Vote:

It is needed - 128 votes - 56.14%

It is not needed - 100 votes - 43.86%

To clear up some confusion - The Removal of Expertise would require changes to the current system.

If you like the current system, the way things are currently implemented, the way things are currently working, and how Expertise fits into all of it, then your vote would be "It is needed".

If you do not like the current system and would like to see a different system that has Expertise removed from it, then your vote would be "It is not needed".

Thank you.

Start with one of the above choices in your post, I'll keep tally of the votes. Underneath your vote add why you feel the way you feel, please be as in depth as possible, avoid Flaming, and just place your point-of-view as to your vote. Help me out by not voting more than once, because that would only slow down the tally process.

I'll start this off with my response.

It is not needed.

Players forget that the only reason WoW implemented a PvP stat was because they were unable to properly balance classes from PvE to PvP, what made them survivable in PvE made them OP in PvP so Resilience was added so WoW had the ability to adjust the classes accordingly in PvP.

SWTOR did not have that flaw, the classes were pretty well balanced right out of the gate. There is no need for Expertise except for the reason to segregate PvPers from Raiders.

Such segregation is not needed, especially in SWTOR and here's why;

The system in swtor allows players to mix and match armor types to allow them to look how they want to look, and have stats according to their play style. All Raiding versus PvP rewards need to do is allow players a different access to those pools, differently looking gear, different stat'd slot modifications, different set bonuses, different access to legacy stuff, etc.

Having a system that separates Raiders from PvPers is an argument that's been had for a long time. The only problem is the argument is a mute point. Raiders should be able to PvP, and PvPers should be able to raid. Every hard core PvP game on the market does not separate PvE gear from PvP gear, they don't, period, because only the people that don't know any better think it's a good idea.

Here's a scenario;

Player Tim wants to Raid, it's what he likes to do, so he spends his time raiding and is rewarded for his choice of end game content.

Player Jill wants to PvP, it's what she likes to do, so she spends her time PvPing and is rewarded for her choice of end game content.

Player Tim decides he's going to give PvP a crack, a raid was canceled and he's bored, so he joins a game. He knows very little about what to do because he doesn't PvP, so his skill is totally lacking in how to deal with live players instead of timer mechanic mobs. He meets Jill on the PvP field and they battle it out. Jill wins because she knows what she is doing because this is where she spends most of her time, and her gear is modded to be more Player vs Player oriented. What Tim walks away with is a defeat, but not because he got rolled do to having no PvP gear, the gear was pretty even minus the mods done to accommodate Jill's play style in PvP. So Tim isn't utterly behind the game because he doesn't have PvP gear, he's behind the game because he lacks the skill from devoting his time to Raiding. But his Raiding gear isn't what throws him behind the eight ball, the gear is so close to equal, it's a mute point, so it comes down to player skill... you know, what PvP should be about.

Jill decides to take a break from PvPing and gets invited to Raid. Jill is a good player, but has no idea what to do in the Raid, everything has to stop and be explained to her, she fumbles a few times and dies removing her effectiveness in the Raid, and her gear is modded more for survivablilty, or burst dps, or whatever, but not aimed at sustained several minute fights.

If Jill wants to be better at Raiding, she's going to need to build up a new set of mods for her gear, probably using a different set of gear so she doesn't have to spend credits switching mods back and forth, and she's going to have to Raid more often to get to that point where she is an ace in the hole.

If Tim wants to be better at PvP, he's going to need to build up a new set of mods for his gear, probably using a different set of gear so he doesn't have to spend credits switching mods back and forth, and he's going to have to PvP more often to get to that point where he is an ace in the hole.

Jill knows how to mod her Equipment to be a better asset to PvP. Tim knows how to mod his Equipment to be a better asset to his Raids. People that want to do both will undoubtedly have two totally different sets of Equipment.

