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Criticism of the Reward Structure in SWTOR


AwesomeTacoCat

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I am unhappy about the the reward structure in SWTOR as I think the current system is overwhelmingly flawed. TLDR: Content that is more difficult and more time consuming should give greater rewards than content that is less difficult and takes less time.

 

Let me start with the issue. Chain running MM Hammer Station is the fastest way to gear and the fastest way to level up renown. Doing one-off conquest objectives is the fastest way to earn conquest points: for example, this week: complete the Dantooine Weekly, kill Ossus world bosses, complete Ziost Weekly. After these are exhausted, story mode operations are one of the fastest conquest earners. What are the fastest ways to make credits (other than playing the GTN or crafting)? Heroics and chain running easy flashpoints like Hammer Station.

 

The problem is that all of these activities require about 7 functioning neurons to complete. Whereas the rewards (be it gear, conquest, credits, renown) from HM/NiM operations, harder MM flashpoints, MM uprisings, or ranked pvp are all dwarfed by these mind-numbingly simple activities.

 

Moreover, even within the set of activities that only necessitate a single digit IQ to complete, there is a complete lack of parity. Completing an unranked war zone is about as hard as completing MM hammer station, yet the rewards from an unranked war zone are hilariously low relative to MM HS.

 

So, what needs to be done? I think the reward system in this game needs to be completely overhauled. The rewards for an activity need to be proportionate to the skill and time required to complete them. I think the following would be a step in the right direction:

 

(1) HM and NiM operations need to have their rewards drastically increased. This is the hardest content in the game so should be rewarded as such (in terms of credits, valuable items, gear, renown, etc.). Some will argue that titles and mounts are enough and that’s, like, your opinion man, but I disagree.

(2) Flashpoints need to have tiered rewards that are commensurate with their difficulty. Completing Blood Hunt should offer a far greater reward than Hammer Station.

(3) Ranked PVP needs higher rewards. Some will argue this will dilute ques, but then again others will argue the ques are too low right now. From a “fairness” perspective, winning ranked pvp matches is not faceroll, so should be rewarded as such.

(4) Unranked PVP needs higher rewards relative to VM flashpoints. Completing a war zone (or winning a war zone) is just as challenging as completing most veteran mode FPs (which is to say not overly challenging) and should be treated more evenly.

 

Ultimately, I think changes in this direction will increase player satisfaction by encouraging people to work towards completing more challenging (and less boring) content and by fostering a sense of fairness in the reward structure.

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I agree completely. Unfortunately, this was brought up repeatedly during testing and immediately following launch, and things haven't changed one iota since then. That leads me to believe they (a) don't care or (b) don't have the technology to provide different rewards in specific content (I know, it sounds laughable, but with this game's engine, who knows).

 

There's no good reason that MM HS should reward better drops than SM DXUN or VM DXUN. There's no point of comparison in difficulty. Same with, as you said, MM Blood Hunt, Korriban, Nathema, Chiss, etc. It's a total waste of time at the moment, even though I refuse to do anything but queue random out of principle.

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I agree with everything you mentioned, unfortunately we live in the 'everyone gets a trophy' generation and I highly doubt that's gonna change anytime soon in today's world. And it's trickled down to this level. You need to look no further than who owns Star Wars now and the agenda they've been trying to push for years.

 

Harder content should always net greater rewards. That's like saying JoSchmo who hasn't put the time and work in deserves to get the same wages as the person that actually put the work in. And before some yahoo chimes in with, "I pay my fifteen dollars a month like everyone else, I should get the same rewards." No, you shouldn't.

 

Your criticisms are spot on.

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Ultimately, I think changes in this direction will increase player satisfaction by encouraging people to work towards completing more challenging (and less boring) content and by fostering a sense of fairness in the reward structure.

 

While I agree the reward structure needs a lot of work to improve it (looks at the godawful PvP rewards for both ranked and unranked), I've singled out this one part I disagree on.

