I'm not sure there is a short recap of this thread at this point. Suffice it to say there have been compelling arguments from both sides in some cases, but mostly trolling about solo queuers being trash and premade players being trash who hide behind better friends.

 

I'd say the overall productivity is fairly low considering the length of the thread.

I think what I take from the thousand posts in this thread is that premade players would be fine with split queues IF the queue times do not change OR they implement cross server queues (yeah right:rolleyes:) AND they can guarantee that a 3 man group will not sit in queue limbo forever waiting for another 3 man and 2 man group to join.

Yep you will never hear "that was a good team" or "that player is good I should work on improving my play style". It will always be "pfft we lost because we obviously faced a premade" or "If you didn't have BiS WH gear and used it as a crutch I would have beaten you".

not really true. when its premade vs premade, you hear, "that was a good team", more than your hear people boohooing.

you can also flip it around, min/maxed premades on voice steamrolling over undergeared pugs dont usually say, "we only won because they had no chance". its pretty much, "omg!!! we rule!! we are so pro!!!! look at that score!!! 600-0!!! we are pvp gods!!!". lol.

I think what I take from the thousand posts in this thread is that premade players would be fine with split queues IF the queue times do not change OR they implement cross server queues (yeah right:rolleyes:) AND they can guarantee that a 3 man group will not sit in queue limbo forever waiting for another 3 man and 2 man group to join.

lol. maybe a few. but most like the ego boost from wrecking undergeared pugs. plus, they like to finish daily weekly quests fast vs pugs.

Yeah, you're right about this, legacy gear saved all of my lvl 50 alts that didn't have single piece of BM or WH piece. Actually this happens with plenty of people who don't bother to pvp until they're lvl 50.

 

And that pretty much sums this whole thread: the complain about the gear gap and the premades with full gear set.

 

Like many said before, patch 1.6 will hopefully fix this. Though if you still haven't saved a single warzone comm by the time they reach lvl 50, the gear problem will only get worse in 1.6.

IDK they are not getting rid of the Recruit gear are they. Maybe they are going to buff it to BM level. Makes the most sense...

lol. maybe a few. but most like the ego boost from wrecking undergeared pugs. plus, they like to finish daily weekly quests fast vs pugs.

And you are some kind of authority on this because you have inside information? or practice this yourself and assume if you are like that most are? Would really like some insight on this way of thinking. And I'm in no way saying there is not people like this because I've been seeing it in games ever since I starting playing way back when.

My personal opinion is that the real problem is how BW lacked the foresight and listened to all the "loss of community" garbage that was all over the forms since forums were created. Yes I'm talking cross servers ques with fine tuned match making system..... We will never know why they chose not to at least have the back bone in place for later development, I just don't buy they thought PvP would be just a little side thing and would never need that since if I knew it would be a problem a professional in that field should have known. And hey all the other big kids on the block figured that out before SWTOR had one line of code written for it.

But back on topic, I can only speak from my experience on the server I am on ( The Shadowlands) I have yet to see one comment from a premade that beat us badly saying that they rock or we sucked...not once. And until the first merger the imp side had our number big time. Me and a RL friend slugged thru it and slowly started building a friends list, I bought a Vent server for a whole 10 bucks a month and by the time the merger came we had some regulars from different guilds that would join us. We still got beat a lot by (Woops guild) but we were still learning each others classes and what min/maxing was.

Fast forward to today after some guild merges and what not we have a decent pool of players in one guild and some good friends that play PvP a lot that also join us. A typical night we will have about 3-4 4mans going in regulars with people coming and going (some people can only play a few rounds each nite) and it's just casual game play.

Do we play to win? sure, we also play to gain comms because on average half of players are not very geared yet. And there are many good Imp premades as well and we run into them all the time (far from a Pug vs premade thing here)

Last night we had a bigger amount than normal on wanting to play so we formed 2 ranked groups balanced out. had a few killer games and then we got a few games against guild ID(forget full name) which is one of the best if not the best on the server and had some very tough games and I think we may of even won one (can't remember if it was them or not on one of the wins) But had a blast and felt good since not that long ago they were 3 capping us half the time. But a lot of the time the effort needed to form teams and replacing members makes it not worth the effort due to the amount of time 7 to 15 other have to wait each time some one leaves.