But that's it. There is no reason a Raider can't enjoy a once in a while game of PvP and not be so gear gimped it's ridiculous. There's also no reason a PvPer can't enjoy a once in a while Raid and not be so gear gimped it's ridiculous. There's just no reason to have that separation.

At most, AT MOST, I could see the use of being able to add set bonuses to Equipment, and certain Set Bonuses add distinct Bonuses when used against non-players for Raiding; and other Set Bonuses add distinct Bonuses when used against other players. At most the line could be drawn with very simple and minor changes like that.

The game should be about what you like to do, and what you like to do should allow you participate in End Game. If you like to Raid over PvP, that shouldn't force you into doing a bunch of PvP just to not get rolled for lack of not having Expertise PvP gear. You should get rolled because you don't really know what you are doing because you prefer to Raid. Things like Expertise FORCE players into grinding in other areas they may or may not enjoy, and FORCING players grind in an area they may not enjoy is wrong. If they enjoy it once in awhile, cool, but making them grind it for hours and hours so when they do join those times they want to play they don't get utterly destroyed for not having the proper gear.... that is the wrong way to approach it.

Anyone that thinks otherwise, why do you need to hide behind your gear? Why do you need the ability to have gear replace any skill when killing people not equally geared? Can you not hold up if tested? Do you lack the skill required to play the game? Do challenges frighten you? Can you not handle equal geared fights?

Strive to be good at something because that's what you've gotten good at. Don't strive to be good at something because you managed to grind enough time to get gear that allows your lack of skill to not show.

0 - It is needed

I could care less about running operations. I could care less about running Hardmodes. Doing my dailies on Corellia is like pulling teeth.

I will never have the sort of no pvp gear that the carebears on my server will have.

Expertise guanrtees that all their riad gear means nothing in a warzone. Just as my pvp gear won't be enough to let me compete in a nightmare mode, their raid gear won't be enough to let them compete in PVP.

Vote:

 

It is needed - 0

otherwise it's just Top Dungeon Runners creaming casuals.

ie NO PVP at all, gear vs gear

with the easy to reach +1000 exp....more about Play than Gear

however, now we are seeing how Class vs Class balance is off.

I want to clarify something about my post.

Expertise would not be needed if you gave me the best, top tier raiding gear for doing pvp. PVE players don't want that though.

It is needed

To seperate PvP and PvE (This is more of a want and not a need but...)

also:

Expertise also has a side benefit where it allows developers the ability to tweak PVP without affecting PVE.

Example= PVE content is set based of players TimeToKill a specific mob.

If they find the Players TTK another player in PVP is too great they can either adjust damage output or adjust damage mitigation. This would effect PVE also and break content.

By adjusting the percentage that expertise affects damage and mitigation they can correct PVP TTK without breaking PVE.

They can reduce the damage % that expertise does and increase the mitigation % that experise does and it makes it easier to balance PVP. This makes experise a good thing for the PVE'rs.

I want to clarify something about my post.

 

Expertise would not be needed if you gave me the best, top tier raiding gear for doing pvp. PVE players don't want that though.

Take a dive into my really long response, I think you'll find we are on the same page.

It is needed

 

 

To seperate PvP and PvE (This is more of a want and not a need but...)

 

also:

I can't quote ur quote, but yeah, that's the reason WoW implemented Resilience.

Vote:

 

It is needed - 5 votes

It is not needed - 3 votes

 

Start with one of the above choices in your post, I'll keep tally of the votes. Underneath your vote add why you feel the way you feel, please be as in depth as possible, avoid Flaming, and just place your point-of-view as to your vote. Help me out by not voting more than once, because that would only slow down the tally process.

 

I'll start this off with my response.

"Needed" as in current overall game mechanics? Probably. Though I'm of the opinion that creating gear/rewards/stats specifically for PvP was the worst move in MMO history. It effectively ruined true PvP forever. What we have now is PvE against players...

It is needed.

I do not do pve stuff.

