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Expertise, 50 bracket and PvP rewaprds


lugialeonhart

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Why Expertise sucks.

 

Expertise, as it has been stated many times, is a zero-sum arms race. Two players with 10% Expertise each resolve a fight exactly the same as two players with no Expertise at all. The only time Expertise comes into play is with differing values, the worst of which is a fresh level 50 with no Expertise suddenly placed into a Warzone with experienced 50s.

 

As it stands right now Expertise is an artificial barrier to enjoyment in PvP. Fresh level 50s entering Warzones are required to face geared PvP veterans who not only have more play experience, but stand with a 20% advantage in addition to any stat difference. A fresh 50 has ~12000HP and facing a Battlemaster with ~18000HP is already hard enough without dealing 10% less damage and receiving 10% more.

 

These players basically have to weather this frustrating transitional period, likely being excluded from PvP groups until they are able to grind enough PvP gear to stand on a somewhat even footing.

 

The level 50 bracket is useless.

 

The level 50 only bracket is a terrible and arbitrary distinction. I hate to reference Blizzard at all but I wish it was instead setup like Starcraft 2’s leagues. Players level 10-50 by default play in a novice league, while more experienced 50s are assigned to progressively higher leagues based on either their valor rank, average warzone performance or simply Expertise level.

 

Hard brackets are terrible for PvP participation. As players on low population servers are painfully aware a hard 50-only bracket has resulted in insane queue times for them. This problem is going to work itself out as players level up but then the inverse will become true; low-level PvP queue times will steadily increase, discouraging participation and worsening queue times further – a viscious circle.

 

The soft brackets implemented on release ere the best solution to this problem ever conceived, and could have worked wonders if made somewhat more aggressive.

 

Firstly, players should be generally grouped not by level but my Expertise rating, or league, or valor rank. Levels are nearly meaningless thanks to the awesomeness which is Bolster. The queue system needs to make its best effort to pit similar players against eachother but if this is not possible than anyone who is in the queue should get a game.

 

Second, the tam assignments should be much less random. I’m sure everyone has been in the PUG Huttball game where the lion’s share of level 50s are on one team. If the teams were stacked evenly the match could be much more enjoyable instead of a steamroll.

 

Third, performs should be pitted against other performs when possible. But again if another perform is not available the system should fall back and match them with a PUG, weighting the teams and placing stronger players on the opposing side.

 

Why Expertise is a necessary evil right now.

 

Do not get me wrong in reading this, I am a huge proponent of equality between PvE and PvP gear rewards.

 

As it stands right now, PvP gear rewards do not require victory to obtain. This is the sad truth, a player can get to level 50 and lose every Warzone, die a million times, never kill anyone, ignore objectives and as long as he scores one medal his valor increases and he earns commendations. Certainly, winning and performing better brings in the gear faster but inevitably anyone who does enough Warzones can reach Valor Rank 60 and earn a complete set of Battlemaster PvP gear.

 

This does not mesh with PvE rewards which have a distinct requirement: kill the boss. It does not matter the relative or absolute difficulty of the PvE bosses available in the game*, what matters is that the requirement is there. You cannot wipe to the boss 100 times and walk away with gear.

 

Thus at this time I have to admit that Expertise is a necessary evil. Until PvP systems are in place which require and reward victory a PvP stat is the best way to distinguish farmable gear.

 

*Personally I find PvE content easy, bugs aside I haven’t had much difficulty with hard mode raids and my group is not exceptionally geared by any means.

 

The ultimate goal: Gear reward equality.

 

Once the game has PvP systems which reward winning rather than simply participating, it opens up a wide range of possibilities.

 

I ultimately want to see PvP and PvE gear rewards absolutely equal in statistical value. It should not be anyone’s concern if a player from one venue of end-game progression is able to use his hard-earned rewards in the other. Remember, the gear is statistically equal! If you feel superior in your role then your skill and experience should bring you victory, not an artificial advantage.

 

More stats are not the only possible reward in either case. Since the game’s modding system allows for vast customization in appearance, I’d like to see distinctive gear sets introduced as rewards. There’s no reason to be restricted to one model with a texture re-color to encompass three tiers of content. Item mod sets could include unique set bonuses allowing players to customize these perks.

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My name is MegaBubble, and I approve the OP's message.

