I'll trade you all my Lanas for your Therons, Quinns, Arcanns, and Senyas then XD You know what I think would be cool is if there had been a whole group of characters already formed into a small but budding resistance movement (not a big army with lots of sith, jedi, etc...already in their ranks) working out of the back of skeezy shops and in back alleys, hiding in the city, etc...The group could have coordinated to get you out with each person doing a different aspect of the plan. Slicers, people infiltrating in disguise, people creating a distraction elsewhere, etc...As it was the plan was extremely stupid no matter who we had carrying it out. "Just go straight in and walk out with the commander-oh and despite his sickness, he'll have to fight too."

You have a deal. Your extra Therons, Quinns, Arcanns and Senyas should be arriving on the next flight.

I actually agree 100%. The rescue would have worked so much better with a small, scrappy band of people working out a clever escape plan. Theron, Lana, a whole bunch of others, all coordinating the rescue with their special talents. They could have hid in the Zakuulan underworld or Asylum, and maybe the first chapters could have had the team and Outlander moving through those neighborhoods.

And they did not account for the fact that the Outlander was physically not okay and shouldn't have been fighting, nooo...it is like, sure, give the Outlander an antidote ao they don't die and then expect them to fight past a thousand skytroopers and knights as they are literally holding their side in pain...o_O

You have a deal. Your extra Therons, Quinns, Arcanns and Senyas should be arriving on the next flight.

 

I actually agree 100%. The rescue would have worked so much better with a small, scrappy band of people working out a clever escape plan. Theron, Lana, a whole bunch of others, all coordinating the rescue with their special talents. They could have hid in the Zakuulan underworld or Asylum, and maybe the first chapters could have had the team and Outlander moving through those neighborhoods.

 

And they did not account for the fact that the Outlander was physically not okay and shouldn't have been fighting, nooo...it is like, sure, give the Outlander an antidote ao they don't die and then expect them to fight past a thousand skytroopers and knights as they are literally holding their side in pain...o_O

It's dumb that I'm getting all excited over a storyline that doesn't exist lol

My Darth Imperius still has (now old man) Andronikos.

If BW ever brings him back in any fashion other than a pointless alert. They better have a good explanation for his absence over the past two years...and they can't hand-wave jail for everybody. With our luck it will be something awful like him carousing around the galaxy with a new pirate crew.

I'm actually going completely off-game on my Nik reunion for my fic because I can't keep waiting.

I miss Theron. I haven't touched the game since they came out with this Umbara plot. I might never come back unless they show the whole thing was an elaborate ruse. Aristocra Saganu is a nice lure though, if he plays a major ongoing role (and can reprise the romance).

I doubt that - I hope I am wrong but I think we will only see as much of Saganu as we saw already in the teaser/trailer and I kind of expect the kiss/romance that a female agent can have with him not even be mentioned.

Like Jonas for the female trooper I would love to have the possibilty to have him as LI - even if he cannot be a companion.

And yeah, I miss Theron too but I am still hopeful that it will turn out ok in the end. It better will...

It's dumb that I'm getting all excited over a storyline that doesn't exist lol

I thought that WAS what happened >.> My understanding was Lana and Theron teamed up again, using their talents to pull together people and using their abilities to get what they could done. Romanced Theron says he was sorry he couldn't be there when you woke up, because he had his part to play. Even if it meant not being right by your side. He was preparing a lot of other things, possibly even getting into the systems with T7,

I thought that WAS what happened >.> My understanding was Lana and Theron teamed up again, using their talents to pull together people and using their abilities to get what they could done. Romanced Theron says he was sorry he couldn't be there when you woke up, because he had his part to play. Even if it meant not being right by your side. He was preparing a lot of other things, possibly even getting into the systems with T7,

I meant a group of Theron, Lana, and other new and interesting characters who would stick around and be part of the story all playing different roles in a well formed and carefully orchestrated plan like a heist. Then you and your small rebel group go into hiding in like back alleys and fake shady storefronts on Zakuul and the old world and make your strikes from there as you basically form your rebellion from the ground up. What we got was Theron nowhere to be seen, Lana bludgeons her way in carelessly, T7 sets off an alarm, and Koth bungles waiting with a ship and then when we get the alliance it's already a huge force that's been pretty much fully formed offscreen without us. Lana is basically like "I (and apparently Theron offscreen) made this army, here you get to be the leader of it :D" I don't even know why they thought they needed us, especially the non-force using classes.

