I honestly don´t care what the reason is , for protecting the 3D models .. even if they are trying to combat Pirate servers.

But seriously when this is hampering GAMEPLAY especially at endgame or Operations.

Get a grip and fix GAMEPLAY first .

Explains why I have to relog or quit game often , to just get decent gameplay .

Sorry but this is a major issue , especially when you have to interrupt npc healers.

Can´t wait for rendering to be OK status before the interrupt happens.

Honestly no wonder a lot of people just quit , cause it has nothing to do with skills lag or anything but with stupid system created to slow down responses .

*Puts thin-foil hat*

I don't know enough to have idea is there any truth in this but what I'm seeing is that there is definitely problem with many ppl together in this game and thats why every zone/planet is so heavily instanced. There is something very wrong with their engine on that front and they try to hide it behind wait times for mobs spawns when many ppl are in the same area. thats why i don't expect they ever have reasonable answer why Fleet is caped at 250 ppl when there are no spans to wait for and plenty of room for 2x or even 3x 250. Its very clear that the problem is not about players' experience quality but engine issue.

*Forgets to take off thin-foil hat*

I honestly don´t care what the reason is , for protecting the 3D models .. even if they are trying to combat Pirate servers.

 

But seriously when this is hampering GAMEPLAY especially at endgame or Operations.

Get a grip and fix GAMEPLAY first .

 

Explains why I have to relog or quit game often , to just get decent gameplay .

Sorry but this is a major issue , especially when you have to interrupt npc healers.

Can´t wait for rendering to be OK status before the interrupt happens.

 

Honestly no wonder a lot of people just quit , cause it has nothing to do with skills lag or anything but with stupid system created to slow down responses .

Honestly we don't know for sure yet that it is, but what we do know is VERY suggestive.

It's not like there's much in the game keeping me engaged. It's more a pity re-subscription with blind hope for future improvement.

come shut your....this is a great game i love it!and a lot do too if you are bored go troll wow gees!it just need a lot of elbo grease and effort!

so nobody know if this game need differential compression activated?dam!

Just so I know you guys understand what "rendering" is.

Rendering is the creation of an image from a data based 3D model.

If you're suggesting that some of that is being done server side and then streamed to your 3D engine, then I'm afraid that's flawed.

I'll explain why.

To bring the two images together, the streamed image, let's say my Jedi Knight has to be superimposed into the 3D gfx card rendered image. Getting the two images synced up, given the nature of internet lags and spikes, would be almost impossible.

Why would the images need to be synced up perfectly?

Because if you are superimposing pre rendered models onto the scene, they wouldn't cast shadows or light up the environment with lightsabers. Which means they'd need to have a local proxy model on your PC, which was 3d accurate, along with its associated light sources.

Both the model and the pre-rendered image would have to be in the same place at the same time all the time. Or it would be easily apparent.

The other thing to remember, is a pre rendered image superimposed onto a 3d scene, would also need z-buffer information, for occlusion, which again would have the effect, if it went out of sync, of things not dissapearing behind other things.

Also anyone who'd played with 3D vision would have noticed it straight away.

In summary, whatever it is that this remote renderer call is doing, it isn't pre-rendering images on a server and streaming them to us.

And we need this topic OPEN, so no bs in replies please

I think you quoted the wrong person.

Are you sure of this?

Yes i'm sure. I have fps enabled (Shift+Ctrl+F) and I watch it all the time.

Let me just give you an example. I enter a room kill al the mobs in it, go to the elevator for reaching the top level, the elevator comes down, and it's all blurred with extremely low textures.

I look at my fps .. 55 .. look at the elevator ... still blurry ... 0.5s passes, elevator gains quality textures .. look at my fps ... 54.

And i've tested this numerous times already.

if bio is readin this thread could you tell us if swtor need remote differetial compression (microsoft thingy that a lot of us gamer deactivated!)

ty

Just so I know you guys understand what "rendering" is.

 

Rendering is the creation of an image from a data based 3D model.

 

If you're suggesting that some of that is being done server side and then streamed to your 3D engine, then I'm afraid that's flawed.

 

I'll explain why.

 

To bring the two images together, the streamed image, let's say my Jedi Knight has to be superimposed into the 3D gfx card rendered image. Getting the two images synced up, given the nature of interenet lags and spikes, would be almost impossible.

 

Why would the images need to be synced up perfectly?

 

Because if you are superimposging pre rendered models onto the scene, they wouldn't cast shadows or light up the environment with lightsabers. Which means they'd need to have a local proxy model on your PC, which was 3d accurate, along with its associated light sources.

 

Both the model and the pre-rendered image would have to be in the same place at the same time all the time. Or it would be easily apparent.

 

The other thing to remember, is a pre rendered image superimposed onto a 3d scene, would also need z-buffer information, for occlusion, which again would have the effect, if it went out of sync, of things not dissapearing behind other things.

 

Also anyone who'd played with 3D vision would have noticed it straight away.

 

In summary, whatever it is that this remote renderer call is doing, it isn't pre-rendering images on a server and streaming them to us.

...You should try reading that research paper I linked. It talks about myriad ways to do just that.

And if the 'server' is the second process, the latency, other than network latency, would be relatively minimal and it could also be integrated quite tightly with the actual client's primary rendering.

Difficult, but possible. The difficult explaining the performance hit.

Honestly, I'd really prefer it if someone could provide a proper explanation as to what this 'remoterenderer' and the second client actually DO, so we don't have to sit here and speculate.

What models are they "protecting"? I haven't seen anything worth stealing.

It's a corporation. They just 'do.' Often without thinking 'why?'

Yes i'm sure. I have fps enabled (Shift+Ctrl+F) and I watch it all the time.