 

I'm quite capable of running MM HS or Dxun, however I suspect it'll be the same as running Veteran HS in terms of other players ability being somewhat annoying, I don't want to work hard for rewards, I just want to slowly grind my conquest points and collect tech fragments to get gear. I'm in no rush and it's easier than dealing with some of the idiots who can't play the game (I see enough of them in Veteran flashpoints and unranked PvP as it is!).

 

I don't disagree that harder content should have better rewards though, it's not an incentive for me but may be for others.

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I don't want to work hard for rewards,

Yeah to me that about sums it up for me. I can't subscribe to this way of thinking, but that probably puts me and the OP in a minority of what's left of the player base here.

 

I got my initial 10 characters geared within 3 weeks. Made 3 more characters and they had a full set of gear before hitting level 75. I have more tech frags than I know what to do with and tomorrow I'll have the conquest mats needed to put my 11th character in full augments. I've reached the stage where nothing is rewarding anymore because it comes down to gear I don't need and tech fragments I can't spend.

 

I don't know what this slow grind is that you speak of. It's probably something you decided for yourself. I haven't even set foot in harder content because I didn't need to and I don't care to anymore cause there's not enough incentive. It seems to me that it's about time for another break for me. Cause really, I was already done with 6.0 gearing in less than a month. And that's the other side of this problem. It's too easy and too quick and the game has nothing else to offer to progress your character horizontally or vertically for that matter. And any non-stat rewards you have to buy separate yourself as it is. Well at least you helped me clarify a few things for myself. I thank you for that at least :)

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I agree with everything you said. As a result of the new system, our guild rarely do ops anymore because the rewards are not there. We have a HM group that is running the ops in HM so everyone who doesn't have the achievements can get them but as a rule, we do a guild SM ops like once or twice a week. Usually only if it's a CQ objective.
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Yeah to me that about sums it up for me. I can't subscribe to this way of thinking, but that probably puts me and the OP in a minority of what's left of the player base here.

 

I got my initial 10 characters geared within 3 weeks. Made 3 more characters and they had a full set of gear before hitting level 75. I have more tech frags than I know what to do with and tomorrow I'll have the conquest mats needed to put my 11th character in full augments. I've reached the stage where nothing is rewarding anymore because it comes down to gear I don't need and tech fragments I can't spend.

 

I don't know what this slow grind is that you speak of. It's probably something you decided for yourself. I haven't even set foot in harder content because I didn't need to and I don't care to anymore cause there's not enough incentive. It seems to me that it's about time for another break for me. Cause really, I was already done with 6.0 gearing in less than a month. And that's the other side of this problem. It's too easy and too quick and the game has nothing else to offer to progress your character horizontally or vertically for that matter. And any non-stat rewards you have to buy separate yourself as it is. Well at least you helped me clarify a few things for myself. I thank you for that at least :)

 

After doing all the things, you mentioned I'm stuck gambling my tech fragments on the unique item of Kai Zyken in the hopes I get my setbonus... That's the other problem of the rewards some setbonuses aren't on the vendor, even doing dxun HM still haven't completed my set. It is galling that a a guardian or shadow can spam MM HS and with a max 18k tech fragments get the best in slot setbonus.

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I don't care about the reward talk but I care about player attitude and mentality

 

"I never step foot in harder content because I can get all the reward I want from lower content"

 

I always hoped humans were interested in the unknown in a new experience, a new story

vs

the animals that were interested mostly in the carrot (reward) and repeating every day the same stuff with no change

take a cow or a donkey or a pig they do every day the same stuff for the reward(food)

 

but the more I play videogame the more I see players doing over and over the same **** for a carrot and totally ignore to explore and try new stuff.

 

I wouldn't blame the game that "doesn't force you" to play it as a human just blame in on people that are stuck at an animal mentality.

Edited by Pekish
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I don't care about the reward talk but I care about player attitude and mentality

 

"I never step foot in harder content because I can get all the reward I want from lower content"

 

I always hoped humans were interested in the unknown in a new experience, a new story

vs

the animals that were interested mostly in the carrot (reward) and repeating every day the same stuff with no change

take a cow or a donkey or a pig they do every day the same stuff for the reward(food)

 

but the more I play videogame the more I see players doing over and over the same **** for a carrot and totally ignore to explore and try new stuff.