I meant a group of Theron, Lana, and other new and interesting characters who would stick around and be part of the story all playing different roles in a well formed and carefully orchestrated plan like a heist. Then you and your small rebel group go into hiding in like back alleys and fake shady storefronts on Zakuul and the old world and make your strikes from there as you basically form your rebellion from the ground up. What we got was Theron nowhere to be seen, Lana bludgeons her way in carelessly, T7 sets off an alarm, and Koth bungles waiting with a ship and then when we get the alliance it's already a huge force that's been pretty much fully formed offscreen without us. Lana is basically like "I (and apparently Theron offscreen) made this army, here you get to be the leader of it :D" I don't even know why they thought they needed us, especially the non-force using classes.

So basically like Dragon Age: Inquisition...where the Inquisitor is the one to build stuff from the ground up and the advisers are just pretty eye candy on the side.

Theron and Lana pretty much built the Alliance. Why they needed the Outlander to "Command" it I think is just another "one size fits all" handwave. That's why I like fanfic so much...because nine times out of ten, we'll get better written backstory.

So basically like Dragon Age: Inquisition...where the Inquisitor is the one to build stuff from the ground up and the advisers are just pretty eye candy on the side.

 

Theron and Lana pretty much built the Alliance. Why they needed the Outlander to "Command" it I think is just another "one size fits all" handwave. That's why I like fanfic so much...because nine times out of ten, we'll get better written backstory.

Nah, DA:I was the same as KotFE IMO with an organization founded by someone else (Cassandra and Divine Justinia) and already staffed when you join it as a figurehead. I mean you add people to both organizations sure, but both fell flat to me. The advisors and minions(war table missions) in DA:I are the ones who do anything important such as command the troops or plan every move the inquisition makes while the inquisitor is doing grunt work like herding goats and picking herbs and occasionally goes where the advisors tell him to go and kills everything.

I don't mind coming up with my own backstories, it's preferable to me in fact but the current story should be told in-game with as little "X important thing happened offscreen and we'll just tell you about it" as possible. For example, we're told that the Republic and Empire were devastated by Zakuul but we never get to see that supposed aftermath. I want to see bread lines in the upper levels of Coruscant, rioting and looting in the streets of Dromund Kaas, etc...BioWare used to know how to make things interesting and real and now they either forgot or don't care. I need to stop with the OT rant though

Nah, DA:I was the same as KotFE IMO with an organization founded by someone else (Cassandra and Divine Justinia) and already staffed when you join it as a figurehead. I mean you add people to both organizations sure, but both fell flat to me. The advisors and minions(war table missions) in DA:I are the ones who do anything important such as command the troops or plan every move the inquisition makes while the inquisitor is doing grunt work like herding goats and picking herbs and occasionally goes where the advisors tell him to go and kills everything.

 

I don't mind coming up with my own backstories, it's preferable to me in fact but the current story should be told in-game with as little "X important thing happened offscreen and we'll just tell you about it" as possible. For example, we're told that the Republic and Empire were devastated by Zakuul but we never get to see that supposed aftermath. I want to see bread lines in the upper levels of Coruscant, rioting and looting in the streets of Dromund Kaas, etc...BioWare used to know how to make things interesting and real and now they either forgot or don't care. I need to stop with the OT rant though

Well, the problem is that if they were aiming for realism, the Commander would never leave and we'd be the ones stuck doing paperwork or coordinating troop movements (kinda like Malcom's job and how he laments leaving the action behind). The "fun" part of the game is the front-lines stuff, so they kinda have to "handwave" off the actual "commanding" part to the folks who stay behind the lines (Theron/Lana/Cullen/Leliana/Josephine). And throughout most of FE/ET (I love that it says "feet" lulz), you're locked out of Theron and Lana as companions because they're the ones actually doing the coordinating and "leading" and you're doing the grunt stuff. So yeah, you're totally a figurehead. Maybe it would be easier to think of the Commander that way. Why they thought they'd need a figurehead is beyond me though...that's another handwave. I could see maybe the Jedi Battlemaster or a Dark Council member, because you're already leaders of the people (especially the Dark Council member) but it's kinda hard to handwave a Smuggler or a Bounty Hunter or an Agent who has always lived in the shadows. Most of the classes I really don't get why they weren't just left in carbonite...but *handwave* they're important.

