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Conquest Feedback and Upcoming Changes

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Conquest Feedback and Upcoming Changes
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

PorsaLindahl's Avatar


PorsaLindahl
03.25.2018 , 01:11 PM | #501
Quote: Originally Posted by Exly View Post
Only when objective are limited as you have said here to be one time objective. In the past, there were some of these, but there were also more repeatable objective for operations, warzones, Starfighter, heroics, crafting, flashpoints, and uprisings. So in the old system, 9 people with alts could and frequently did make it onto the leader board, and some were able to actually win planets. This too is because of math, but just not with the limited set of objectives that you choose to include in your argument.
I was actually able to get on the board pre-mergers, during Total Galactic War, with a 3 person guild and only 2 actives. And that was with making contributions to my main guild at the same time and reaching the personal goal with 3 characters in that guild. Now that'll definitely never happen again.

RudeDog's Avatar


RudeDog
03.25.2018 , 02:37 PM | #502
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Hey folks,

In this thread we want to cover a few things about Conquests: our goals for the revamp, the feedback we are hearing from all of you, and what we are changing (and when). I recommend you start by reading our write-up of the changes that were coming to 5.8. Let’s jump in.

The Conquest Revamp – Goals
We had a few things in mind that we wanted to address as we moved from the old system into the new one. First and foremost were rewards. This includes ensuring that the new system delivers the rewards you earn, but also increasing the overall rewards for participating in Conquests. Here are is what you receive now when you and your Guild complete a conquest:
  • A large amount of Credits and CXP via completion of Objectives
  • Personal rewards, including crafting materials, credits, and more
  • Invasion rewards, including crafting materials, credits, Encryptions, and more, which is now rewarded to all Guilds who meet the invasion target.
  • Access to the Fleet vendor which sells special decos and the Master Compendium (Companion Influence boost)

Here are some of the other areas we were aiming to address:
  • Objectives and their points – Conquests are meant to be an activity that someone can work on throughout the week as they play the game. Previously, Conquests were very homogenized in that there was very little diversity among each week. We used this opportunity to spread out what objectives were available in each Conquest.
  • Crafting - Crafting is a key part of Conquests, and we certainly did not want to remove that. However, we know the use of War Supplies and crafting was contributing too much to the overall competition of Conquests. For that reason, we reduced the overall effectiveness of Crafting, but added new functionality to War Supplies that they can be consumed to add Conquest points. Allowing you to get points out of them twice if you want, or you could craft them on one character and then move them to other characters to gain conquest points.
  • Yield Targets – Competition among different sized Guilds has always been a problem in Conquests. We introduced yield targets to assist in separating out Guilds by various sizes, as they have differing targets and rewards.
  • Interface – We gave the interface a facelift (as outlined in the other post) to make it easier to find activities you may want to complete.

Your Feedback
We never saw this revamp as being a perfect change out of the gates, but it is a first step for us in crafting an improved Conquest system. Your feedback is incredibly valuable as we can immediately start making changes to get things to a great place. Now that you understand what our goals were, let’s talk about the things we are hearing from you.

Changed / Missing Objectives
This feedback was most commonly expressed from PvP’ers who saw a daily objective for winning a Warzone, but not one for participating. Our plan to combat the old system’s homogenization was to spread out all Objectives. This week may not have participation as an Objective, but it isn’t gone, it is just in a different Conquest. However, this information was not clear and breaks too far from the old system.
Plan: We are going to add a repeatable GSF and Warzone Participation Objective into all Conquest weeks. This will go into our next patch (possibly next week).

Objective Points Too Low
With the rebalance to Conquest Objectives, there is a general sense that completing your Personal Conquest takes too long and by proxy, Guild Invasions as well.
Plan: We are going to lower the Personal Conquest target to 15,000 per week (down from 20,000). We are also adjusting the Planetary Yield Targets to be:
  • Small is now 200,000 (down from 460,000)
  • Medium is now 550,000 (down from 1,380,000)
  • Large is now 1,130,000 (down from 2,530,000)
    • This will happen in our next patch (possibly next week).

Crafting Changes Too Harsh
Crafting in Conquests was just too good prior to 5.8. There is a feeling though that we cut a bit too deep on its overall impact to Conquests. The War Supply schematics were combined which made them harder to craft, and their point contribution went down, even with the added functionality of being able to consume them.
Plan: We are going to give it some time and monitor the impact of these changes, and then we will make any needed adjustments in 5.9 or beyond.