The stat allows the admins to change damage and mitigation in pvp without affecting PvE people. So if you want pvp affecting your pve stuff then by all means do away with the stat.

It is needed.

It is not needed.

 

Players forget that the only reason WoW implemented a PvP stat was because they were unable to properly balance classes from PvE to PvP, what made them survivable in PvE made them OP in PvP so Resilience was added so WoW had the ability to adjust the classes accordingly in PvP.

 

SWTOR did not have that flaw, the classes were pretty well balanced right out of the gate. There is no need for Expertise except for the reason to segregate PvPers from Raiders.

....................................................................................................................................................f tested? Do you lack the skill required to play the game? Do challenges frighten you? Can you not handle equal geared fights?

 

Strive to be good at something because that's what you've gotten good at. Don't strive to be good at something because you managed to grind enough time to get gear that allows your lack of skill to not show.

Clipped it for brevity, not at all importance of what was said.

It seems to be an incredibly hard concept to grasp, but all the reasons in the quoted thread are why it DOES need to be implemented.

Raid gear has dominated EVERY PvP element of the games it is implemented in if it is not directly stalemated or trumped by the PvP gear. Some mechanism has always been in place in every single game that has successfully prevented this, whether it has made the PvP gear direct equivalent to PvE gear(Warhammer, Conan), made the gear one and the same,(player crafted in DAOC pre Trials, Guild Wars).

WoW did not integrate resilience because of class balance. It created it because of stat inflation versus hit point inflation in a world in which raid gear did far and away more damage in comparison to player hit point pools and for purposes of allowing their stats to continue to inflate for these raid purposes, they needed to mitigate the damage it caused versus players. That's not a theory, mind you, that's flat out what Blizzard stated the intended purpose was.

Gear based games simply have an uphill climb in PvP because true, challenging, balanced, honest PvP is not gear based at its very core. It is two(or ten, or fifty) players whose outcome is decided by tactics, mechanical understanding, coordination, and reaction.

If everyone in an entire match is in, say, full Battlemaster gear, expertise flat out cancels itself out for the entire match. It's a stat that, in its very existence, causes itself to create full gear parity across the match. Note that this does not instantly create class balance or scaling balance, but the actual gear balance of such a situation is undeniable--every person in the match has the same damage increase/damage decrease/healing increase.

When I say that it is needed, I do it somewhat begrudgingly. I agree that it is a band-aid, and I agree that it is the easy way out. I believe that a second game incorporating what is effectively "resilience" is a cop out and a lazy substitute for actual balance of PvP versus PvE.

The simple truth is that if a game developer chose to create PvE encounters that where challenging and fun, gear inflation would not be the driver for participating in new ones. If stat inflation was balanced across the board(read: we had hit points to effectively counter damage stat inflation), we would not need an individual stat to prevent stat inflation from destroying balance.

We do not have this, and every indication is that it will continue to skew farther toward not having it. As such, the stat is needed.

"Needed" as in current overall game mechanics? Probably. Though I'm of the opinion that creating gear/rewards/stats specifically for PvP was the worst move in MMO history. It effectively ruined true PvP forever. What we have now is PvE against players...

No, Needed as in keep it. Not needed as in re-work the system.

The rest of what you have stated is exactly why I feel it is not needed, we are on the same page.

Needed

The only people who think otherwise are trying to PVP in Raid gear =P

It is needed.

Why wouldnt it be? Every (game) MMO has purposes with mechanics. Somewhere down the line the masses ignore the fact that most MMOs are still Rpgs. Dislike? Then create a paper and pencil rpg and make all your own rules, checks and balances.

It is not needed

The catch-22 here is that about 99% of PvPers will tell you it's supposed to be about skill, not gear. Then why advocate for a special PvP stat on gear that improves performance in warzones? Also, PvPers are concerned that raiders with top end gear will enter warzones and faceroll everyone, while at the same time....that's exactly what higher Expertise does.

