your logic...is logical. must...terminate.

 

 

 

I'm not following you here. shroud is 3-5s. what's giving them 12s of immunity?

 

 

 

ikr?

 

 

rofl

 

I'm...sorry....I can't....BW...seriously.

 

You've convinced me bansky. wildstar can't be worse than this.

Yup I know none of us in guild are really playing much anymore with the whole 8v8s going away and these last two rounds of dev answer's have pretty much pissed off more than half the guild but **** it... just hang around mumble play other games and chill with us until wildstar!

Until than we just have to live with out perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem, perception problem,

In short, this is a perception problem, and it is one that you admit didn’t exist when Assault Specialist dealt more damage. When Assault Specialist damage goes up, will this perception issue go away? If not, we’ll address the issue, but we aren’t looking to make massive improvements that would only tip the scales in the other direction.

It's not a perception problem.

When my Pyro PT did more damage I was worth taking to an Op. I didn't have very much group utility, and I didn't have much in the way of defensive skills/traits to mitigate damage, but I did a lot of damage. Enough damage to match the top damage output of other DPS class/specs, so I was able to come on that character. That's not the case any more...no one brings a Pyro PT to any Op or FP in my guild. Powertechs tank or they gather dust.

When my Pyro PT did more damage it was also worth playing in PvP. Even after the range reduction on several skills it was still worth playing. I could line up very strong burst, and my DoTs (if they didn't get cleansed) did decent damage. My one defensive CD was usually enough to get a solo kill, or to live long enough in the scrum to take someone down with me, and it could be traited to lower the cool down every time I was attacked. That's not the case any more. My DoT damage has been greatly reduced, and my burst is a shell of its former self. My one defensive CD has been gutted as well as the trait that improved it has been moved to a different skill tree. My Pyro PT doesn't PvP any more either.

There is a big difference between a perception problem and "I do one thing well enough to overlook my shortcomings in other areas". I no longer do enough DPS as a Pyro to overlook my shortcomings, so it sits unused.

I would sincerely hope for other ACs tjat this kind of dev response would be filtered through less arrogant and dismissive people. I would like to know which dev wrote that. I would ask for them to create a dialogue wiith the players and explain more specifically the concerns addressed by the community.

I think this whole PR community election bull****is making Bioware appear WORSE in the eyes of the players.

I have the feeling that it's impossible to actually go test full Assault on the PTS, you know, with the Plasma Cell and CgC being broken on the PTS.

But maybe this is a perception problem.... Hmmm.. It's hard having these problems.

I know that by saying this, I am going to get flamed, called an idiot or probably other choice words...but:

Grow up guys.

I view myself as an active member of PT/VG community, and while I feel your pain, I also recognize that acting like children will get us nothing. Repeatedly posting "perception problem" in red/white/blue that takes up an entire page is not how we want to be viewed.

Am I frustrated with the combat team's responses? You bet. But if we want to be taken seriously, we need to act seriously. Ever wonder why Shadow/Sin tanks got the response from BioWare a few weeks back stating that their complaints about spike damage in NiM operations were under review? It's because they presented their thoughts/opinions with data/metrics, not just "I can't kill healers anymore in PVP and in PVE no one likes my class!"

In all honesty, our questions were terrible. Even mine, which was the 2nd question, was worded terribly. I couldn't read question 1 and 3 without getting lost. How can we expect rational answers when we give them irrational questions? I'm not solely blaming mrfourcustom here. In general, the VG/PT community was very poor at getting organized for this window of opportunity.

We still have our Powertech questions coming up in October. Let's learn from this, and come better prepared next time.

excuse me please stop spamming this garbage, pts are incredibly underpowered compared to sorcs. pts cant even heal themselves to full, only to 30%. that is so underpowered. sorcs need a nerf while pts need a slight buff so they can actually heal themselves to full. meanwhile THE MARAUDER needs to be completely buffed as it cant even heal itself to full a little bit!

Again, If you heal to full the MARAUDER will get scared. They are cowards and will atk you only if you are below 50%. L2P, and don't forget LOS; .

PTs, have perception problem. They think they have dps trees. They don't. They have good tank tree (shield tech), mediocre tank tree (AP) and weak tank tree (pyro). You want to dps you have to change your "perception" and roll the MARAUDER.

This message is brought to you buy BW devs. Not really but could be.

I'm not following you here. shroud is 3-5s. what's giving them 12s of immunity?

Ah, you are right, sorry. Literally, my assassin was my 8th 50, so I do not remember as many of his skills very well. I mixed up the durations for Force Shroud and Deflection (which btw, is a another great skill that Vanguards don't have something similar like Guardians do with Saber Ward).