 

I wouldn't blame the game that "doesn't force you" to play it as a human just blame in on people that are stuck at an animal mentality.

 

I love the adventure and the challenge of harder content, but at a certain point this current design is practically a "slap" in the "face." In other words, after running Dxun just ONCE, in what 2-3 hours? and probably at least 1 or 2 wipes depending on whether it's a guild run or a LFG chat group, how much have I gotten for my efforts?

 

Usually, O% chance of any set bonus or tactical item. O%!!! One may drop from the end boss every few runs, but there's no guaranteed drop even on last boss, let alone any of the others. If, by some miracle, 1 set bonus piece does drop, now I get to roll on it in a pool of 1/8 or 1/16.

 

What about ONE SINGLE MM HS run? After 20 mins tops, I have a 1/4 chance EVERY TIME of getting at least one tactical or set bonus piece. In the same 2-3 hours, I will have had the opportunity to roll on approximately 6-9 pieces compared to 0-1. And I have 0 repair costs compared to likely 60-70K or more.

 

So, simply from a rewards perspective, which is what this thread is about, there's a night and day difference.

 

Mind you, Hard Mode Operations outside of DXUN do appear have 1 guaranteed tactical/set bonus drop from each boss, but that's still 1/8 chance instead of 1/4 chance for far, far more work than running HS. At a certain point, it's simply not worth the time invested to run the same operations as forever and get terrible rewards.

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I remember when I used to play other video games it was really never for a reward but to see how it ended or what next that was before MMO.

 

How many hours people used to play to F1GP or sensible soccer or streetfighter or pacman...the reward was to get better or Monkey island the reward was the story solving puzzles.

 

Obviously, the quantity of hours people put in MMORPG is different but there has been a big shift in the typology of players

 

Rewards are like sugar in food at a certain point in the '80-'90 company found out that putting a lot of sugar was making people dependent on the product and selling much more then suddenly in 2000+ they find out it was not a great idea.

 

The reward is like sugar and I hope soon we will get out of this outdated mentality that the game is fun because of a silly pixelated reward (that honestly mean nothing)... the sooner the better we will go back to enjoy videogame in a less addictive and sick way.

Edited by Pekish
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While I get where people complaining about the rewards are coming from, I really miss the times when fun was enough reason to play a game. I know that especially the 5.0 cycle taught players to count the worth of any ingame activity by how many command point/crates and conquest points it earned per hour and they do the very same now with the new system. But maybe that is actually the flawed point of view.

Ops are fun, FPs are fun, class story are fun. At least to me even after now 8 years. From time to time I even enjoy the old daily areas. My guild runs operation because it's fun to play them together. For us, the achievements and conquest are just a nice bonus but not the main reason we do them.

If the game isn't fun for you without rewards, maybe ask for making it fun again rather than implementing rewards that make you do stuff you don't really enjoy anyway. Since it still won't be fun and you'd more or less get payed in goods for doing it. How often has someone wrote in this forum, it's a game, not work.

Rewards are nice, no question, but as soon they are the only reason to do something, that something inherently is something you don't really want to do and just get manipulated by your "greed" to do it.

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The point of 6.0 was to get gear no matter the content played. That it would be proportionate to the difficulty and time investment, sadly that is not the case.. in the same amount of time, You get more rewards from spamming a few MM hammerstation than doing a NiM ops. You might seem to think it's a few pixels difference, but the end result is that less ppl do harder content because if this. Sure, I que random flashpoints because I'm sick to death of hammerstation, but I am seeing less ppl willing to do ops.
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While I get where people complaining about the rewards are coming from, I really miss the times when fun was enough reason to play a game. I know that especially the 5.0 cycle taught players to count the worth of any ingame activity by how many command point/crates and conquest points it earned per hour and they do the very same now with the new system. But maybe that is actually the flawed point of view.

Ops are fun, FPs are fun, class story are fun. At least to me even after now 8 years. From time to time I even enjoy the old daily areas. My guild runs operation because it's fun to play them together. For us, the achievements and conquest are just a nice bonus but not the main reason we do them.