So when people just trash premades as some horrible, evil or scared players they are only making themselves look silly in most cases. And they are focusing their hate in the wrong direction, BW is at fault for the current state of things and you should not fault people for playing within rule set of the game (even the evil ones).

Not to mention the bad pre-mades... or the good pre-mades that are on their team. Logic like that seems to go ignored in this thread though. Instead of controlling the situation and grouping up they'd rather whine that they aren't winning enough and ignore the fact that they aren't using the tools at hand to improve their chances of winning.

 

Then there's the mythical 8 man pre-made in regular war zones... which I see less than 5% of the war zones I'm in.. and that's being generous.

 

The way I see it... you win some... you lose some.

 

The way they see it... you win some... and when you lose some create rage threads on forums and cry for changes.

No, its bad because. I either get roflstomped, or i am roflstomping when a premade ends up in my team. In the second case its no challenge at all, and not fun

No, its bad because. I either get roflstomped, or i am roflstomping when a premade ends up in my team. In the second case its no challenge at all, and not fun

Maybe I'm a control freak... but I prefer of putting the odds in my favor by being that pre-made.

We either ROFLstomp, which is OK. Get the weekly done quick and winning is fun.

OR

We have a competitive, challenging game... which is fun too.

The remaining 4 player or w/e it is on our team would have to be pretty bad for us to get roflstomped... so personally, because I use the system as it's intended I don't have the frustration of getting roflstomped. See how that works?

Instead of trying to change the system.... why not just change YOUR system?

Why wouldn't I stack it in my favor? It seems silly not to. You don't get brownie points for pugging nor is it a good idea to play solo in any multi-player game. Groups and team work will always win.

Yea I wasted 20 min writing a explanation of the average evil pugs reasoning a few posts above and I bet I do not get one response on it lol

Sad but true... I've noticed most of my well thought out posts simply get bypassed and they move onto whatever else they find and can manage to twist in their favor.

Sad but true... I've noticed most of my well thought out posts simply get bypassed and they move onto whatever else they find and can manage to twist in their favor.

"I prefer of putting the odds in my favor by being that pre-made."

"We either ROFLstomp, which is OK. Get the weekly done quick and winning is fun."

"Why wouldn't I stack it in my favor? It seems silly not to."

dont need giant walls of text. that is all your need right there. instead, many of you write these mini-novels trying to spin the fact that you want to win, finish quests fast, stack odds in your favor and so on. just be honest, running premades in normals has has very little to do with wanting competition. if you wanted competition then you would be in rateds all the time( hard to do i know because so few want competition ) or you would be in favor of premade teams vs premade teams instead of the current premade vs random pugs.

what is even worse is when some( maybe not you ) actually try to say its just "bads" complaining that they are "bad". look, when i que with a group and demolish a bunch of random undergear pugs, that doesnt mean im "good" at pvp or they are "bad" at pvp.

anyway, this whole argument will be moot eventually. 1.6 might help a little i guess. but new matchmaking system they mentioned will cut down on min/maxed premades from getting put in WZs with helpless low geared pugs. i imagine it will also put groups vs groups much more than it does now as well.

"I prefer of putting the odds in my favor by being that pre-made."

 

"We either ROFLstomp, which is OK. Get the weekly done quick and winning is fun."

 

"Why wouldn't I stack it in my favor? It seems silly not to."

 

 

dont need giant walls of text. that is all your need right there. instead, many of you write these mini-novels trying to spin the fact that you want to win, finish quests fast, stack odds in your favor and so on. just be honest, running premades in normals has has very little to do with wanting competition. if you wanted competition then you would be in rateds all the time( hard to do i know because so few want competition ) or you would be in favor of premade teams vs premade teams instead of the current premade vs random pugs.