You've convinced me bansky. wildstar can't be worse than this.

The Wildstar devs actually really love their players. A Massively article came out that gave a bad review to Wildstar (for unfair reasons like not being about to change keybinds at a demo, since they turned it off for the demo). The first three posts were rather vitriolic from fans of the game as they protested the unfair conclusions, and the fourth post was the Community Manager of Wildstar calling for civility saying that they appreciated all feedback, including bad reviews, so they could make a better game. My jaw flipping hit the floor.

This is only one example of many of the Wildstar team taking care of their fans long before they are customers. Check out my podcast at WildstarRadio.com for more examples even. We pretty much have something like this to talk about every week.

I know that by saying this, I am going to get flamed, called an idiot or probably other choice words...but:

 

Grow up guys.

 

I view myself as an active member of PT/VG community, and while I feel your pain, I also recognize that acting like children will get us nothing. Repeatedly posting "perception problem" in red/white/blue that takes up an entire page is not how we want to be viewed.

 

Am I frustrated with the combat team's responses? You bet. But if we want to be taken seriously, we need to act seriously. Ever wonder why Shadow/Sin tanks got the response from BioWare a few weeks back stating that their complaints about spike damage in NiM operations were under review? It's because they presented their thoughts/opinions with data/metrics, not just "I can't kill healers anymore in PVP and in PVE no one likes my class!"

 

In all honesty, our questions were terrible. Even mine, which was the 2nd question, was worded terribly. I couldn't read question 1 and 3 without getting lost. How can we expect rational answers when we give them irrational questions? I'm not solely blaming mrfourcustom here. In general, the VG/PT community was very poor at getting organized for this window of opportunity.

 

We still have our Powertech questions coming up in October. Let's learn from this, and come better prepared next time.

Agree to 100%

Agree to 100%

Agree 0%

 

In all honesty, our questions were terrible.

Then they should have asked the representative for clarification or further explanation. It's not really the answers they gave, but the dismissive tone that they used.

Let's take this quote from the Sorcerer answers:

The fact is, Marauders and Snipers cannot heal themselves to full.

That reminds me of this famous Han Solo quote:

C-3PO: Sir, it's quite possible this asteroid is not entirely stable.

Han Solo: Not entirely stable. I'm glad you're here to tell us these things. Chewie! Take the Professor in back and plug him into the hyperdrive!

Players felt like Han Solo after that little quote. We are fully aware that Sorcerers can heal and that Vanguards have ranged attacks. We don't need the developers to tell us these things. What we needed was the developers to tell us why they believe these supposed advantages outweigh the disadvantages these classes' were saddled with.

For example, on the Vanguard survivability issue if they had said something like: "Well, we reviewed our metrics and Vanguards/PTs in pyro spec do not die significantly more often than other Vanguard specs or other players. While there are a lack of defensive options in the spec, we think that the 2.4 changes might help by increasing burst and kill times thereby giving Assault Vanguard defense through the 'best offense'. If this turns out not to be the case, we can monitor and make more changes as necessary."

That would have been a respectful, reasonable answer. It would have essentially said the same thing. That they don't see any disparity, but they are buffing damage and hope that will help players feel more comfortable with the class. But instead, they wrote the answers to basically tell the players that it was all in our minds. That's not a reasonable way to answer the posts and the developers deserve the drubbing they are getting.

I know that by saying this, I am going to get flamed, called an idiot or probably other choice words...but:

 

Grow up guys.

 

I view myself as an active member of PT/VG community, and while I feel your pain, I also recognize that acting like children will get us nothing. Repeatedly posting "perception problem" in red/white/blue that takes up an entire page is not how we want to be viewed.

 

Am I frustrated with the combat team's responses? You bet. But if we want to be taken seriously, we need to act seriously. Ever wonder why Shadow/Sin tanks got the response from BioWare a few weeks back stating that their complaints about spike damage in NiM operations were under review? It's because they presented their thoughts/opinions with data/metrics, not just "I can't kill healers anymore in PVP and in PVE no one likes my class!"

 

In all honesty, our questions were terrible. Even mine, which was the 2nd question, was worded terribly. I couldn't read question 1 and 3 without getting lost. How can we expect rational answers when we give them irrational questions? I'm not solely blaming mrfourcustom here. In general, the VG/PT community was very poor at getting organized for this window of opportunity.

 

We still have our Powertech questions coming up in October. Let's learn from this, and come better prepared next time.

This is spot on.