If the game isn't fun for you without rewards, maybe ask for making it fun again rather than implementing rewards that make you do stuff you don't really enjoy anyway. Since it still won't be fun and you'd more or less get payed in goods for doing it. How often has someone wrote in this forum, it's a game, not work.

Rewards are nice, no question, but as soon they are the only reason to do something, that something inherently is something you don't really want to do and just get manipulated by your "greed" to do it.

 

"Fun" is always subjective.

 

"Satisfying" is also subjective.

 

For many people, "fun" and "satisfying" both are tied to appropriate rewards. You're telling me that you would happily run operations even if there were no drops, achievements, gear, decos or anything else? No acknowledgement you actually accomplished anything, except for getting a lockout?

 

I agree that content design also contributes significantly to whether something is "fun" or "boring," but it's not realistic at this point for them to create enough new content to fill people with emotion who have likely already run Karagga's Palace hundreds or thousands of times. Even the best content/food/movies, etc. get old after you've experienced them hundreds of times. Add an achievement for watching that movie one more time, or a remake of the same movie, and suddenly you've breathed new life into it. At least, that's what I personally find fun.

 

There needs to be a purpose to what I'm doing, and DXUN, while fresh, just doesn't do it for me without the rewards. It was exciting the first few times, but it's not worth the hassle of putting a group together.

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A few expansions ago you had such a thing as highlighted hardmode ops. While yes ppl spammed KP and EV, because the best gear dropped from these ops, you had even more ppl trying out other harder content and there was a significant amount of pickup groups willing to maybe farm them but also take new players along. There was an incentive and it is lacking now.
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So if I queue unranked and get an arena, how is that easier than Ranked? It's the same map and objectives.

 

And where is the gear progression for OW PvP? How many conquest points should we get for guarding a Named Commander for an entire week?

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This about sums up just about any RPG nowadays, it's all about trying to get new players happy and keeping everyone content.

 

Me personally i hate this new system i HATE IT SO *********** MUCH i think i have run 1 ops this whole xpax 1 because their is not only not a need to do so but no real drive to do so.

 

This type of gearing system belongs in the trash because not only will it stagnate the game just look at wow while their are a few guilds that do raids they are nowhere near what they used to be all because of the mythic+ system which people warned blizz about but no one lissioned and now they can't do anything about it and the raiding sence is losing players like crazy because other then the mythic mount their is no drive for people to go in their.

 

Same as this game you put a vender on the fleet that you can just buy all the end game shells and then you just run like 5 vet flashpoints and boom you are geared up and ready to go.... who the hell thought that was a good idea.

 

Even just getting the fragments to buy your sets and tacts takes at most like 1-2 days of just running flashpoinst which me and a guildy have been doing while we just get our conquest up and testing toons to see which class we like with the 6.0 changes and it is so bad.

 

Their used to be a gear chain which every MMO used and it was good and healthy since it ment people were always running all the content, you a fresh max lvl well into battle of ilum fps, then it was EV then KP and so on and so forth people ran everything and their was always people doing all content which was good, i can't tell you how since to death i am of hammer station now, the only reason i still run the damn this is that i want the box rewards for having everything ticked if i could removed 1-2 it would easly be kuat and hammer.

 

Will bioware fix this issue HA no they arn't going to fix anything just look at the 6.1 changes they proposs they don't know *** they are doing.

 

Edit 1: Also it's a way for them to extend the amount of content that is in the game in that everything gives out top rewards making it so that the devs don't have to make longer and more engaging content, i can't even remember the last time we truely had a good new area to the game that came with dailys, wb's, interesting new enemys and just new secret and fun stuff for us all the do maybe SoR.

Edited by Darkchip
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This issue is exacerbated by the simple fact that the current level 75 endgame consists of 2 bosses and a buggy FP.

 

BW logic:

I cant afford to create new content > ok let's rescale everything to be relevant all the time > oh no, now I can't do that either > awesome, let's just keep all the old content where is was last expansion, but raise the level cap to call it a major expansion

 

...