 

what is even worse is when some( maybe not you ) actually try to say its just "bads" complaining that they are "bad". look, when i que with a group and demolish a bunch of random undergear pugs, that doesnt mean im "good" at pvp or they are "bad" at pvp.

 

anyway, this whole argument will be moot eventually. 1.6 might help a little i guess. but new matchmaking system they mentioned will cut down on min/maxed premades from getting put in WZs with helpless low geared pugs. i imagine it will also put groups vs groups much more than it does now as well.

My wall of text I last wrote had not mentioned wanting competition once Nor did I blame or name call others. It was a honest post about what the average Premade is made of to try and dissolve the hate and generalization use about us.

and of course we have to explain in walls off text so as not get trolled because it was not explained to cover every angle that could be construed the wrong way.

and of course we have to explain in walls off text so as not get trolled because it was not explained to cover every angle that could be construed the wrong way.

This.... so much of this...

My wall of text I last wrote had not mentioned wanting competition once Nor did I blame or name call others. It was a honest post about what the average Premade is made of to try and dissolve the hate and generalization use about us.

 

and of course we have to explain in walls off text so as not get trolled because it was not explained to cover every angle that could be construed the wrong way.

why are you making it an "us" vs "them" thing? most people que solo sometimes and with groups other times. if im grouped i want to face evenly match groups in WZ, not random pugs.

also, when people make threads like this they are not really talking about EVERYONE who groups for WZs. there is a big dif between 4 friends grouping up to que and a PVP guild ( on voice ) all min/maxed picking the right 4 to group and then having the other 4 or more queing solo so they end up with 6 in the WZ instead of just 4. most of the complaints are about the latter.

really dont understand how you or some of the others in this thread are so against matching groups vs groups and pugs vs pugs... as well as matching top gear to top gear and low gear with low gear. because anyone who wants groups vs pugs doesnt really want competition. same as people who want min/maxed top gear vs recruit gear doesnt really want competition.

Maybe I'm a control freak... but I prefer of putting the odds in my favor by being that pre-made.

 

We either ROFLstomp, which is OK. Get the weekly done quick and winning is fun.

 

OR

 

We have a competitive, challenging game... which is fun too.

 

The remaining 4 player or w/e it is on our team would have to be pretty bad for us to get roflstomped... so personally, because I use the system as it's intended I don't have the frustration of getting roflstomped. See how that works?

 

Instead of trying to change the system.... why not just change YOUR system?

 

Why wouldn't I stack it in my favor? It seems silly not to. You don't get brownie points for pugging nor is it a good idea to play solo in any multi-player game. Groups and team work will always win.

Yeah, you nailed down the problem pretty well. In either case, one side is too often stomping the other. There are some great, close matches, too, no doubt, but sadly I find those rare. Too often one team is completely dominating the other and that is what we should do something about.

Also, I don't think any of us actually know "how the system is intended to work". There is no "We want you to queue up as a group." or "We want you to play solo." warning next to the PvP button. It's not group versus group, not solo versus solo, it's player versus player, where both group versus group and solo versus solo should be a viable option with a fair chance of winning for both. Not the predetermined matches we get and all the roflstomping "fun."

I wonder if the developers actually took a look at how Guild Wars 1 (and not 2!) handled this problem because it was superb. If you wanted to play solo, you had Random Arenas, where you got a team based on an RNG number. If you wanted to play as a team, you had Team Arenas, where you could fight as a predesigned, carefully balanced, highly skilled team. Not this "hey let's throw 8 random guys together and have them fight against No.1 premade team on the server" bull*****. And no one ever complained about pug vs premade problem.

I'm not against common sense, but as long as you have a "queue solo" option it should be just as viable a means to win as the "queue group" one. Otherwise if it's pointless to queue anyway as solo because you inevitably end up losing horribly to premades, why even include it in the first place? To provide fresh meat for the premades to slaughter? No that doesn't make sense. Giving someone an option that turns out isn't really an option after all?

I'm sorry but I really think that the system is inherently flawed. I cannot name any single sport that would allow random amateurs compete against the national champion team (maybe you can, I can't).