Large Yield Target Rewards Aren’t Good Enough
We are seeing concerns that the Large (and possibly Medium) Yield rewards simply aren’t good enough to warrant the extra points required. That this may cause most Guilds to simply filter down into Small Yields, which is counter-productive to the goal of getting Guilds to split a bit by Guild size.
Plan: This is something we are sensitive to but without seeing actual participation data around Conquests, we are hesitant to make changes just yet. We will monitor in the coming weeks and make any needed changes in 5.9 and beyond.

New UI Confusion
There definitely is some confusion around the iconography in the new UI, especially for Objectives. For quick reference right now, Yellow icon means infinitely repeatable, Blue means daily repeatable, no icon means once per week.
Plan: With 5.9 we will be adjusting some text along with adding tooltips to ensure that is a bit clearer. We’re also going to be swapping the yellow/blue to be consistent with the rest of the game. In addition, we’ll be adding some additional fly text for Conquest Objective completion.

Punishing to Alts // Legacy
With the rebalance of Objective points and the reclassification of some Objective types, there is some concern over the ability for a player with multiple characters in a Legacy to be competitive in Conquests. Additionally, there are similar concerns for folks with characters within a Legacy in more than one Guild.
Plan: One initial step to resolve this is the lowering of the Conquest targets as highlighted above. Also, by adding more repeatable Objectives (like PvP participation) as noted, this should give players more ways to gain points and make it easier to achieve targets. Beyond that we will continue to monitor data and your feedback to seek other possible changes in 5.9 and beyond.

That is most of the major points of feedback we have seen coming in regarding the Conquest revamp, but we know it isn’t everything. Let us know your thoughts on the changes we have planned. Also, even after these changes are out the door please keep your feedback coming. We are committed to getting Conquests to be enjoyable, challenging, and rewarding.

Thanks everyone!

-eric
Thanks for listening, I guess. How about listening before you make stupid changes? Anyone with half a brain would have known these changes would irritate the players. You guys keep making poor changes and then spend months fixing (or not fixing) the mistakes you made. How about doing it right the first time.

Here is an idea:
  • Go the to suggestion forum
  • Find some suggestions that the majority of the players want
  • Implement those suggestions
  • Stop making decisions on your own; you have proven to be incompetent when it comes to decision making

RudeDog's Avatar


RudeDog
03.25.2018 , 02:40 PM | #503
Quote: Originally Posted by AlainaFlute View Post
"We never saw this revamp as being a perfect change out of the gates, but it is a first step for us in crafting an improved Conquest system. Your feedback is incredibly valuable as we can immediately start making changes to get things to a great place. Now that you understand what our goals were, let’s talk about the things we are hearing from you."

This is just wrong! I am not a beta tester! WE are NOT YOUR BETA TESTERS!! We pay to play a game that is NOT broken! This whole quote is what is wrong with this game and the dev team as a whole! Every patch should be perfect out of the gate! Every revamp, every new flashpoint, everything should be perfect right out the gate! Fix yourselves before you wreck the game entirely! It is your job to make it perfect before pushing it through to the game!
Thank you! Exactly right!

ivanhedgehog's Avatar


ivanhedgehog
03.25.2018 , 04:02 PM | #504
Quote: Originally Posted by Exly View Post
Only when objective are limited as you have said here to be one time objective. In the past, there were some of these, but there were also more repeatable objective for operations, warzones, Starfighter, heroics, crafting, flashpoints, and uprisings. So in the old system, 9 people with alts could and frequently did make it onto the leader board, and some were able to actually win planets. This too is because of math, but just not with the limited set of objectives that you choose to include in your argument.
900 engaged players will beat 9 engaged players. the weeks you won, the 900 werent actively trying. most likely only a small core group were trying.

DmdShiva's Avatar


DmdShiva
03.25.2018 , 05:42 PM | #505
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Objectives and their points – Conquests are meant to be an activity that someone can work on throughout the week as they play the game. Previously, Conquests were very homogenized in that there was very little diversity among each week. We used this opportunity to spread out what objectives were available in each Conquest.
"Complete a random flashpoint through Group Finder; must be eligible for the daily reward", IIRC for 1,000 points base, plus the occasional one-and-done per legacy "Complete flashpoint XXX in any mode" for another 1,000 points. One random flashpoint per day for five days -- "worked on throughout the week" -- got you the conquest reward for completing the five-veteran-flashpoints mission. In the revamped conquest, 'Complete Battle of Ilum on any difficulty mode" awards -- with a full stronghold bonus -- 325 points. But it's repeatable... which, for six days at max stronghold bonus, earns you less than you would have earned doing the daily random FP, the veteran-flashpoints mission, and the one-and-done Battle of Ilum under the old setup. Yes, we can work on it throughout the week... but we don't even come close to earning what we used to... and the personal conquest goal is the same.