 

Seriously, we'd all prefer more, actual new content. We all also know that's next to impossible. So suck it up BW and raise the ruddy level cap, or why am I grinding gear that's literally pointless outside of 2 bosses.

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So if I queue unranked and get an arena, how is that easier than Ranked? It's the same map and objectives.

 

And where is the gear progression for OW PvP? How many conquest points should we get for guarding a Named Commander for an entire week?

 

Because ranked comes with seasonal rewards and stuff, you'll generally find the more dedicated players in ranked rather than unranked. It's not always like that but as a general rule you could say that you won't run into really skilled players as much in unranked as you would in ranked. That's what makes unranked easier by comparison.

 

OW PvP is not an actual activity that BW cares about. They allow you to do it if you really want to, they don't encourage it in any shape or form and when I have seen OW PvP, it's generally guilds doing kill trading for achievements.

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After doing all the things, you mentioned I'm stuck gambling my tech fragments on the unique item of Kai Zyken in the hopes I get my setbonus... That's the other problem of the rewards some setbonuses aren't on the vendor, even doing dxun HM still haven't completed my set. It is galling that a a guardian or shadow can spam MM HS and with a max 18k tech fragments get the best in slot setbonus.

 

And then the question is: where's the fun in that? I just can't be bothered to even go there. I got the best set bonuses available for all my toons from the vendor. I understand what you are doing but I think it's all wrong that this is what it has come to for you.

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Yeah to me that about sums it up for me. I can't subscribe to this way of thinking, but that probably puts me and the OP in a minority of what's left of the player base here.

 

I mean that as I play the game to have fun and as much as I dislike saying it, some of the community of players are complete idiots and I don't want to run the harder content with them.

 

I don't know what this slow grind is that you speak of. It's probably something you decided for yourself.

 

Time factor and more interested in doing things that don't provide a gazillion tech fragments. There's plenty of things to do in the game that actually provide zero tech fragments for your time. Certainly more fun than some of the other stuff that does :p

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I mean that as I play the game to have fun and as much as I dislike saying it, some of the community of players are complete idiots and I don't want to run the harder content with them.
I can sympathize with that.

Time factor and more interested in doing things that don't provide a gazillion tech fragments. There's plenty of things to do in the game that actually provide zero tech fragments for your time. Certainly more fun than some of the other stuff that does :p
I suppose I wouldn't call it a grind if I chose to do it that way, but I catch your meaning :)
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"Fun" is always subjective.

 

"Satisfying" is also subjective.

 

For many people, "fun" and "satisfying" both are tied to appropriate rewards. You're telling me that you would happily run operations even if there were no drops, achievements, gear, decos or anything else? No acknowledgement you actually accomplished anything, except for getting a lockout?

 

I agree that content design also contributes significantly to whether something is "fun" or "boring," but it's not realistic at this point for them to create enough new content to fill people with emotion who have likely already run Karagga's Palace hundreds or thousands of times. Even the best content/food/movies, etc. get old after you've experienced them hundreds of times. Add an achievement for watching that movie one more time, or a remake of the same movie, and suddenly you've breathed new life into it. At least, that's what I personally find fun.

 

There needs to be a purpose to what I'm doing, and DXUN, while fresh, just doesn't do it for me without the rewards. It was exciting the first few times, but it's not worth the hassle of putting a group together.

 

As long those operations are fun to me and the people I run them with, yes I would, cause considering I neither do really need the tech fragments any more, drops of credits and what not right now nor all that stuff that dropped there over most parts of the 5.0 cycle. As others wrote my main character and favourite alts too by now are more or less equipped well enough to play any content I like and have the time and opportunity for.

I lack only the newest FP achievements, still it's fun to run the other ones too, (except for HS and RR these days but that's due to the players found there and not the FP itself). I even run them with pugs half the time, since running them with the very same guild group does get boring after a while. Pugs are like a surprise menu ;)

The only things interesting drops/rewards for me would be decorations that can or cannot drop and since they are ffa in our groups with a few stronghold enthusiasts, I can win them of course but usually have bad luck. I could get FP decorations out of the solo modes, but honestly that mode is no fun to me, so I did it once or twice to get a decoration I really really wanted when they were implemented (that rare Korriban slave statue in MM...) and then never again. Likewise nothing could make me do uprisings, not even the greatest reward since gaming.