And yeah, it would be nice to see the actual "After Zakuul" versions of the planets. I was just on Alderaan starting the Star Fortress stuff (which I still can't complete yet solo *sigh*) and it was mixed right in with the original planet. I guess I can see that they'd have to devote more resources into building two different versions of every single planet, but I do get it. Kinda like how it's never sat well with me that you can just go tool around in the old fleet if you sided with the other faction.

And BTW thank you for the figurehead stuff, but now it's got me thinking that I need to touch on that in my fic...like my character questioning why they woke her up in the first place (other than the fact that Theron's in love with her). Or why she's even in charge when really, she's not.

Well, the problem is that if they were aiming for realism, the Commander would never leave and we'd be the ones stuck doing paperwork or coordinating troop movements (kinda like Malcom's job and how he laments leaving the action behind). The "fun" part of the game is the front-lines stuff, so they kinda have to "handwave" off the actual "commanding" part to the folks who stay behind the lines (Theron/Lana/Cullen/Leliana/Josephine). And throughout most of FE/ET (I love that it says "feet" lulz), you're locked out of Theron and Lana as companions because they're the ones actually doing the coordinating and "leading" and you're doing the grunt stuff. So yeah, you're totally a figurehead. Maybe it would be easier to think of the Commander that way. Why they thought they'd need a figurehead is beyond me though...that's another handwave. I could see maybe the Jedi Battlemaster or a Dark Council member, because you're already leaders of the people (especially the Dark Council member) but it's kinda hard to handwave a Smuggler or a Bounty Hunter or an Agent who has always lived in the shadows. Most of the classes I really don't get why they weren't just left in carbonite...but *handwave* they're important.

 

And yeah, it would be nice to see the actual "After Zakuul" versions of the planets. I was just on Alderaan starting the Star Fortress stuff (which I still can't complete yet solo *sigh*) and it was mixed right in with the original planet. I guess I can see that they'd have to devote more resources into building two different versions of every single planet, but I do get it. Kinda like how it's never sat well with me that you can just go tool around in the old fleet if you sided with the other faction.

 

And BTW thank you for the figurehead stuff, but now it's got me thinking that I need to touch on that in my fic...like my character questioning why they woke her up in the first place (other than the fact that Theron's in love with her). Or why she's even in charge when really, she's not.

Herp derp I never saw this reply but since the thread is now revived I might as well respond ^_^

I definitely agree with you that it makes no sense for the Smuggler, Agent, and BH to be this key figure that Lana thinks she needs to have as a figurehead. It makes sense for the force using classes and maybe even the trooper, but the girl who shoots random people for money? The guy who slept his way across the galaxy and stole a bunch of stuff? The girl who lives in the shadows that nobody's heard of? The whole "realistically the leader of a big and powerful organization wouldn't be doing grunt work or fighting on the front lines" is true and it's why I hate it when our character becomes the leader of a large organization. Leader of a small band of outlaws? Fine. Leader of an elite squad of soldiers? Great. In Mass Effect for example, Shepard was the leader of one ship, one crew, one small group of fighters and was both elite but also had the freedom and story logic to be in the thick of things. Shepard never became a councilor on the Presidium yet continued to fight and not do his councilor duties more than lip service (like the outlander and inquisitor) and making him into that would have been very detrimental to the story IMO. BioWare in recent years seems to want to make all the stakes higher in that the world/galaxy has to be in some huge extinction level threat with some super powerful bombastic villain and make our characters into the most powerful and important and bestest person in the world/galaxy. The new lead up stuff with Theron points to more of the same. They've forgotten that world ending events and lofty social positions aren't necessary for a good story and those things on their own aren't enough to make the story good. Sometimes they can be actively negative.

I still have no clue why Theron fell for my Dark V SI slaughter and enslave everyone character.

I'm going through KotFE/KotET again to get exact dialogue lines rather then memory, but from memory: "I prefer to lead from the front" and afetr Aslylum "They need someone to rally behind" the Alliance only gets really going after you give Arcann and his fleet the middle finger on Asylum. Stood up to him, escaped yes but survived with a big combat ship to boot. This is why Figurehead was always the thing, the people of the Alliance jsut needed someone to rally behind, someone tough enough to give Arcann and his Empire the middle finger and survive to tell about it. The reason we do all the frontline stuff isn't jsut "player character" but "best the Alliance has" we don't do everything for the Alliance in the field, we do the stuff Theron and Lana think we're the best odds at succeeding - like the Star Fortresses etc. or when it's to recruit specific big names (so they can shoehorn in the class companions).

