Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

What happened to SWTOR? Some insight by Jeff Nyman (game tester)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion > Off-Topic
What happened to SWTOR? Some insight by Jeff Nyman (game tester)
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

OlBuzzard's Avatar


OlBuzzard
09.12.2019 , 07:32 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
They once had a working formula at LucasArts, and the studios they licensed out to later on.

Dark Forces, dark Forces 2 Jedi Knight, Jedi Knight 2 Jedi Outcast, Jedi Knight Jedi Academy, X-Wing, TIE fighter, X-Wing vs TIE fighter, X-Wing Alliance.

All of these were very well received. Kotor was the biggest Star Wars game of them all is well. The Force Unleashed also gets a lot of good recognition. And I know there are some others that I am missing. Even Star Wars racer was a lot of fun despite some limitations and issues.

So it is entirely possible. I think the issue comes in when the developers aren't trying to make a good Star Wars game but instead are trying to say, compete with wow or in the case of Force Commander just half-assing it or perhaps Under Pressure to put out something that isn't ready.

I think if nothing else, Star Wars suffers from what a lot of video games suffer from now:

Mega publishers who have tight schedules and demand games be released on certain dates. Gone are the days of a small Studio working on the game and when it's ready it's ready and then they announced it. The only Studios who have that luxury now are ID and CD projekt Red. Everywhere else is a slave to the bean counters which is why video games as an art form have tanked and become very copycat.
Hmmm

Ya know I read a lot of your responses.. and frequently we might disagree A Lot of times we agree too.

This post is pretty close to the mark ! It's not over stated (IMO) . Well done on this one !! Seriously well done !

For my own thoughts on OP... I respectfully will disagree with parts and segments .. while there might be an "element" of truth .. I also see parts of caution !

I respect OP's attempt to try to explain where we are today with SWTOR. But honestly I would prefer not alienating my self from BW staff right now (or even from OP if that were possible).

That action on my part might be walking a bit of a tight rope (another old saying from years back) But that's just where I'm at right now ! I hope that makes sense.
(████████████████████████████]:|█[ioi]█[|||████]|█|

kodrac's Avatar


kodrac
09.12.2019 , 07:39 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by OlBuzzard View Post
I would prefer not alienating my self from BW staff right now
You're a paying customer. They need to worry about alienating themselves from you. You have nothing to fear. Don't give them, or anyone for that matter, power over you through deference.
Quote: Originally Posted by aerockyul View Post
Id find it hard to believe this sort of thing goes on in the preferential treatment forum.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jdast View Post
or Kodrac, for saying everything I want to say, but he takes one for team and gets a warning.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
09.12.2019 , 07:42 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by OlBuzzard View Post
Hmmm

Ya know I read a lot of your responses.. and frequently we might disagree A Lot of times we agree too.

This post is pretty close to the mark ! It's not over stated (IMO) . Well done on this one !! Seriously well done !

For my own thoughts on OP... I respectfully will disagree with parts and segments .. while there might be an "element" of truth .. I also see parts of caution !

I respect OP's attempt to try to explain where we are today with SWTOR. But honestly I would prefer not alienating my self from BW staff right now (or even from OP if that were possible).

That action on my part might be walking a bit of a tight rope (another old saying from years back) But that's just where I'm at right now ! I hope that makes sense.
I trust what Jeff Nyman had to say because he has no agenda that I can tell. He has no agenda, and he isn't overly passionate and emotional as some of us players can get when trying to make sense of what happened to SWTOR.

Also, I have to trust that he knows actual details that other people have no idea about because of his position while working in the field of gaming development particularly this game. He was involved in testing it, and does have some internal insight which is something none of us have.

We only can guess and theorize whereas Jeff adds a real source of factual information. I believe his take on things and his explanations put my mind at ease. His posts relieved a lot of frustration i once had with this game lol. Basically he answered questions I always wanted to get from BW but knew I'd never get!
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
09.12.2019 , 07:46 AM | #14
Just to point out, I added more of Jeff Nyman's statements and posts above, where he goes into detail about influencers, and about the data center fiasco where they removed the west coast servers.

(It got buried above by posts so just want to point it out in case anyone wants to read what Jeff said about those topics.)
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

OlBuzzard's Avatar


OlBuzzard
09.12.2019 , 07:54 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by kodrac View Post
You're a paying customer. They need to worry about alienating themselves from you. You have nothing to fear. Don't give them, or anyone for that matter, power over you through deference.
Please believe me when I tell you I get that ! I really do !