The solution is simple: 1 set of gear per class that is PvP only. It can't be equipped outside of a warzone, and there are no special stats. Furthermore, no PvP gear progression except cosmetic ones. Let players get different looking equipment with commendations, but not BETTER stats. Then, and only then, will PvP be about skill.

It is needed.

Clipped it for brevity, not at all importance of what was said.

It seems to be an incredibly hard concept to grasp, but all the reasons in the quoted thread are why it DOES need to be implemented.

Raid gear has dominated EVERY PvP element of the games it is implemented in if it is not directly stalemated or trumped by the PvP gear. Some mechanism has always been in place in every single game that has successfully prevented this, whether it has made the PvP gear direct equivalent to PvE gear(Warhammer, Conan), made the gear one and the same,(player crafted in DAOC pre Trials, Guild Wars).

WoW did not integrate resilience because of class balance. It created it because of stat inflation versus hit point inflation in a world in which raid gear did far and away more damage in comparison to player hit point pools and for purposes of allowing their stats to continue to inflate for these raid purposes, they needed to mitigate the damage it caused versus players. That's not a theory, mind you, that's flat out what Blizzard stated the intended purpose was.

Gear based games simply have an uphill climb in PvP because true, challenging, balanced, honest PvP is not gear based at its very core. It is two(or ten, or fifty) players whose outcome is decided by tactics, mechanical understanding, coordination, and reaction.

If everyone in an entire match is in, say, full Battlemaster gear, expertise flat out cancels itself out for the entire match. It's a stat that, in its very existence, causes itself to create full gear parity across the match. Note that this does not instantly create class balance or scaling balance, but the actual gear balance of such a situation is undeniable--every person in the match has the same damage increase/damage decrease/healing increase.

When I say that it is needed, I do it somewhat begrudgingly. I agree that it is a band-aid, and I agree that it is the easy way out. I believe that a second game incorporating what is effectively "resilience" is a cop out and a lazy substitute for actual balance of PvP versus PvE.

The simple truth is that if a game developer chose to create PvE encounters that where challenging and fun, gear inflation would not be the driver for participating in new ones. If stat inflation was balanced across the board(read: we had hit points to effectively counter damage stat inflation), we would not need an individual stat to prevent stat inflation from destroying balance.

We do not have this, and every indication is that it will continue to skew farther toward not having it. As such, the stat is needed.

Same, a lot of things within your post are the exact reasons why it could be eliminated. If everyone was in BM gear the stat wouldn't matter, so that renders the stat un-needed. Now a player in BM gear is not geared to Raid, so if they feel like doing a Raid once in a while, they don't have the gear to allow them to keep up... why does that have to be an issue? The game has now Forced the Player into Raiding more often in other to keep up, or not raid at all. That's the wrong approach. The choice to do one or the other with similar rewards is what makes games fun for everyone. Forcing players to grind something they don't enjoy just so they can keep up in the one or two times they want to do it... that's wrong.

It holds to value that having a PvP only stat helps DEVs control PvP and keeping it separate from PvE. But is that right or a cop out? Dozens of other games don't separate their gear with stats like Expertise, and the majority of them have a much better balanced PvP system that works hand in hand with PvE.

Needed.

As a side note...

I find your wording of statements like "No, Needed as in keep it. Not needed as in re-work the system." as incredibly loaded and disingenuous.

That's like saying "Are classes really NEEDED?" Well no, I can theoretically come up with a system where they wouldn't be needed, and other games have done without them before. So I guess the answer in your world is "No, not needed".

In a PRACTICAL sense of what the future of the game MOST LIKELY holds, the answer is yes. The likelihood of them completely redesigning a key segment of the game from the ground up (that would impact other areas as our current system has existed and affected the balance of other parts of the game), is VERY small. So in practical terms (read: terms that actually matter), the answer is potentially different than your loaded criteria is trying to promote.