Man this thread just keeps going. Over the weekend I teamed with a few people for premades "I know I am the Devil or as I call myself Little Cthulu". In the next matches we were matched with another premade in fact the same premade. Is is perfect? No but I do think it is getting better and they are working on it. Plus really the average premade is not the problem you are really upset about. I am part of the average premade and no one is going to call me a great player "most won't call me a good player really :rolleyes:" we do not stomp people we fight like crazy for every win as I only team with friends "Usually in weird specs because we would rather play what we want instead of what is best for winning i.e. dps sorcerer, dps merc some of them in recruit".

The ones you are talking about that stomp people are the best players on the server and I have said it before they have gear "yes they are min/max and they hit hard" they have team speak "oh the horror" but most importantly they have team tactics that work. They focus on one person and burn them down then another, how many times do you see the entire team pick a different person to attack? Totally counterproductive to the entire exercise. So what it boils down to is that these mutant freaks with lightning reflexes team with other mutant freaks like the veritable Brotherhood of Evil Mutants slaughtering everything in there path. And you know what they win and if they are a great guild they don't talk trash doing it because they don't have to, there actions have spoken saying simply "We Are The Best". Pyramid of ability exists in nature and mankind as in real life so in games. I don't like it when I get killed 30 times in a match and I especially don't like when it happens over and over but I do realize that it is not the system that does it, it is just that they are better however they got there.

why are you making it an "us" vs "them" thing? most people que solo sometimes and with groups other times. if im grouped i want to face evenly match groups in WZ, not random pugs.

 

Were did I exactly make the pug vs premade split/separation? Were did I state that I want to go against pug when I'm grouped? I pug as well big deal, it's about the people that say all or "most" premades are some kind of low life. but since your not referring directly to anything I wrote I guess You did not read it are just assuming I'm one of "them" and type away.

 

also, when people make threads like this they are not really talking about EVERYONE who groups for WZs. there is a big dif between 4 friends grouping up to que and a PVP guild ( on voice ) all min/maxed picking the right 4 to group and then having the other 4 or more queing solo so they end up with 6 in the WZ instead of just 4. most of the complaints are about the latter.

 

The English language is a beautiful thing, all it takes is to use words like "some" that gives the distinction of what they mean. Just like 2+2=4 A statement like "Premades don't do ranked because they are scared to lose, and like the easy mode" = All not some, not many, not a select few....... But of course your assuming you know what people mean, just like you probably know that what I wrote with out reading it...........

 

really dont understand how you or some of the others in this thread are so against matching groups vs groups and pugs vs pugs... as well as matching top gear to top gear and low gear with low gear. because anyone who wants groups vs pugs doesnt really want competition. same as people who want min/maxed top gear vs recruit gear doesnt really want competition.

 

Again lack of reading or translating my post into what you felt I meant again. I will refrain from the long explanation needed to answer that and hope you understand the short version,

 

I'm not against matching that way, I'm against splitting the que up to do it. No other game even does that, games that have it right use cross server with a good algorithm to make that happen when ever possible and in a timely matter.

But I'm out of time for now, If you wish the long version let me know and I'll spend my lunch time tomorow just for U;)

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But I'm out of time for now, If you wish the long version let me know and I'll spend my lunch time tomorow just for U;)

lol.

common sense is a beautiful thing as well. i dont know about you, but when someone makes a thread about premades ruining WZs, the first thing that comes into my mind isnt... "oh, that guy must be talking about 4 friends in recruit gear queing together!! how dare he!!! time for me to school him that all premades are not equal".

whats the problem with splitting up the ques? complex match making systems are nice but they are never perfect and always seem to be exploitable. splitting ques into solo and groups is simple and harder to exploit and something BW could implemet next week. having seperate solo/group ques plus a match making system is even better.

why against solo only and group only WZs? because you are worried most people will solo que? personally, i would rather have a longer que when grouped and end up in more competetive WZs than have shorter ques where my side stomps the others side 4/5 times. same thing for the times i just que solo.