And I appreciate your concerns and that of others. In fact I would dare say that most of the anxiety over the entire matter of the games directions stims from the past history of the game. I understand that as well.

I do believe that drawing any conclusions over that continued direction would hinge largely over PTS update next week. Even still .. Sticking closer to OP stuff: While there are a lot of interesting things on the site that was posted .. IMO there is still something missing. I don't know what. I can't put my finger on it . Sooo If it's cool with you I think I'll just let it go at that. I'm not saying that the information is good or bad right or wrong. I'm just not entirely sure.

BTW... thanks for the response ! I do appreciate your insight !
(████████████████████████████]:|█[ioi]█[|||████]|█|

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
09.12.2019 , 09:01 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
Just to point out, I added more of Jeff Nyman's statements and posts above, where he goes into detail about influencers, and about the data center fiasco where they removed the west coast servers.

(It got buried above by posts so just want to point it out in case anyone wants to read what Jeff said about those topics.)
Based on what I have seen over the years with this game, the decisions, and the leaks surrounding it pre-launch...

Everything Jeff said just "feels" true. It has that ring of authenticity. It's not overstated, it is grounded in how real world business works, etc.

A good summation though I think would be this:
  • BioWare is (Mostly) to blame for SWTOR's Failure, not EA
  • EA's contribution was the insistance SWTOR compete with WOW.
  • SWTOR isn't technically "underfunded".
  • The Game as originally conceived may have done better, as it was more single player with some multi-player elements.
  • KotFE was always the intended ending...for Jedi and Sith in the original iteration.
  • Server Consolidation had to do with rising datacenter costs, not player population.
  • From the beginning, BioWare adopted a model of "its ok if players leave and come back when there is new content." - they never planned for sustained content.
  • SWTOR isn't even on the radar other than as a "learning tool" for EA. Meaning SWTOR 2 is extremely unlikely.
  • Bioware never really intended to have all these classes originally - it came from EA wanting the game to be more MMO-like.
  • Every decision since then has been BioWare's, not EAs, to streamline the stories and get back to the dual stories they wanted to try to tell in the first place.
  • Everything from Ossus on is new, uncharted territory.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
09.12.2019 , 09:48 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post
Based on what I have seen over the years with this game, the decisions, and the leaks surrounding it pre-launch...

Everything Jeff said just "feels" true. It has that ring of authenticity. It's not overstated, it is grounded in how real world business works, etc.

A good summation though I think would be this:
  • BioWare is (Mostly) to blame for SWTOR's Failure, not EA
  • EA's contribution was the insistance SWTOR compete with WOW.
  • SWTOR isn't technically "underfunded".
  • The Game as originally conceived may have done better, as it was more single player with some multi-player elements.
  • KotFE was always the intended ending...for Jedi and Sith in the original iteration.
  • Server Consolidation had to do with rising datacenter costs, not player population.
  • From the beginning, BioWare adopted a model of "its ok if players leave and come back when there is new content." - they never planned for sustained content.
  • SWTOR isn't even on the radar other than as a "learning tool" for EA. Meaning SWTOR 2 is extremely unlikely.
  • Bioware never really intended to have all these classes originally - it came from EA wanting the game to be more MMO-like.
  • Every decision since then has been BioWare's, not EAs, to streamline the stories and get back to the dual stories they wanted to try to tell in the first place.
  • Everything from Ossus on is new, uncharted territory.
Yeah this is pretty spot on with how I took the information too. You really read every bit of his posts it seems, I am surprised and impressed! That's a lot of stuff to peruse and you summarized it all.

I found it refreshing to read from someone that actually appears to have a clue, though. All of us have our opinions and theories, but not the insight Jeff Nyman has.

The biggest take away from his posts I got was that BW holds a lot of the responsibility for the state of the game, not EA.

People love to use EA as an excuse as to why BW does what they do, and this is not fair imo. Not so much EA getting blamed, I don't have a lot of love for EA either. But I don't like how people absolve BW of all blame. The biggest problem I see is mismanagement by BW.

Now, I suppose we could say "well, if EA actually monitored and controlled BW better, maybe the game would be better!" I think EA gave and has given BW tons of flexibility to allow them artistic freedoms but this freedom ended up hurting the game, BW, and EA.