I still have no clue why Theron fell for my Dark V SI slaughter and enslave everyone character.

 

This was one thing I never understood about this particular Bioware title. In all of their other games, you can drive some of your companions away through your actions. In this one, even in the vanilla game, all of them stuck it out, regardless of how they felt about you. Tano Vik, Skage, and Broonmark have no business being with a LS V character, but there they are. Nadia, Vette, and Blizz don't fit with a DS V character. And it doesn't matter what you do to them, either. It doesn't matter how you treat them, all of your LI companions stay. You can be a total jerk to both Lana and Theron during SoR, and start or rekindle a "romance" in Fallen Empire. Then, regardless of what you do to them or choices you make that they disapprove of, they stay with you. That's why I like Koth so much. He's more like the companions from their other titles. If you make too many bad choices, he refuses a romance and leaves. Like a normal person would. Makes me wish they had done more of that. Then, your choices would actually matter.

That's why I like Koth so much. He's more like the companions from their other titles. If you make too many bad choices, he refuses a romance and leaves. Like a normal person would. Makes me wish they had done more of that. Then, your choices would actually matter.

Same here! Koth having his own opinions and deeply held values that he was actually willing to act on was extremely refreshing to me. It's definitely something I love and wish there was more of in SWtOR "choices have consequences" is super important to me, "not punishing the player" for certain choices is not. If I'm a murdering psycho that kills civilians for fun, good and peaceful characters shouldn't follow me. If I'm a goody two shoes, completely merciful pushover, ruthless and violent DS characters shouldn't follow me. This is also one of the reasons I hate Lana. She hates everything I do and every choice I make, I'm a jerk to her and tell her I don't trust her, etc...and she still acts like a lovesick puppy. The other characters at least act more neutral towards you.

The kind of one-size-fits all narrative makes Theron's betrayal or fake betrayal (he still endangers your life, realistically non force users wouldn't survive jumping out of a speeding train onto jagged rocks) hurt all the more. My Sith Inquisitor (for example) who romanced Theron is 100% LS, offers mercy to every enemy, rejects power offered, helps every civilian he can, and even supported the Republic over the Empire on Iokath for Theron (and because of the Empire's slaving ways) and yet he gets the same treatment as a 100% DS character who murders everyone he can just for fun including his own allies and/or spouse (if married to Kaliyo or Jorgan), oppresses everyone, seizes all power and becomes a dictator, etc...Both get treated like the second person with only a throwaway line of dialogue about the Alliance outgrowing you if you're good.

My friend who I had finally gotten to play and who romanced Theron finally finished Umbara and she's utterly heartbroken and pissed. Also she ended up hating Lana even more than I do lol.

I agree with the "one size fits all" assessment...however I think we need to take a step back and realize that this technically is a MMO, and not a single-player RPG like Dragon Age and Mass Effect. I know it does have that feel due to the cutscenes and conversations, but the budget is entirely different. They kinda have to go with "one size fits all" and for a MMO to inject a romance system into the game? I'll take it, because as far as I know, it's the only MMO that does it.

I understand that it would have been a ton of work to do so with the original class story companions but we're down to one story, one faction, one set of companions now

I understand that it would have been a ton of work to do so with the original class story companions but we're down to one story, one faction, one set of companions now

Even so, imagine how many permutations of the main story they would need to make in order to fit all the possible choices that people want. That's why characters who could be dead are relegated to paperweight duty...because it would cost too much to make that many versions of the story. Which leads me to believe that they won't introduce a kill option for Theron. Because if they do, he'll be gone from all story content as well, literally leaving one person - Lana.

Same here! Koth having his own opinions and deeply held values that he was actually willing to act on was extremely refreshing to me. It's definitely something I love and wish there was more of in SWtOR "choices have consequences" is super important to me, "not punishing the player" for certain choices is not. If I'm a murdering psycho that kills civilians for fun, good and peaceful characters shouldn't follow me. If I'm a goody two shoes, completely merciful pushover, ruthless and violent DS characters shouldn't follow me. This is also one of the reasons I hate Lana. She hates everything I do and every choice I make, I'm a jerk to her and tell her I don't trust her, etc...and she still acts like a lovesick puppy. The other characters at least act more neutral towards you.