Quote:
Crafting - Crafting is a key part of Conquests, and we certainly did not want to remove that. However, we know the use of War Supplies and crafting was contributing too much to the overall competition of Conquests. For that reason, we reduced the overall effectiveness of Crafting, but added new functionality to War Supplies that they can be consumed to add Conquest points. Allowing you to get points out of them twice if you want, or you could craft them on one character and then move them to other characters to gain conquest points.
So the crafting 150 characters who used to be able to craft war supplies and invasion forces, earning conquest points on their own, get relegated to making intermediate components and feeding them to the characters who can make the grade 8 and 9 intermediate components that are needed for every type of war supply, making them less able to participate in conquest by taking away one of their sources of conquest points.

If crafting is making up too much of conquest, change the rewards from a 'once per item' for war supplies to a set of tiered 'once per character' goals -- 'craft one war supply', 'craft five war supplies', 'craft 10 war supplies', 'craft 25 war supplies', etc. This allows both tuning the reward value for each tier of reward and varying the number of tiers available for a particular week -- a week might only have the 'craft one war supply' objective, like most of the weeks under the previous conquest setup, or could have the first three goals, or might be a full-blown crafting week, with goals up to, say, 500 war supplies.

Quote:
Interface – We gave the interface a facelift (as outlined in the other post) to make it easier to find activities you may want to complete.
A laudable goal... but taking away many of the choices of activity we used to have, and degrading the 'reward' for the ones that remain to a point where they're not worth the time to complete them, should have been seen from the beginning as a poor choice.

Quote:
Large Yield Target Rewards Aren’t Good Enough
We are seeing concerns that the Large (and possibly Medium) Yield rewards simply aren’t good enough to warrant the extra points required. That this may cause most Guilds to simply filter down into Small Yields, which is counter-productive to the goal of getting Guilds to split a bit by Guild size.
Plan: This is something we are sensitive to but without seeing actual participation data around Conquests, we are hesitant to make changes just yet. We will monitor in the coming weeks and make any needed changes in 5.9 and beyond.
Let's see... Base reward for 'small' invasions... 'medium' invasions have roughly three times the cost for one and a half times the reward... and 'large' invasions have roughly five times the cost for twice the rewards. Unless you're gating the more 'desirable' planets behind assigning them as 'large' invasions, there is zero incentive to invade anything other than a 'small' planet on the basis of the rewards you get. Someone at Bioware wrote the spiel for the vendor selling roast Gorak on Asylum... did no one see that you were doing the same thing with conquest rewards?

Morteistno's Avatar


Morteistno
03.25.2018 , 06:32 PM | #506
I am in a conquest oriented guild and we just (barely) managed to get the yield needed for invading a large planet. The last few hundredthousand points needed came from running killing illum republic base over and over again on alts.

This is not repeatable as an experience as the boredom and mindnumbingness of it all is not something I ever want to do again. I do hope that besides adding in the FP's and PVP again for conquest also the points for the activities get a decent look at so they are in line with how it was pre 5.8. I.e. where you could easily cap a multitude of characters from just doing some pvp, fp's, gsf, ops, crafting, heroics as a last resort aso.

It should be telling that previously you had 30 guilds getting the reward. I think there are less now. Looking at DM I see only 2 guilds qualifying for the large planet, 2 or 3 for the medium. Possibly there are many qualifying for the small planet, but you would and should expect that the large majority if not all of the top 10 on large and medium planets should also make the cap.

Now take away the 10K bug and the numbers would look much worse than they even do right now.

I do sincerely hope that FP's and PVP will not be added in with the insanely small reward you get for GSF, but with values very comparable to pre 5.8