Look, whoever is writing these answers is doing, in many ways, a terrible job of communicating ideas in a way which doesn't come across poorly. The same things could be said in much better ways.

That being said, the questions they got really weren't phrased in the most cogent or helpful way, either. Some of what the BW rep said was correct: comparing classes in the way that the question did is never going to produce useful results and is going to produce all kinds of unhelpful perceptions. Some of what was said in the response was incorrect, too, but the way to demonstrate that is with metrics and figures and numbers, not shouting and whining and crying.

Moreover, we have already seen that the changes to AP have been very good in the PTS. The most recent changes to the pyrotech tree is impossible to test now, because of the cylinder being broken on the PTS. My point is that, yes, the answers weren't great and were worded poorly, but calm down, take a step back, and look at the bigger picture.

I know that by saying this, I am going to get flamed, called an idiot or probably other choice words...but:

 

Grow up guys.

 

I view myself as an active member of PT/VG community, and while I feel your pain, I also recognize that acting like children will get us nothing. Repeatedly posting "perception problem" in red/white/blue that takes up an entire page is not how we want to be viewed.

 

Am I frustrated with the combat team's responses? You bet. But if we want to be taken seriously, we need to act seriously. Ever wonder why Shadow/Sin tanks got the response from BioWare a few weeks back stating that their complaints about spike damage in NiM operations were under review? It's because they presented their thoughts/opinions with data/metrics, not just "I can't kill healers anymore in PVP and in PVE no one likes my class!"

 

In all honesty, our questions were terrible. Even mine, which was the 2nd question, was worded terribly. I couldn't read question 1 and 3 without getting lost. How can we expect rational answers when we give them irrational questions? I'm not solely blaming mrfourcustom here. In general, the VG/PT community was very poor at getting organized for this window of opportunity.

 

We still have our Powertech questions coming up in October. Let's learn from this, and come better prepared next time.

You are probably right, Scythe. You seem pretty level headed. Its just that there are so many things wrong with the class, it's hard to know where to begin with the questions.

On the other hand, the Sorc questions were very eloquently stated and very specific and the combat team's response was more or less the same.

For example, on the Vanguard survivability issue if they had said something like: "Well, we reviewed our metrics and Vanguards/PTs in pyro spec do not die significantly more often than other Vanguard specs or other players. While there are a lack of defensive options in the spec, we think that the 2.4 changes might help by increasing burst and kill times thereby giving Assault Vanguard defense through the 'best offense'. If this turns out not to be the case, we can monitor and make more changes as necessary."

 

That would have been a respectful, reasonable answer. It would have essentially said the same thing. That they don't see any disparity, but they are buffing damage and hope that will help players feel more comfortable with the class. But instead, they wrote the answers to basically tell the players that it was all in our minds. That's not a reasonable way to answer the posts and the developers deserve the drubbing they are getting.

Precisely. The answer was not all that bad, really - I actually agree with it, in fact. Pre 2.0, Powertechs' lower survivability was offset by their tremendous offensive power. They were a glass cannon.

If by "perception problem," the developers mean that they are perceived to have poor defense because their offense is not currently where it ought to be, then that makes sense! I can buy into that. However, by just calling it a perception problem in the way they did, it comes across in a really terrible, awful way. They need to get someone to review these things before they go out and make sure it comes across far better.

Agree to 100%

I will be honest with, some of the questions were poorly worded; however, the message was delivered. The responses however:

First question:

DPS VG/PTs are in melee range but do not have the survivability that other melee classes have and do not have enough burst and sustained damage to have an impact. Question goes into a bit more detail but that is the summary.

Response summary: you have 30 meter atks. You have perception problems. L2P. Down right gave the community the middle finger.

Second Question:

Was regarding hybrids out performing singles trees and pyro dps sucking.

Response summary: It was not intended for the hybrids. Pyro has burn out that results in big damage in 30% phases that you do not see on dummies. I guess they assume no one ever set foot in an operation, looked at TORparse before or actually did the math of how much damage of how much damage the burn out period provides or the tree over all damage is. Ohh, we did some upgrades on PTS. You guys should check it! Except the nerfed pyro PvE damage potential and hybrids. So tactics is the only valid dps option, and still not all that great compared to other classes.

Response included incorrect information, poorly prepared and wrong logic. Also, why the **** mention training dummy?! Who gives a **** about training dummy parses when you have real ops bosses. Plan dumb.'

Third question:

All dps trees damage is not all that great. Sustained is mediocre and burst is not any better. TTK in PvP is very high and pyro tree specifically has terrible surivivability.