I'm not against common sense, but as long as you have a "queue solo" option it should be just as viable a means to win as the "queue group" one. Otherwise if it's pointless to queue anyway as solo because you inevitably end up losing horribly to premades, why even include it in the first place? To provide fresh meat for the premades to slaughter? No that doesn't make sense. Giving someone an option that turns out isn't really an option after all?

No, it's a viable option to -play.-

The solo function provides a vital service. Those who don't have friends on can still play. Those who don't have a spot in the guild at the moment can still play. Those that just want a quick match or are feeling anti-social today can play. That is all the solo queue option is designed to do... allow people to -play- when (or if they don't want a group) they have no group.

Solo also servers for filling and backfilling.

Your character has the option to get naked, does it not? Yet do you believe playing without armor should be as viable to win as someone wearing their gear?

The game allows you to choose how you apply your talent points, but if you choose a 11/20/10 (fyi, a build that is just terrible) should it be as viable to win as the standard 31//10 builds?

The problem I feel people have, is the false assumption solo-centric is a viable playstyle (for winning), or that it should be. It isn't, it's the complete opposite of a "multiplayer" game. The option exists to not exclude the player who doesn't have a group, not because it should be a viable winning strategy.

tried really hard not to post any replies in this thread anymore, but I made the first mistake of continuing to read and couldn't resist this OT comment: this also validates the argument for taking two teams into rated and just forfeiting if you don't get the team you want to face. you don't get brownie points for getting spawn camped. drop Q. eat a loss on your record. re-Q. move on. other team gets stuck in empty wz? yeah. that sucks. enjoy they still get their victory with the maximum speed (3-cap, 6 goals, fastest possible vstar). my undergeared team being there isn't going to change that outcome (or speed it up). why wouldn't I just forfeit and move on? there's no chance of victory or even a competitive match. there is no honor in pvp. you stick to your own codes, good for you. don't expect that others will too. they will not. hardest lesson I had to learn.

One is an abuse of the system,

One is working within the system.

Hopefully you can figure out which one.

(=P and if you didn't see it, I apologize for my rudeness in our last exchange.)

 

whats the problem with splitting up the ques? complex match making systems are nice but they are never perfect and always seem to be exploitable. splitting ques into solo and groups is simple and harder to exploit and something BW could implemet next week. having seperate solo/group ques plus a match making system is even better.

^_^ Hi there. Lemme just put out a little list.

1. No filling for partial premades if there isn't a solo pool to draw from.

2. No backfilling for groups.

3. Highest potential for players unable to play. (If you need 16, then 15 solo and 15 (or 12 more likely) group players (total 30) can be sitting around indefinitely.

4. They do not target root problems:

>a. Gear gap

>b. Skill difference

>c. Faction Imbalance

>d. Class Imbalance/Composition.

5. Possibility to raise queue times.

The following portion of the list are more moral (for lack of a better word) issues:

6. Discourages Community building.

7. Discourages players from improving,

8. Rewards mediocrity.

Now, I'm not saying the last 3 points do not happen in the current system, but they would be better addressed in a matchmaking system (with cross server pools) than they would in split queue system (even with cross server.)

One is an abuse of the system,

 

One is working within the system.

 

Hopefully you can figure out which one.

 

(=P and if you didn't see it, I apologize for my rudeness in our last exchange.)

they're both playing within the system. the system allows you to decline a queue and take a loss. just because you don't like something doesn't make it "illegal" or against the rules. you don't like it. that's nice. I do. that's nice too. talk all you want about how wrong it is and how it should be changed. it is what it is. and while it is within the rules, it will be...within the rules. that's why it's called "within the rules" deal with it.

Problem here and politics is that no one looks at the issue from the other's point of view. Why doesn't Bioware allow solo q's for ranked Warzones? They don't because they felt that pug groups would get steam rolled by good premades, which is exactly what is going on now in non-ranked warzones. However, it is not the premades fault per say:

1- A decent premade (pvp guild) will be composed of players that know how to play the game-they know the objectives and the strategies. Many pug players are just trying pvp for the first time as can be seen by the occasional sub lvl50 pve gear.

