That takes time, so we made a choice and decided to release the Operation Boss encounters one at a time. This gave us more time to design, polish, test, and get insight directly from players, versus making everyone wait all year before we released 5 new bosses.

It wasn't an easy decision, as we knew we were going to be criticized while impacting progression efforts. But, honestly, it was the right call. We're discussing future content, how to release it, what's going to be included, and when, but we won't be ready to disclose our next year's plans for a while.

I know that's vague, yet it gives you an idea of where we're headed.

---Keith
Sadly ... the issue is ... even with a beast mode PC ... this game can't handle MMO content. Just like how you guys killed Ilum PvP at launch because the servers couldn't handle it. You get more then 8 characters on the screen doing skill animations ... GG. Literally the worst engine in MMO history. Thread after thread ... youtube videos ... and blogs by MMO sites tell you just exactly how shank this engine is. I would rather see work done to the engine then anything else. You people ( lord knows I'm not allowed to actually call you what I want) play it off and pretend like everything is sunshine and unicorn rainbow turds.

Fact is this game has been out since 2011 and is still the most unpolished rough trash can in terms of stability as when it launched.
Adaro Tardis

VirtualMorrigan's Avatar


VirtualMorrigan
07.30.2017 , 06:54 AM | #809
Quote: Originally Posted by KeithKanneg View Post
You nailed it.

Even though it may not be apparent, I send so many of your suggestions to the Dev Team. We discuss them, debate them, then if we like something, we determine the effort, and decide when to do it. Keep in mind, we have to work to a schedule to ensure we deliver all agreed upon parts at the right time.

What may seem a simple change could very well add weeks of not just Development time, but Engineering, QA, reschedule of VO recordings, localization, and more. Although I'm notorious about asking for changes mid-stream, we desperately try not to, as it can impact everyone and cause schedule delays.

--Keith-
ps...sorry for all the posts seemingly all at once. We've been heads down this past week on various planning activities (including the Roadmap update) and realized we hadn't kept you apprised.
Doesn't have to do anything with class balance, or your inability to fix glaring bugs. Unless yor codebase is even more ****ed up than anyone imagined, changes to abilities should be a very easy fix. Don't try to pretend it is that complicated, dont even try to pretend you are spending that much time testing so it takes that long. Be honest and say you heard it but didn't give a damn as usual, and maybe then we'll get somewhere.

VirtualMorrigan's Avatar


VirtualMorrigan
07.30.2017 , 07:07 AM | #810
Quote: Originally Posted by casirabit View Post
They do listen to us, but sometimes what we say isn't always right. There are various opinions on what they should and shouldn't. do.

I been here long enough to have lived through nerfs on my favorite character (sawbones) and been able to adjust and still able to play my sawbones. I have yet to not be able to play any of my toons because of changes they make to a character.

People have been complaining about the lightning spec sorceress for a long time and yet I have not had any problems with mine, even in operations. Sure I don't do pvp but that is one aspect of the game, not the entire game as someone want to make it seem like.

I have spoken to a friend of mine, whose opinion I respect and trust, and he agreed that the healing on the sorceress/sage is a bit too much. I have given his feedback since he doesn't come to the forums.

Customers are not always right, no matter what they want to believe. There are times that a customer is wrong but they can be stubborn and not admit that because they want what they want and don't take into consideration what is actually beneficial to more than just them.

That is the main problem here, each person wants something different but yet each of us think what we want is more important than someone else that is not true. The devs have to go through everything we may suggest and see if it will work but they have to consider the whole picture, not just our view.
You know, people like you are actually making things worse in the current situation. There are less and less people playing because of idiotic decisions they make, but you keep finding excuses, you keep bending over backwards to keep playing how you used to. Good on you if you can make it work in your little bubble, but telling others that theywrong because of something someone told you is just...I don't even have words for that.

Let's get this one straight: The customer IS always right, from their own POV. The customer si NOT obligated to agree to any disadvantage to their own enjoyment for the "greater good" and pulling the moral card here is simply confusing the matter. Bioware's decision diminish the enjoymnet of a lot of players lately, said players are leaving. People like you insist that nothing is wrong because eh they could have adapted, right? Wake up. They don't have that much room for error here any more, and with declining population, even your playstyle will be affected, directly or indirectly.