So in sum, I already play without getting a reward that I really care for.

Though, yes I have to admit I wouldn't suggest KP or EV myself when being asked what to run today. Those are okay once in a while, but I prefer doing the more advanced operations mechanics way more, being it Revan or Ravager, Gods or DXUN

As it is I already have most operations achievements and those I don't, are out of reach due time investment and preferring my friendly and harmonic raid group that simply isn't able to do every NIM boss there is to those in the long term rather toxic groups I've come to know in the past.

 

You are right of course, fun and satisfaction is subjective, to me for example an achievement to watch a movie again wouldn't entice me at all if it wasn't fun to me watching it again in the first place. Because the film itself doesn't change at all except for that number counter. On the other hands watching it together with the right people could be a lot of fun again.

Which leads me to the question of would operations offer more fun to you all of a sudden, if there was an infinite counter how often you killed which boss? Even nothing else had changed?

And I wonder how would people have reacted if the gear treadmill had taken longer instead of 6.0 being the fasted since SWTOR release. Especially with the scaled down content, there was no real need to grind and grind and grind HS and RR over and over, except for a very small part of the player base. Still a lot of players felt forced to do that as much and as fast as possible, and now they realise, it was for nothing because they don't need what they'd get elsewhere anymore. Stole their own rewards from themselves so to speak.

They could have achieved the same thing if they had just played the game as before, doing a diverse mix of content to their liking and get there slower but maybe with more fun.

In my opinion that is the big problem of focusing only on the reward side instead of the fun side too.

 

I know not everyone has fun like I do, the enjoyment coming from the people I play with for the most part. Still to me it's strange to have a go at the reward structure instead of making the content itself more interesting.

Also complaining in fleet chat or this forum telling newer and returning players left and right, this or that isn't worth the effort also leads to the a self-made problem of players not doing content because they are actively discouraged by the veterans. It's like the fun aspect is totally taken out of the equation.

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As long those operations are fun to me and the people I run them with, yes I would.

 

Well, I can honestly say that I am happy for you! I'm glad that you find more enjoyment from spending time with your friends running pretty much any content available. I know you're not the only player who feels that way, since I think a lot of people who subbed through the massive content drought of 5.0 did so mainly because of their in-game friends.

 

I personally don't have the same close connection with other people in my guild, mainly because I tend to have a more loner personality. I like hanging out with them, but it's not what keeps me playing. In fact, I have alts in something like 5 different guilds.

 

Ironically, we agree about a few things. I prefer running content with more challenging mechanics, such as ToS, Rav, SnV, etc. I love HM runs. I haven't run any NiM content since I've been back, however.

 

That's kind of the point of this whole thread for me. Because an important part of the game for me is running cool content AND being rewarded appropriately for my time investment, I'd like to see rewards that scale according to the time required for completion. I would hope that that would mean that more people would participate, and the queue (yes, I always queue random GF) would give me Tython MM and Blood Hunt MM instead of Hammer Station every time, lol.

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The renown crates are weak. I enjoyed the command crates before 6.0 because I could do anything, now its just grinding hammer station. IDK, I just know that I have been playing since launch and since 6.0, I just seem to care to much anymore.

 

The tacticals and stuff seem cool, but running the same old stuff again and again and again just get a set bonus, is just boring.

 

I dont even spend time leveling my alts because those 5 levels is just doing the same stuff again.

 

Maybe its been too many years since 2011

Edited by kirorx
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You are right that it should be more balanced in terms of rewards.

 

As someone who does not have time for OPS though, I am not affected by that part of your post. I am however affected by people only running Hammer Station in the group finder. I want to be able to complete my weekly and daily without having to run Hammer Station ALL THE TIME.

 

There must be a way to fix this, so that if I queue for a random FP...I get a random FP!

 

Either reduce the HS reward or make it impossible to skip so many mobs...

Edited by Gokkus
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