2- Members in a decent premade will be well geared, especially if they play ranked warzone- since gearing up to War Hero is actually faster in ranked games. ( I puged a ranked warzone once- the other team reached the final objective in the voistar with 3 minutes to spare and they stopped us at the first door- I ended up with ~50 ranked warzone comms) a similar loss in a regular warzone would net me around 50 regular warzone comms (with the 3:1 conversion I would rather get beat bad in a ranked than equally bad in a non-ranked).

3- Even if the decent premades did NOT have a voip (which in imo, violates biowares policy on using third party software for an edge in the game) , based on 1 and 2 above they will still steam roll a pug team made up of one or two War Hero's with a bunch of new/casual pvp players.

Not every premade is good, and not every pug is bad and needs to L2P. Late at night I happen to join a pug group that was made up entirely of war hero's and we beat a team made up of two 4 man premades from decent->good pvp guilds.

However, most of the time the good pugs are at a disadvantage because they are grouped with less skilled players. I have seen groups of two from pvp guild dropping because they did not land with their other group of 2 or 4. Some people like to stomp weaker people and pretending it doesn't happen is just naive (there is even a word for it "Bully"). I see teasing on the pvp chat all the time.

Solution: Allow the good pugs (based on gear or valor) to q- for ranked warzones. This way the new and casuals (with lvl 47 greens) know not to go into ranked unless they want a royal stomping, and the good pugs that for whatever reason don't want to join a pvp guild can play with equally skilled and geared players against premades or other equally geared pugs. Those that have premades will have shorter q-times and will actually get some competition. Then there would be no excuse for those that are really just Bully's preying on raw recruits to boost their egos.

Harbinger

Sharpshooter: Valor 77

Shield Tech Powertech: Valor 56

^_^ Hi there. Lemme just put out a little list.

 

1. No filling for partial premades if there isn't a solo pool to draw from.

2. No backfilling for groups.

3. Highest potential for players unable to play. (If you need 16, then 15 solo and 15 (or 12 more likely) group players (total 30) can be sitting around indefinitely.

4. They do not target root problems:

>a. Gear gap

>b. Skill difference

>c. Faction Imbalance

>d. Class Imbalance/Composition.

5. Possibility to raise queue times.

 

The following portion of the list are more moral (for lack of a better word) issues:

 

6. Discourages Community building.

7. Discourages players from improving,

8. Rewards mediocrity.

 

Now, I'm not saying the last 3 points do not happen in the current system, but they would be better addressed in a matchmaking system (with cross server pools) than they would in split queue system (even with cross server.)

fair point about backfilling.

#4 has nothing to do with solo vs group ques. those are just the normal problems/issues that happen in pretty much every MMO that has PVP.

#5 yes, group ques would be a bit longer. but as i said, i would rather have a little longer wait if it means more competetive WZs.

#6 the current system isnt building much of a community. just look at this thread and threads like it. also, plenty of people who like to PVP but are not in PVP guilds.

#7 players dont improve when they get steamrolled over and over by "pro" premades in normals. they just die, respawn, die, respawn, die...

#8 kind of an elitist point of view. this is a game and dif people play for dif reasons. what is fun for me might not be whats fun for someone else. nothing wrong with people who may only want some casual none organized PVP that comes with pug vs pug. WZs shouldnt be reserved only for the super competetive players. and really shouldnt be about, "either become great and form a great team or get streamrolled constantly."

choice is better than no choice. if i want to play group vs group WZs i should have that option. if someone else wants to play pug vs pug WZs, they should have that option as well.

they're both playing within the system. the system allows you to decline a queue and take a loss. just because you don't like something doesn't make it "illegal" or against the rules. you don't like it. that's nice. I do. that's nice too. talk all you want about how wrong it is and how it should be changed. it is what it is. and while it is within the rules, it will be...within the rules. that's why it's called "within the rules" deal with it.

System is designed:

8 people on queue up.

The next 8 people queue.

The warzone begins, team 1 fighting team 2.