DmdShiva's Avatar


DmdShiva
03.25.2018 , 07:55 PM | #507
Quote: Originally Posted by ceciltaru View Post
a. increase the amount of items a significant amount, based on their yield type. For example, level 50 influence companion, doing a grade 1 Rich yield mission, takes ~ 1 minute to complete, and nets by default if I remember correctly, 8 items, with a bonus of 2 or 3 items if the companion crits the mission. Tie the output to the character level if you have to, so that a normal leveling character is not producing tons of goods, but the output needs to be increased. That grade 1 Rich Yield, should be dropping at least 50 materials, Bountiful ~ 25, Abundant ~10, Moderate ~5, and the Wealthy ones from found missions should be at least 100 items gained. And yes, if you crit the mission, tie the companions influence into the bonus items, with a level 50 companion doubling the amount. give me a reason to have multiple level 50 companions.
Rather than doing this, have the tier difference when you send your companions out determine the level of reward you get. Send a companion out on a tier 1 mission for tier 1 rewards, or a tier 5 mission for tier 5 rewards, or a tier 10 mission for tier 10 rewards, and you get the basic return result. Send a companion out on a tier 2 mission for tier 1 rewards, and you get a higher return if successful. Each mission tier up past the tier of the rewards returns more mats. If you've got a Scavenging skill of 600, and you send a companion out with all of that skill behind them looking for Desh, they're going to be better at it than sending a companion out for Desh with a Scavenging skill of 10.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
03.25.2018 , 07:57 PM | #508
Quote: Originally Posted by DmdShiva View Post
Rather than doing this, have the tier difference when you send your companions out determine the level of reward you get. Send a companion out on a tier 1 mission for tier 1 rewards, or a tier 5 mission for tier 5 rewards, or a tier 10 mission for tier 10 rewards, and you get the basic return result. Send a companion out on a tier 2 mission for tier 1 rewards, and you get a higher return if successful. Each mission tier up past the tier of the rewards returns more mats. If you've got a Scavenging skill of 600, and you send a companion out with all of that skill behind them looking for Desh, they're going to be better at it than sending a companion out for Desh with a Scavenging skill of 10.
I like this idea.

DmdShiva's Avatar


DmdShiva
03.25.2018 , 09:40 PM | #509
Quote: Originally Posted by xordevoreaux View Post
PVE players, even with the rollout of 5.8 raw as it is now, were not excluded. We had not one but two rampages, and they were repeatable, meaning that you could kill 250 mobs on Hoth and 250 mobs on Illum for points as much as you wanted, and going forward, with the point requirement reduced from 20k to 15k for personal conquest goal, those points will go farther.
Ilum: Rampage. 1000 conquest points, x2 or x3 if invading Ilum, with a 150% bonus for maxed strongholds. That's 3500 to 4500 conquest points. Now, with a maxed stronghold bonus, it's 825 points. Repeatable once per day, that's four or five _days_ you have to dedicate toward getting the same points you could have earned from the one-and-done version it was before. But you can run it on other alts, too... and take away time more 'profitably' spent grinding your first character to get to their personal conquest goal.

Or look at the 'random flashpoint, must be eligible for daily reward' goal. 1000 points, another 1000 for Battle of Ilum at any difficulty, another 1000 for the five veteran flashpoint goal. 150% stronghold bonus, 15-30 minutes per flashpoint, and that's 15,000 conquest points for four characters in two hours, with an additional 2500 (and the Ilum invasion bonus for another 1000) for one character. One war supply at 2000 base for another 5000, an invasion force for another 2000 base/5000 end, and you've got personal conquest on two characters, with plenty of time during the week to run out 5000 points for each of the other two characters -- another daily flashpoint for each of them is half of that, and you've got the rampage for one character and any of the base personnel, commanders, operations, GSF, and PvP goals for the fourth -- and you still have time to work on leveling a character or two. But now Bioware's made it more 'challenging', which seems to mean 'grind your tuchis off and you can get it on one character, good luck getting it on two; forget three or four unless you don't have a life', with new ways to throw the time and effort you put into gathering mats for war supplies and invasion forces down a rathole -- seriously, destroying war supplies for a little extra conquest points, after they jacked the cost of making them into the sky and disenfranchised the low-skill characters in the process?

And the guild invasion rewards -- you get a base return for invading a 'small' planet, one and a half times the reward for meeting a goal three times as high, or twice the reward for meeting a goal five times as high. And being in the top ten while doing it. Most conquest guilds don't pick their targets on the basis of the reward, they do it because their guild members need the planet to complete their conquest. If a large guild needs the planet selected as a 'small' invasion, they'll do it, and the small guilds now competing against a large guild are SoL.

DmdShiva's Avatar


DmdShiva
03.25.2018 , 09:51 PM | #510
Quote: Originally Posted by ShadowGovernator View Post
I see what you did there - you played their broken turd of a conquest system - expecting it to be a rewarding experience.
Let me stop you right there - it's no longer rewarding even in the slightest way.
That's not true; I found it to be quite rewarding -- I got both of the world boss goals without a problem. That I got them while running the CZ-198 dailies, each one for defeating a basic mob was a problem, and points up how broken the system is.

But it can be both broken and rewarding -- the latter just not the way Bioware intended.