 

Additionally, I think one of the problems with Expertise is that it's exclusively an endgame stat (with the exception of PvP weaons.) Why? If there was PvP gear every 5-7 levels or so starting at level 10, with appropriately increasing amounts of Expertise throughout the levels, then there wouldn't be such a huge disparity between the haves and the have nots when it comes to acquiring endgame PvP gear.

 

Another idea I had was for Expertise to be tied to a players Valor rank rather than to his gear. Each valor rank could represent a % increase in Expertise. In this way, you 1) still reward the people that PvP often, 2) avoid a situation where only someone who has been level 50 long enough to get "geared" can truly be effective at endgame PvP, and 3) avoid the issue of every endgame PvPer looking the same as everyone else in their class. (Edit: Oh, and I forgot #4: it gets rid of the annoyingly random nature of acquiring endgame gear that presently exists.) Its a win win, imo.

 

Either way, it's very telling that people seem to enjoy level 10 - 49 PvP more than level 50 PvP. That's a sure indicator that something is amiss with the PvP system - and the only variable that's different between the two brackets is the Expertise stat. Fix it or get rid of it entirely, imo.

Edited by MegaBubble
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But.... but.... but... what are the people who are unable to win due to their low skill level and ignorance suppose to do? :confused: It would be unfair if people who are good and are able to win gets better PvP gear than the people who mindlessly run around and never will participate in competitive PvP anyway. I propose a new rule; The worse you are, the easier it should be to get gear! Maybe reward an extra bag to people who never pass in Huttball or always leaves when the score goes 0-1....! Also if you are unable to raid, you should just get raid gear for free so it's fair!!

 

End of Sarcasm!

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For now like you said expertise is a must , this is the reward that pvp players get for playing , most people talk about taking out expertise because they dont want to put effort in getting valor , they may call us bad players for hold to our high rank gear , but we also seem them as bad players who just want things freely.

 

To take out expertise they must add something of same valor that makes people PvP.

 

And people who say , PvP only for the fun of it , only 1% of you are players that put effort into something , the others are just trying to give excuses.

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Good post. Tbh i dont mind if they remove the expertise stat, but if they do the gear has to be equal as the pve gear. Just as you wrote.

 

Usually disagree with ppl who think the pvp stat has to be removed. They kinda dont get that you'd still be facerolled by pve players equally hard.

 

So +1 to you \o/

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But.... but.... but... what are the people who are unable to win due to their low skill level and ignorance suppose to do? :confused: It would be unfair if people who are good and are able to win gets better PvP gear than the people who mindlessly run around and never will participate in competitive PvP anyway. I propose a new rule; The worse you are, the easier it should be to get gear! Maybe reward an extra bag to people who never pass in Huttball or always leaves when the score goes 0-1....! Also if you are unable to raid, you should just get raid gear for free so it's fair!!

 

End of Sarcasm!

 

Sarcasm aside - I do find the notion of rewarding better PvPers by making them even more effective rather silly. That's the equivalent of rewarding the superbowl champions with the first round draft pick.

 

"Oh, Lebron, you're the leagues leading scorer? To reward your skills each of your shots will now be worth three points, and each of your three-point shots will now be worth four. Let's see players with less skill and ability than you compete against you now!"

 

For this primary reason the Expertise stat really needs to go entirely afaic, it's stupid. But if you're going to have it, at least try to implement it in a way that allows pvP to be fun for more than just the hardcores that raced to 50, raced to battlemaster, and live in the warzones to the exclusion of everything else the game has to offer.

Edited by MegaBubble
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My solution to the the problem is a bit more radical but probably the most effective approach: eliminate special pvp gear from the game and normalize all gear in pvp so that no one has the advantage. That means if you are wearing lvl 15 pve gear and you face some one in the most elite pve raiding gear, your gear is suddenly buffered to those same levels.

 

 

Of course, pvp has to also award gear similar to what you get from pve. This will allow people who choose to level with pvp to at least be competitive in similar level pve if they so choose.

 

I also think that you could award special pvp armors and weapons at high levels to show achievment, but these should mostly be cosmetic. In fact, I'd love to see better looking armor across the board, especially for republic.

Edited by lordniah
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The OP thinks Bolster makes level not matter. This is a joke. Prior to the 50 bracket being separated, level 12's were useless in PvP, even if they had a clue what they were doing, because an even vaguely geared 50 would have 4-6k more HP, and hit for close to twice as much. It was the exact same "issue" people complain about with a fresh 50 facing a geared 50 with a pile of Expertise.