Exploit:

8 people queue up.

Next 8 people queue up with a third 8 man.

Team 2 asks Team 3 if they got a pop.

Team 3 says no.

Team 2 ignores the pop and requeue's.

Team 2 asks if Team 3 got a pop.

Team 3 says yes.

Both teams take it.

It is the intent that makes it an exploit. There are legitmate reasons to decline a pop (team actually wasn't ready, team decided it wants to do an Op instead... team forgot it was queue'd for ranked.) Declining the pop not to fight against Team 1 is an exploit then.

Foxy, you can try to excuse the behavior any way you like, but it is an abuse of the system. It is just as much an abuse as trying to get 8 players in a normal wz... and do you not find that distasteful?

Uglymrj,

You have made several comments about why not stack the odds in your favor.

I am going to assume that you are a good player who would do well in higher skillcap mmos on any class.

Assuming this is the case then the answer to those responses would be fun! It is boring as hell to easily roll weaker opponents when you know you can have a challenge with stronger opponents. That is why I want premade matching or even solo q if they do cross server.

This is not real life. In real life I have taken whatever route necessary to get ahead. I didn't go to a great school and get great grades and do great research and get a great job and change when my position felt stagnant/etc. because it was fun. I did it because that is what you need to do to be comfortable in life.

However, this is a game. This is for fun. Getting a few more comms isn't fun. You don't need a few more comms to retire early (you shouldn't want to retire from a game early anyway lol). Good players usually play whatever they do for challenge and fun. The current system provides zero challenge most of the time to good premaders. That is the main reason I mainly pug and will continue to do so until they add premade matching. That is the main reason I want a solo q option or premade matching. Also, a secondary, and obvious reason is that I want the game to thrive because I want to keep playing it and for it to have a lot of development money.

fair point about backfilling.

 

#4 has nothing to do with solo vs group ques. those are just the normal problems/issues that happen in pretty much every MMO that has PVP.

 

#5 yes, group ques would be a bit longer. but as i said, i would rather have a little longer wait if it means more competetive WZs.

 

#6 the current system isnt building much of a community. just look at this thread and threads like it. also, plenty of people who like to PVP but are not in PVP guilds.

 

#7 players dont improve when they get steamrolled over and over by "pro" premades in normals. they just die, respawn, die, respawn, die...

 

#8 kind of an elitist point of view. this is a game and dif people play for dif reasons. what is fun for me might not be whats fun for someone else. nothing wrong with people who may only want some casual none organized PVP that comes with pug vs pug. WZs shouldnt be reserved only for the super competetive players. and really shouldnt be about, "either become great and form a great team or get streamrolled constantly."

 

choice is better than no choice. if i want to play group vs group WZs i should have that option. if someone else wants to play pug vs pug WZs, they should have that option as well.

Allow me to clarify:

4. I meant that split queue doesn't address root issues, where as matchmaking on a criteria would, or would better address them. If matchmaking is based on gear or highest gear average, it eliminates gear issues, if it's off some personal win/lose ratio, then it should help match skill levels, etc...

5. I'm not sure how many would agree, but I respect your opinion.

For points 6-8, I believe I mentioned that the current system doesn't offer those either. My argument isn't for the continuation of the current system, it's against the split queue idea in favor of the matchmaking idea.

6: Agreed, current system doesn't help this much, though it does prompt people to group in hopes of not being stomped.

7. They will not improve then, if getting stomped by a PuG on the "better geared" side. Matchmaking would balance this as much as possible, putting gradually more challenging opponents based on a criteria, while solo-only bracket has no safeguards against this.

8. I do tend to come off as elitist, but we are talking about competition and rewards. A PuG only bracket is by default, less competitive than a Premade only bracket (and yes, in the current system when it's a double premade vs. a full pug, it's even less competitive than PuG vs. PuG.) If the goal is to make a casual "option" than that option shouldn't have a reward, because all they really want (imo) is a pick up game. No one advocating split queue's has agreed to a no reward (or less reward) bracket that I'm aware of.