I liken this situation to the parent that tries to be a friend to their kids instead of actually parenting them... The child usually ends up undisciplined and just a mess as an adult when it's all said and done.

What the game appears to be now is a disjointed, disorganized mess. Seems we need a responsible parent to take control and set up some structure for SWTOR but unfortunately it's probably a bit late for that now.
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

ZionHalcyon's Avatar


ZionHalcyon
09.12.2019 , 09:55 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
Yeah this is pretty spot on with how I took the information too. ^

I found it refreshing to read from someone that actually appears to have a clue, though. All of us have our opinions and theories, but not the insight Jeff Nyman has.

The biggest take away from his posts I got was that BW holds a lot of the responsibility for the state of the game, not EA.

People love to use EA as an excuse as to why BW does what they do, and this is not fair imo. Not so much EA getting blamed, I don't have a lot of love for EA either. But I don't like how people absolve BW of all blame. The biggest problem I see is mismanagement by BW.

Now, I suppose we could say "well, if EA actually monitored and controlled BW better, maybe the game would be better!" I think EA gave and has given BW tons of flexibility to allow them artistic freedoms but this freedom ended up hurting the game, BW, and EA.

I liken this situation to the parent that tries to be a friend to their kids instead of actually parenting them... The child usually ends up undisciplined and just a mess as an adult when it's all said and done.

What the game appears to be now is a disjointed, disorganized mess. Seems we need a responsible parent to take control and set up some structure for SWTOR but unfortunately it's probably a bit late for that now.
For what it's worth, I do think that is what Keith is trying to do. However most of the decisions made are usually done quietly in the development Studio. But with Keith and this expansion, everything is being made public and tested.

Just my perspective but in light of this information I think there is a reason for this:

BioWare still really doesn't know how to make a proper MMO.

So I think what they are doing is trying some different things and collecting feedback from the players in order to tweak or change things to try to get this right because they don't know what direction to go right off the bat.

And because every player has a different take on how things should run they can't you just listen to the players. They do need to have a Direction but they need to try to find The Sweet Spot of what makes the most people the happiest on a sliding scale that also maintains game balance.

In that regard, I think it the heart is in the right place and Keith is trying to straighten some things out, but BioWare still isn't really sure how to go about this properly, so now they are taking more of a collaborative stance with the players.

Honestly the whole thing with Jeff makes BioWare look less nefarious and more just incompetent. But I think they are trying to remedy that, even though there obviously are some Growing Pains given the original state of the pts loot system.

Speaking of, check the dev tracker. Musco announce that they got some changes in for this week and they appear to be pretty good ones. Going to log into pts tonight and have a look-see.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
09.12.2019 , 10:03 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by ZionHalcyon View Post

Honestly the whole thing with Jeff makes BioWare look less nefarious and more just incompetent.
Exactly. ^

This is why I ended up being less frustrated and pissed off after reading Nyman's posts. For years I really wanted to know WHY the game went the route it did. I had so many questions and queries!

When he wrote on these forums, I then seen the game and even BW in a different light. I harbored far less anger and resentment, instead more disappointment and sadness. Not exactly the best of emotions, but at least I was able to sort of move on mentally and even emotionally.

Having some sort of answers where for years I had not found anything that shed any light on the game and how it was developed, and how it's being developed even now brought me some closure of sorts.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like nothing more than for this game to hit a second wind, pick up subs and make some real strides as a game. I just have little to no expectations now, whereas for many years in the past my expectations were very high for the game.
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

kodrac's Avatar


kodrac
09.12.2019 , 10:09 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
People love to use EA as an excuse as to why BW does what they do, and this is not fair imo. Not so much EA getting blamed, I don't have a lot of love for EA either. But I don't like how people absolve BW of all blame. The biggest problem I see is mismanagement by BW.
They also like to use EA as an excuse to say the studio is underfunded and it's a shame because the SW IP is a license to print money. They're not underfunded and they are printing money. It's how they reinvest it. They just built a new studio and recently filled newly created positions. They're not hurting for cash.
Quote: Originally Posted by aerockyul View Post
Id find it hard to believe this sort of thing goes on in the preferential treatment forum.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jdast View Post
or Kodrac, for saying everything I want to say, but he takes one for team and gets a warning.