 

The kind of one-size-fits all narrative makes Theron's betrayal or fake betrayal (he still endangers your life, realistically non force users wouldn't survive jumping out of a speeding train onto jagged rocks) hurt all the more. My Sith Inquisitor (for example) who romanced Theron is 100% LS, offers mercy to every enemy, rejects power offered, helps every civilian he can, and even supported the Republic over the Empire on Iokath for Theron (and because of the Empire's slaving ways) and yet he gets the same treatment as a 100% DS character who murders everyone he can just for fun including his own allies and/or spouse (if married to Kaliyo or Jorgan), oppresses everyone, seizes all power and becomes a dictator, etc...Both get treated like the second person with only a throwaway line of dialogue about the Alliance outgrowing you if you're good.

 

My friend who I had finally gotten to play and who romanced Theron finally finished Umbara and she's utterly heartbroken and pissed. Also she ended up hating Lana even more than I do lol.

My Inquisitor sounds exactly the same as yours, and he is heartbroken by Theron's betrayal. Even though I'm 99% sure all this is a double agent stuff doesn't mean he has the same views. All he knows is the man he loved, the first person he even told about his trauma and abuse as a slave in the Empire, has tried to kill him and is acting like he's somehow as bad as the Emperor. That's not something you easily come back from, even when the truth comes out. I worry that they'll gloss over the hurt this inflicted on our character and we'll only get an option to take him back no questions asked, or it'll only be an option to dump/reject/kill him instead. :/

I really adore Koth for someone who stands up for his principals and morals, I just really hate how much they've sidelined him since, and I fear Theron going the same way until it's just the Lana show.

I agree with the "one size fits all" assessment...however I think we need to take a step back and realize that this technically is a MMO, and not a single-player RPG like Dragon Age and Mass Effect. I know it does have that feel due to the cutscenes and conversations, but the budget is entirely different. They kinda have to go with "one size fits all" and for a MMO to inject a romance system into the game? I'll take it, because as far as I know, it's the only MMO that does it.

They kind of dug their own grave by starting out with class stories and romances. Now they've got a standard and when they don't live up to it, players get angry. Bioware has always been great with story and character development, and I hate to see that fall off because of a bunch of greedy pencil pushers...

Even so, imagine how many permutations of the main story they would need to make in order to fit all the possible choices that people want. That's why characters who could be dead are relegated to paperweight duty...because it would cost too much to make that many versions of the story. Which leads me to believe that they won't introduce a kill option for Theron. Because if they do, he'll be gone from all story content as well, literally leaving one person - Lana.

I agree with the "one size fits all" assessment...however I think we need to take a step back and realize that this technically is a MMO, and not a single-player RPG like Dragon Age and Mass Effect. I know it does have that feel due to the cutscenes and conversations, but the budget is entirely different. They kinda have to go with "one size fits all" and for a MMO to inject a romance system into the game? I'll take it, because as far as I know, it's the only MMO that does it.

Why? Why would a single player game be assumed to have a higher budget for its' expansions/DLCs? Why would one-size-fits-all be a prerequisite for having romances? I would think SWtOR would have a higher budget for expansions than a single player game because of all the money it makes from monthly subsriptions, gambling packs, pay to win, and other real money cash shop sales whereas a single player game like Dragon Age or Mass Effect has the initial sales and DLC sales only. The reason EA is pushing so hard to kill single player games and have all their games be online and contain microtransactions is because this model makes a lot more money than single player games. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic and these chapters are only so limited and disappointing because they're the equivalent of the Korriban/Tython/Manaan/Rakata Prime flashpoints and that the actual expansion will be better but for now I remain disappointed.

Anyway, regardless of the reasoning, whether that be a lazy "meh, good enough" path of least resistance for the quickest buck attitude or EA just not giving them the time or resources to make anything satisfactory the result is the same. Content that has become unsatisfying to me.

I really don't think it would cost some astronomical amount for Schrodinger's characters to have some lines if they're alive and just have an alternate line said by someone else who is guaranteed alive if Schrodinger's person is dead (preferably the alliance specialists and not Lana...).