Response summary: You guys should check the changes on PTS!!! As if no one did. Did they realize there was 157 replies form in PTS regarding the changes class changes, pretty much bashing the changes and the nerf to pyro? They avoid the entire question, tell us there is an upgrade coming in 2.4, even through both the community and the devs know that the so called upgrade is not an upgrade at all (maybe for tactics). It just shows how out of touch they are with what's going on.

Conclusion is, they assumed the audience for the responses have been playing the class for 2-3 days and waiting for the devs to guide them, instead of elder game veterans who have been running RWZs and end game ops and know exactly how every single class performs. Responses the like 30 meter atks and burn out are just plan dumb.

But to be honest, its the "perception problem" is what threw me off. So the entire community has a perception problem? Are they try to insult our intelligence?! Or tell us **** you we do not give a ****. I am not sure. Never the less, I consider this unacceptable customer service.

Haha, if you're going to blame these horrid, horrid answers on the wording of the questions, you're most likely just trying to tell yourself that there's still hope because you can't handle the truth or because you're so addicted you can't handle the thought of unsubbing.

In all honesty, Bioware shouldn't need perfect questions to see what's wrong. And the sorc questions were fine btw, but ofc those noobs should just L2P.

Haha, if you're going to blame these horrid, horrid answers on the wording of the questions, you're most likely just trying to tell yourself that there's still hope because you can't handle the truth or because you're so addicted you can't handle the thought of unsubbing.

 

In all honesty, Bioware shouldn't need questions to see what's wrong. And the sorc questions were fine btw, but ofc those noobs should just L2P.

I agree with the sorc replies, at least for DPS. I know its a tough thing for a lot of people to hear, but the class really does have a very high skill cap. Players at the very top of the chart can do very, very well because their kiting, LOS, and positioning are very good. Players who are average or even above average will not do as well. To me, this is fine. Sorcs really are glass cannons which do so much damage that they need to be extremely squishy otherwise.

For healers, the answers are not good enough.

But this is not the place to discuss that.

soo i see no point in playing my vg and pt anymore..and that kind of sucks since they are the only classes i enjoy.

judging by the changes they've made so far and by the response they've given.. it's clear to me that they do not know what they are doing.. heck just take a look at the assault/pyro skill tree.. *** is all that garbage doing in there? was that really the best they could come up with? there's just so much stuff in there that has abo****ely nothing to do with damage dealing at all.. and they dont have a defensive value either so why even put it in there?

The answers are kind of lack luster here, just like with the Sorc questions.

 

Sure 2.4 has an overall buff to tactics and an arguable buff to Assault, but the buffs are a bit too conservative whereas I feel they need to be more gamechanging so that Vanguards/Powertechs get taken more seriously in PvP and PvE.

Because the questions are more perceptive. These are really not very good questions imho...

Quoted on the thread for marauder questions discussion.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post

I think these are good questions. The overall strong PvP focus to all of them is quite welcome after my mostly PvE-justified questions. My only comment is that the phrasing should probably be made more compact. The Sorc and Vanguard questions this month were multiple paragraphs with stories, anecdotes, and more. I think that distracts from the main point of the question. Keep it simple and concise. Focus on the exact issue, give a bit of justification or exemplification, maybe make a suggestion, and ask (perhaps multiple) questions around that issue.

The first answer was a complete waste. They talked more about the other tanks than VG/PTs.

I'm somewhat amused that the first round of questions went so great, but the second round was as successful as a tie fighter pilot in an asteroid field. Future rounds of questions can only get better... right?

Once again, /trooperfacepalm

I agree with the sorc replies, at least for DPS. I know its a tough thing for a lot of people to hear, but the class really does have a very high skill cap. Players at the very top of the chart can do very, very well because their kiting, LOS, and positioning are very good. Players who are average or even above average will not do as well. To me, this is fine. Sorcs really are glass cannons which do so much damage that they need to be extremely squishy otherwise.

 

For healers, the answers are not good enough.

 

But this is not the place to discuss that.

I can't really speak to everything you said, since I don't have a sorc or a sage, but from what I do know, there are some player perception issues for both of these classes they responded to recently. There were a few comments in the Sorceror section that complained about DOTs being cleansed or cast times being an LOS problem, like those weren't issues for other DPS classes. I have to worry about LOS when channeling pretty much any of my good abilities on my Gunslinger, and other DOT specs have the same things to worry about as Sorcs (so it might be a question of how to help DOTs in the game--though of course not too much, because you do have to cleanse them and the classes that can cleanse them have to be ready and willing to cleanse them on teammates... and I know I've been brought down by DOTs plenty and hate fighting DOT classes on many of my channeling classes). And I've also often felt like people hate on DPS Vanguards far more than my experience with them justifies. I do pretty well with mine and don't really see why they're perceived as being so bad.

