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Jeremy Soule (Former SWTOR, Elder Scrolls, and GW Composer) accused of assault

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion > Off-Topic
Jeremy Soule (Former SWTOR, Elder Scrolls, and GW Composer) accused of assault

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FlameYOL
08.28.2019 , 06:48 AM | #2
I've heard of this yesterday... not happy about it in the slightest.
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Celise
08.28.2019 , 08:42 AM | #3
misleading title there, being accused of assault is different from sexual assault.

Not sure what to make of any of this, i'd want to read Jeremy's opinion in order to get a better idea. Still 10 years is a long time between the incident in question and this accusation coming out. Something changed for the accuser obviously that allowed her go so public about it.

Even with the accusation, it comes down to proving there was something in that whole thing, which unfortunately is going to be difficult to prove and even if one or two things aligned for the accuser, it still isn't enough. It is likely to destroy two careers, hers and his the longer this goes on for.

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TonyTricicolo
08.28.2019 , 09:17 AM | #4
I feel sorry for guys in general because nowadays accusation is equal to guilt. Something minute can be blown out of proportion on the whim of the accuser. A comment, a look, a reaction, or an idiosyncrasy can be easily misinterpreted. To clarify and not sound sexiest, if the guy did it he deserves punishment however, there is a trend of women that lie and manipulate, or make a scene, or cry wolf, and exaggerate things that happen. Create enough attention and it sways opinion. People become guilty before even getting a chance to defend themselves. Everyone is hypersenstive and easily triggered, looking for controversy so they can start a fight or gain notoriety on social media or simply enjoy ruining people's careers.
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MadDutchman's Avatar


MadDutchman
08.28.2019 , 07:21 PM | #5
As always with these cases, I await evidence.

If there is enough to convict the accused, throw the book at them.

If there is enough to convict the accuser (perjury, defamation), throw the book at them.
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Ardrossan
09.02.2019 , 06:50 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyTricicolo View Post
I feel sorry for guys in general because nowadays accusation is equal to guilt. Something minute can be blown out of proportion on the whim of the accuser. A comment, a look, a reaction, or an idiosyncrasy can be easily misinterpreted. To clarify and not sound sexiest, if the guy did it he deserves punishment however, there is a trend of women that lie and manipulate, or make a scene, or cry wolf, and exaggerate things that happen. Create enough attention and it sways opinion. People become guilty before even getting a chance to defend themselves. Everyone is hypersenstive and easily triggered, looking for controversy so they can start a fight or gain notoriety on social media or simply enjoy ruining people's careers.
Until quite recently [and I tend to doubt we're as progressive as some are afraid we are], it was the other way around. Accusations of rape were *disbelieved* on sight, and the women shamed into silence. Much like your post, for instance, where you've started off on the assumption that the accuser is lying [which is apparently a big trend, and an excellent scapegoat for disbelieving rape accusations in the future] taken the original accusation of rape, and turned it into 'people are hypersensitive and triggered'. Yes, I imagine RAPE would genuinely be triggering, don't you think? Or where you go on to imply that the women who make these accusations are famewhores who just want to ruin lives.

Oh, and before you continue with the 'not to sound sexist' stuff, but I've personally had false accusations of sexual harassment against me. And I've also had nearly every female friend tell me at some point that they were sexually harassed, some assaulted, and they said NOTHING. Because it was someone close to them, because they didn't want to make waves, or they wanted to put it behind them, or they were just afraid of being slurred by people all too happy to take the man's side.

So between the two, in MY opinion the potential for false rape accusations is the lesser evil to the much greater evil of assuming the victim is actually a manipulative psychopath straight out of the Sith Academy. As well, the incidental evil of normalizing rape as 'hypersensitivity'. This is rape culture. Get a good long look at it.
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Lhancelot
09.03.2019 , 12:46 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by MadDutchman View Post
As always with these cases, I await evidence.
This is always my take on cases. No reason to draw conclusions without all the facts.
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Rolodome
09.03.2019 , 05:20 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardrossan View Post
Until quite recently [and I tend to doubt we're as progressive as some are afraid we are], it was the other way around. Accusations of rape were *disbelieved* on sight, and the women shamed into silence. Much like your post, for instance, where you've started off on the assumption that the accuser is lying [which is apparently a big trend, and an excellent scapegoat for disbelieving rape accusations in the future] taken the original accusation of rape, and turned it into 'people are hypersensitive and triggered'. Yes, I imagine RAPE would genuinely be triggering, don't you think? Or where you go on to imply that the women who make these accusations are famewhores who just want to ruin lives.