 

 

 

Why? Why would a single player game be assumed to have a higher budget for its' expansions/DLCs? Why would one-size-fits-all be a prerequisite for having romances? I would think SWtOR would have a higher budget for expansions than a single player game because of all the money it makes from monthly subsriptions, gambling packs, pay to win, and other real money cash shop sales whereas a single player game like Dragon Age or Mass Effect has the initial sales and DLC sales only. The reason EA is pushing so hard to kill single player games and have all their games be online and contain microtransactions is because this model makes a lot more money than single player games. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic and these chapters are only so limited and disappointing because they're the equivalent of the Korriban/Tython/Makeb/Rakata Prime flashpoints and that the actual expansion will be better but for now I remain disappointed.

 

Anyway, regardless of the reasoning, whether that be a lazy "meh, good enough" path of least resistance for the quickest buck attitude or EA just not giving them the time or resources to make anything satisfactory the result is the same. Content that has become unsatisfying to me.

It is expensive when they're paying one of the highest paid and most sought after voice actors in the industry. Not to mention that the SWTOR team is small, teensy weensy in comparison to the teams that made Dragon Age and the Mass Effect trilogy (not so much Andromeda...which showed).

And when you add in multiple permutations of a story, you add in more $$$ in voice work, animation, and writing. Because you can't just swip n swap, otherwise you'll have characters that all act the same in those "multi-option" scenarios...and then people would complain about that. And if they do make the story different to fit different characters, you end up with some of the best romance lines in the game being locked behind a kill option that a lot of people just don't want to have to take (I'm looking at you, Theron...and only if you kill Arcann).

Single player RPG's have lead so far by example that they have the crazy in-depth stories and character development. Yes, SWTOR has some backstory media, but just look at all the development their flagship single-player games got.

I've tried most of the MMO's out there, and one of my biggest problems with them is lack of story. There are only a couple that have managed to keep me interested for any length of time, and SWTOR is one of them (LoTRO is the other). But, at the end of the day, I know that SWTOR is still a MMO.

I'm not asking for completely separate stories, those days are gone. I'm asking for variance when it makes sense(ex: two completely different "betrayal" scenes with Theron depending on your choices/alignment rather than one that assumes you're an evil tyrant but with a few throwaway lines recorded in a completely different tone interjected into the rant) and not turning companions into silent bricks. Not every companion has to be there all the time or interchangeable in every scene like in the class stories but there is almost no variance now. Speaking of romance, how are those Koth, Vette, Torian, Kaliyo, Quinn, Elara and Jorgan romances going? We haven't gained anything with the one size fits all approach and we retain less and less of what was good.

So far in an entire year we've gotten like half an hour of story scenes, it's not like they're so overburdened with this massive story that asking for a different line or scene here and there is a crazy request.

I'm not asking for completely separate stories, those days are gone. I'm asking for variance when it makes sense(ex: two completely different "betrayal" scenes with Theron depending on your choices/alignment rather than one that assumes you're an evil tyrant but with a few throwaway lines recorded in a completely different tone interjected into the rant) and not turning companions into silent bricks. Not every companion has to be there all the time or interchangeable in every scene like in the class stories but there is almost no variance now. Speaking of romance, how are those Koth, Vette, Torian, Kaliyo, Quinn, Elara and Jorgan romances going? We haven't gained anything with the one size fits all approach and we retain less and less of what was good.

 

So far in an entire year we've gotten like half an hour of story scenes, it's not like they're so overburdened with this massive story that asking for a different line or scene here and there is a crazy request.

But then if they did write two different train scenes on Umbara, they'd have to write different scenes involving Theron for everything else in the future. And if we go further, saying that one betrayal was real and one wasn't, then it is two completely different stories.

I totally get it, I'm just saying that giving that amount of writing costs $$$ for a game that most certainly isn't BioWare's flagship. SWTOR is teensy weensy in the realm of things...when you look at what they're currently working on (Dragon Age 4 which will almost certainly be a GOTY title as well as that other mech thing that the name escapes me on at the moment).

And I think they went the way of the "tyrant" with Theron saying the things he said, even if they don't fit, is because it was deliberately over the top and wrong on purpose. Because the betrayal was an act. I get that some folks still don't believe it, but BW pretty much blew the whistle on that already (you can see Theron's outfit in Collections, and it's called "Deep Cover Operative") so they've kinda sorta removed any and all guesswork (if there really was any).

If anything, the fake "tyrant" diatribe wouldn't fit truly Dark 5 evil characters...because it wouldn't be fake...and those are the characters that would deserve to be betrayed.