That, of course, doesn't mean they don't have issues, but players do have to keep in mind that in any MMO, not every DPS class can be the king of DPS classes, and not every Tank class can be king, either. The point should be keeping them in an acceptable range of each other and for players to stop needing to be FOTM on any class they play. I doubt players will ever be free of the latter, but any good dev team should be aware of it.

Not that I think these responses are all that great. One thing I wish the Vanguard questions had done (particularly number one), had compared skills qualitatively, rather than list them off, which allowed more of the brushoff answer. The question assumes that the reader appreciates the qualitative differences in those skills (and really, Stealth Scan is nothing like any Guardian skill listed), which is going to be an issue in any exchange like this. I know from reading other threads how Harpoon isn't really equivalent to Leap and how some Vanguards see it as weaker, but I wouldn't count on the devs appreciating that. Since I've been on the receiving end of both Harpoon and Leap, I can often see Harpoon as being more annoying, as it's putting me where the Vanguard or Pyro wants me to be, rather than them coming to where I want to be.

But regardless, the tone of the dev responses really does need some work, as well as their depth. You can easily see that the communities worked on these responses quite a bit (particularly when you think that this is a game for them, not their job), so they do deserve more depth about how the devs specifically see Vanguards and Sorcerors doing okay from their end, rather than assuming players can see what they're seeing (which many don't, as noted above).

With how things are working out, both sides need to work on their communication and their depth, I guess. I'm hoping that can be worked on, as I really do like this game and wish the players and devs worked together better.

everyone saying that we should calm down and present logical arguments instead of pages of perception problem:

have you not followed these forums or the pts ones since 2.0? have we not presented oodles of logical arguments, metrics, and examples of how the class is under performing? havent we tried being civil? the answer is yes. the reason we the gag is circulating is because obviously engaging in logical arguments doesnt work with the devs; they dont see the issues. so the sad thing is, the only way to make them aware of how wrong they are is to continuously ridicule them until they realize how stupid the answers and their train of thought is/was/will be

and anyone saying that the questions were worded poorly:

would it have mattered? nope. go check out the sorc questions. worded better, WORSE response.

I agree with the sorc replies, at least for DPS. I know its a tough thing for a lot of people to hear, but the class really does have a very high skill cap. Players at the very top of the chart can do very, very well because their kiting, LOS, and positioning are very good. Players who are average or even above average will not do as well. To me, this is fine. Sorcs really are glass cannons which do so much damage that they need to be extremely squishy otherwise.

 

For healers, the answers are not good enough.

 

But this is not the place to discuss that.

Wow, just wow.

I'm just going to go out and say it even if it is harsh:

These were terrible answers to these questions. Absolute trash.

In the first question you failed to address the fact that Vanguards currently have the worst defensive cooldowns in the game. The explanation that "oh their range makes up for it" is a cop out. Any smart melee class is just going to leap/pull/speed/slow the target vanguard, waltz right up to them, and kill them. Heavy armor makes little to no difference in the dps classes because the game is designed to where just about anything penetrates armor. Even when assault specialist had great burst the defensive cds were still trash. They were just covered up by the fact that most targets could be killed before we needed them.

On to the hybrid vs 36 point build

Assault plastique has never been useful in PVE. The extra Ion pulse damage will outperform a 15 second CD of that ability. Assault plastique was not useless in pvp (pre-2.0 due to burst). The nerf in 2.0 made it useless for anything. A slight buff in damage does nothing for PVP. Burnout being buffed? So what? You also failed to mention that because of the reduced energy requirement, IR was nerfed in damage. 36 point builds work for very few classes all around the game.

And finally your last answer. The buffs you have made to vanguard will simply make the TTK less. But isn't that why they were nerfed in the first place? The TTK was fast, but it needed to be fast so that the vanguard never had to rely on useless defensive cds. Now attempting to revert the class back to a weaker version of pre-2.0 is the solution? If reactive shield and adrenaline rush were simply buffed to do something besides delay death for 2 seconds, the class might work a bit better.

Intermediate state:

@Anyone who think players themself should have asked some good questions in order to make some improvement, u are very childish. Are u guys aware that you paid for this game? And then you have to finish their job? Really? Well, probably some ppl just have fun with that.

Very dirty.

Small remark for your reallife, in society: never let people tell u what u should have done. If you have no idea what to do in a new environment, just leave.