Oh, and before you continue with the 'not to sound sexist' stuff, but I've personally had false accusations of sexual harassment against me. And I've also had nearly every female friend tell me at some point that they were sexually harassed, some assaulted, and they said NOTHING. Because it was someone close to them, because they didn't want to make waves, or they wanted to put it behind them, or they were just afraid of being slurred by people all too happy to take the man's side.

So between the two, in MY opinion the potential for false rape accusations is the lesser evil to the much greater evil of assuming the victim is actually a manipulative psychopath straight out of the Sith Academy. As well, the incidental evil of normalizing rape as 'hypersensitivity'. This is rape culture. Get a good long look at it.
Well said.

Sometimes people seem to miss that if something is a straightforward "he said, she said" incident and they presume the accused is innocent until "evidence" comes forth, they are, in the process, sometimes presuming the accuser is lying (as opposed to thinking of it like an unknown). They may not think of it in that way, consciously, but when it comes to public figures that have a positive image surrounding the work they've produced, it's unlikely that anyone who is even remotely a fan of their work is going to be truly unbiased when they say "innocent until proven guilty."

I mean, I've been there. When I first heard about the Cosby stuff, I was in disbelief. It took time for me to accept the reality of it, as the evidence mounted against him. Not every case has mounting evidence that makes it easier to accept though. Some are harder to prove, or there are less reported incidents (or less incidents period) and there may never be enough to convince people who are clinging to the image of a creator who brought joy to their life.

The statistical likelihood may be that the accusations are true, but that's a rational thing, not an emotional attachment to somebody's creative work. And giving up the emotional attachment, or having to re-contextualize it, can be a loss for people, so I think it gets personal fast with these accusations levied toward public figures in entertainment. The default is "wait and see" at best because nobody wants to have to re-contextualize something they love as something potentially horrific.
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MadDutchman's Avatar


MadDutchman
09.03.2019 , 07:07 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Ardrossan View Post
Until quite recently [and I tend to doubt we're as progressive as some are afraid we are], it was the other way around. Accusations of rape were *disbelieved* on sight, and the women shamed into silence. Much like your post, for instance, where you've started off on the assumption that the accuser is lying [which is apparently a big trend, and an excellent scapegoat for disbelieving rape accusations in the future] taken the original accusation of rape, and turned it into 'people are hypersensitive and triggered'. Yes, I imagine RAPE would genuinely be triggering, don't you think? Or where you go on to imply that the women who make these accusations are famewhores who just want to ruin lives.

Oh, and before you continue with the 'not to sound sexist' stuff, but I've personally had false accusations of sexual harassment against me. And I've also had nearly every female friend tell me at some point that they were sexually harassed, some assaulted, and they said NOTHING. Because it was someone close to them, because they didn't want to make waves, or they wanted to put it behind them, or they were just afraid of being slurred by people all too happy to take the man's side.

So between the two, in MY opinion the potential for false rape accusations is the lesser evil to the much greater evil of assuming the victim is actually a manipulative psychopath straight out of the Sith Academy. As well, the incidental evil of normalizing rape as 'hypersensitivity'. This is rape culture. Get a good long look at it.
The trouble is, we are increasingly becoming a society of extremes. As governments shift to a more progressive stance, people are always going to push back against an erosion of rights (real or perceived).

The trick, is finding when a change is a reasonable response to a problem, and when it is just pandering to ideological movements like Me Too and We Believe.

Take Patrick Brown for example. Right before the last Ontario election, a couple women come out with sexual assault allegations. They were not reported to the police, no investigation was ever launched, no evidence was ever submitted. They just found sympathetic reporters at CTV. Within weeks flaws were found in their accusations (one being caught in an outright lie) however Brown had already been ousted as the PC party leader. Since then, Brown has presented alibis and positive polygraph results (yes i know it's not 100% conclusive) and no police service found any credible reason to launch an investigation. This sets a dangerous precedent and constitutes a fairly serious threat to our democracy. While that election was a foregone conclusion at that point, imagine if these kinds of allegations surfaced a few weeks from now against Scheer or Trudeau?

Or how about the case of Jian Gomeshi? While no one doubts the guy was a total creep, but his accusers blatantly committed perjury in their testimony (specifically, they said they never knew each other yet the defense got a hold of text messages between them that showed them colluding on how to get him charged and convicted, working out details of their testimonies etc.). The women of course, were never charged. The government's response was the change the law so that in sexual assault cases, the accuser can review all evidence by the defense before it is submitted, ensuring they can tailor their testimony to avoid contradictions (a law that has since been ruled as unconstitutional).

So this presents a problem. Fundamental to our judicial system is innocent until proven guilty. This has been eroded in recent years. Even though it might be a tiny fraction of women who would abuse the system, they clearly do exist. There has also been no consequences for those who do abuse the system, so the problem is only going to get worse.