 

As best I could determine, bolster scales based on Item level relative to character level, and item quality relative to character level. Roughly. In other words, since the odds of a leveling toon being in all their-level purple quality gear is roughly nil, they'll never have sufficient stats to take a geared 50 1v1 unless there's a skill gap a mile wide.

 

The OP sounds like he wants to be able to have top end gear without working for it. (Note, I'm in about half champion, and the gap has yet to cause me any significant issues.) The fact is, this is typical MMO design. Things that give you a reason to spend more hours playing are key to success. Some artificial inflation of play time has to exist, since there's a guaranteed disparity between developer time and play time for any given area, unless a grind is introduced.

 

The purpose of a PvP stat (which comes at the expense of primary attributes, such as Strength and Endurance, at the same tier) is to make the ideal gear for a form of content the gear you get FROM that content. This is a good way to reward people appropriately for what they do, as their gear will be optimized just a bit better than that of someone who chose to avoid that content.

 

As such, Expertise in and of itself isn't a bad thing. I think it could be argued it's a bit overdone as is, yes, but the stat itself isn't terrible. I do understand that they're trying to give "everyone" a bonus, by giving the increase to damage, damage reduction, and healing, but I'd say slashing the damage/damage redux bonuses by 50% each, so it's an identical swing to healing would be good. Or even make the function of your expertise be based off your set bonus, or a talent. So healers would have something added in a high tier talent that makes "expertise now increases your healing done", or some such. Letting people choose.

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Sounds like you just want to penalize the ppl that live in the battlegrounds and have aquired so much expertise gear.

Your playing an MMO ....the game is designed to be time sink. put in more time get better gear. Some maniacs race to be the top player as fast as they can and then they stomp on the slower paced players.

 

All in all it comes down to .....player A spent 300 hours playing this week player B spent 10 hours playing this week...........this thread has player B whining cause player A has an advantage with a gear stat that player B still has to spend about 290 hours to get.

 

Player B may be better skilled then Player A but guess what Player A spent more of his life preparing to sh*t all over Player B. Player B now plots his revenge advertises the game on multiple forums and complains to every player that he comes across for the next 4 months (marketing?). Player B finally catches up to Player A in gear ......Player A now cries that Player B's class is Over-powered. And the cycle continues as Player C installs the game and runs into Player B.

 

Exerptise is not a bullsh*t stats ......its a stat rewarded to show time committed.

Rakata gear is rewarded for PvE players that follow the same line of a time sink.

 

Every MMO is about time invested into claiming your pixel rewards.

This game rewards PvP players that sink there life into the game with expertise.

 

its not fair you say ? Its not fair that one player can sink 300 hours into a game and come on the same playing field as a player that puts in 10 hours.

 

You want to talk about skill. Either sink your time in to play with the best gear or wait it out till you can be competitive.

 

I'm sure several ppl will have there say but all in all if your not sinking your time into any MMO your not gonna gain the best rewards in a timely fashion.

 

And a fresh 50 with interest in PvP should already have some decent gear on and his skill will allow him to overcome the ****** battlemaster that just afk farmed his way to the top.

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If I was a fresh 50 then I would pvp to get gear, like I have done. When I get smoked in a ton wz's (and still do) it makes me push harder to get better gear and improve my game play. I have no problem with that stat and welcome the statisical increase as I'm not much of a raider.

 

In my opinion, if you have a problem with it just get the gear and use it. Pvp gear is always going to have an advantage in pvp and the same goes with raid gear.

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Expertise based on Valor rank is actually great idea. But first we would need to punish afkers and bug abusers.

 

I'm glad you posted that because I was starting to think I was the only person that thought this was a good idea.

 

If they made Expertise a stat based on Valor rank and made Valor increase and decrease based on win/lose it would be a lot harder to exploit.

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But.... but.... but... what are the people who are unable to win due to their low skill level and ignorance suppose to do? :confused: It would be unfair if people who are good and are able to win gets better PvP gear than the people who mindlessly run around and never will participate in competitive PvP anyway. I propose a new rule; The worse you are, the easier it should be to get gear! Maybe reward an extra bag to people who never pass in Huttball or always leaves when the score goes 0-1....! Also if you are unable to raid, you should just get raid gear for free so it's fair!!

 

End of Sarcasm!

 

Ironic since you don't really have to win more than you lose to get Valor. What do you say to people that are Battlemaster from fightclubbing Dailies by lining up and taking turns killing each other? Because they are doing exactly what you describe.

Edited by MorgonKara
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