The solution as i see it to make no assumptions of anybody (easier said than done I know). In these cases (like any serious crime), the accuser should be taken very seriously, but without any assumptions or prejudice. And if it turns out that the accuser is in fact lying and abusing the system, they should be held accountable. Unfortunately, we are failing quite miserably on both of those points, and I'm not seeing any progress on actually solving the problem. Just increasingly extreme ideology.
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Rolodome
09.03.2019 , 08:29 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by MadDutchman View Post
The trouble is, we are increasingly becoming a society of extremes. As governments shift to a more progressive stance, people are always going to push back against an erosion of rights (real or perceived).

The trick, is finding when a change is a reasonable response to a problem, and when it is just pandering to ideological movements like Me Too and We Believe.

Take Patrick Brown for example. Right before the last Ontario election, a couple women come out with sexual assault allegations. They were not reported to the police, no investigation was ever launched, no evidence was ever submitted. They just found sympathetic reporters at CTV. Within weeks flaws were found in their accusations (one being caught in an outright lie) however Brown had already been ousted as the PC party leader. Since then, Brown has presented alibis and positive polygraph results (yes i know it's not 100% conclusive) and no police service found any credible reason to launch an investigation. This sets a dangerous precedent and constitutes a fairly serious threat to our democracy. While that election was a foregone conclusion at that point, imagine if these kinds of allegations surfaced a few weeks from now against Scheer or Trudeau?

Or how about the case of Jian Gomeshi? While no one doubts the guy was a total creep, but his accusers blatantly committed perjury in their testimony (specifically, they said they never knew each other yet the defense got a hold of text messages between them that showed them colluding on how to get him charged and convicted, working out details of their testimonies etc.). The women of course, were never charged. The government's response was the change the law so that in sexual assault cases, the accuser can review all evidence by the defense before it is submitted, ensuring they can tailor their testimony to avoid contradictions (a law that has since been ruled as unconstitutional).

So this presents a problem. Fundamental to our judicial system is innocent until proven guilty. This has been eroded in recent years. Even though it might be a tiny fraction of women who would abuse the system, they clearly do exist. There has also been no consequences for those who do abuse the system, so the problem is only going to get worse.


The solution as i see it to make no assumptions of anybody (easier said than done I know). In these cases (like any serious crime), the accuser should be taken very seriously, but without any assumptions or prejudice. And if it turns out that the accuser is in fact lying and abusing the system, they should be held accountable. Unfortunately, we are failing quite miserably on both of those points, and I'm not seeing any progress on actually solving the problem. Just increasingly extreme ideology.
I agree it's complicated. Though I'd say there's a difference between allegations coming out against figures in entertainment and allegations coming out against politicians. In the latter case, peoples' motivations are pretty much always scrutinized, whether they're accusing someone of sexual misconduct or buying a cupcake for a kid. In the former case, there's often very little to gain and very little reason to lie, with an enormous amount to lose*. Maybe you can win a lawsuit and get some money, I guess? (If you can somehow pull that off, without getting buried under legal fees.) But you'll also get half the internet hating your guts with a fiery passion, these days, simply for existing in some kind of opposition to a celebrity's continued success.

So people who don't have the power have a lot to lose in these situations and I think it's easier to take it at face value when the actions are levied at a public figure in entertainment. Sure, they can be false and damage can be done, but damage can also be done to the person accusing.

Personally, I hesitate to agree that "innocent until proven guilty" has been eroded. I think the justice system in the US, in particular (I know little about other nations, so can't speak to them) has long favored the rich and powerful and is in need of reform. I'm not sure that "innocent until proven guilty" has really been intact all that thoroughly, in general, other than on paper. Certainly the rich have the resources to hire lawyers and defend themselves to the extent that they can generally enforce "innocent until proven guilty" in a court of law through sheer force of the power of money. But I'm not so sure it's been the case for people who are, for example, poor and are dealing with whatever meager level of public defender the state or county's resources can afford to give them.

I think part of what we're seeing is people looking at a justice system that does a terrible job of handling many sexual misconduct charges (reports ignored or dismissed, evidence ignored or dismissed, etc., before it even reaches a court level) and saying... well if they won't do something about it, then we will. Which is obviously not a good way to administer justice, but until serious reform happens, bottled up issues are probably going to continue leaking out via public opinion. And I do think that presents a danger to our politics. If someone has a serious accusation to levy against a politician, they should (ideally) be able to report it in private to a neutral body, have it handled swiftly and fairly to root out corruption, and have political processes in place to boot the person out if necessary, if the accusations find they are unfit for office. But that's all "ideally." Forming any kind of neutrality in political processes is, well... let's just say, don't use my country as the example to build off of. :P
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