 

Let me just give you an example. I enter a room kill al the mobs in it, go to the elevator for reaching the top level, the elevator comes down, and it's all blurred with extremely low textures.

I look at my fps .. 55 .. look at the elevator ... still blurry ... 0.5s passes, elevator gains quality textures .. look at my fps ... 54.

 

And i've tested this numerous times already.

You actually see this in a lot of games when the engine changes from a distant LoD to the high quality textures. I noticed this very often in swtor, but games like GTA have this to.

I think it has to do with the loading of the different texture layers like normal maps and so on.

I do not know if there is usually a FPS lag involved.

Just my 2 cents.

It's a corporation. They just 'do.' Often without thinking 'why?'

touche'

So basically we're now finding out that EAware has decided to be the first and only company in history to use DRM in an mmo? Frakkin' figures.

And if this DRM/remote rendering/whatever means that my bandwidth usage gets exponentially increased because the game has to constantly stream crap to my computer, I WILL be unsubscribing simply because I'm not going to feed EAware $15 a month and give them the right to use up my bandwidth for their stupid system on top of it.

In fact, I really want to know if there is noticeably higher bandwidth usage compared to other mmos because many people do have bandwidth caps to contend with.

HOLY CRAP!!

And just today there is an article posted on Massively where Bioware basically says the issue is with the crappy computers that the players are using.

Oh man...Bioware has taken a stance to handle themselves like SOE. This is bad bad bad.

I think you quoted the wrong person.

You're right sir, the answer was for Lienwyn

I'm sorry Deamor

Honestly we don't know for sure yet that it is, but what we do know is VERY suggestive.

Sorry last couple days , I just given up on the highlevel areas , but even in 30+ zone or fighting Champions , having damage and heals go into limbo

Cause of such system it is crap , reminds me of wow classic indeed .

But seriously this is 2012 , and 7 years of development time , enough time or people out there how they solved it .

Cause it is seriously stupid , to do 150% of damage to a boss , knowing that 50% will dissapear into limbo . no wonder I couldn´t figure out why I couldn´t do operations or high end game instances in the US servers but same thing are happening on EU servers.

7 people need to be OK clarified for rendering and then data transmitted to servers then OK again by the client 2 times .. gee talk about lag .

No wonder open beta was so smooth or the low level zone is so smooth .

But the high level zones still are a mess .

mal!i got to say .5 second is about close to the timing ms love to use in windows(400 ms,or .4 s)is normally their default .i always adjust those to 85 ms sincer human cant notice difference bellow 85 ms(.085 s)

this is one part of the equation but it doesnt really relate to the trouble everybody is having

i wouldnt bother too much with it but it does make it noticable via that way but once their issue is fixed (it probably is on the security side check us howe much we get issue if firewall is acting up because of something bad on the net,it could also be l3 area (aion and wwow and eq had that issue they had to comunicate with them to resolve the issue and it was a third party gate that didnt recon them and the server had to reroute data to area unable to cope with said traffic!ha good old days of gaming are coming to freaking haunt us each time a new title is out!

You actually see this in a lot of games when the engine changes from a distant LoD to the high quality textures. I noticed this very often in swtor, but games like GTA have this to.

I think it has to do with the loading of the different texture layers like normal maps and so on.

I do not know if there is usually a FPS lag involved.

Just my 2 cents.

Mass Effect was prone to it as well: Normally what happens is that it loads a lower quality 'placeholder' environment that comes up faster while the slower-loading high detail environment is coming up: helps mitigate the effect of things suddenly 'popping up' out of nowhere, which is especially disconcerting when what pops up is the GROUND.

GTA IV had a lot of problems managing this properly, as it tended to switch things RIGHT ON TOP OF YOU down to low detail suddenly and for no reason at all. They'd sometimes flicker back and forth between low detail and high, which is odd.

So basically we're now finding out that EAware has decided to be the first and only company in history to use DRM in an mmo? Frakkin' figures.

 

And if this DRM/remote rendering/whatever means that my bandwidth usage gets exponentially increased because the game has to constantly stream crap to my computer, I WILL be unsubscribing simply because I'm not going to feed EAware $15 a month and give them the right to use up my bandwidth for their stupid system on top of it.

 

In fact, I really want to know if there is noticeably higher bandwidth usage compared to other mmos because many people do have bandwidth caps to contend with.

I don't have any proof, just speculation, but it fits with the observed facts too well for my liking. It could be, and if so it appears to be DRM aimed more at preventing private servers than anything.

HOLY CRAP!!

 

And just today there is an article posted on Massively where Bioware basically says the issue is with the crappy computers that the players are using.

 

Oh man...Bioware has taken a stance to handle themselves like SOE. This is bad bad bad.

It's bad if the OP is in fact correct. I think the OP was right to ask the question, but I'm not sure we should be taking this as fact.

I'm not bashing the OP here, I think this is definitely something that requires more exploration or indeed a response from BioWare.

I'm not too au fait with all these things but surely if this was true, wouldn't everyone be experiencing the issues that some are talking about? Or, what could cause some people to experience the issues whilst others don't?

I must admit I have spent almost 2 hours reading through this thread, - and trying, to understand the paper you link to in the OP. - Which is really way beyond my grasp, but when Im hearing someone explain how his fps remains stable while the world is loading, and how his game renders low resolution for a short while in a new area, till the game kinda "catches" up, I can 100% recognise the experience. I just didnt really know what to file that under before.

My cpu has been running so hot playing swtor, when it was completely fine during beta. I couldnt understand what had happened to it. It went fine with Skyrim, and the other mmo I play, which is EVE on high res, and so - not having much pc savyness I couldnt figure out what made Swtor special. - I understand now that it is very cpu intensive, and I am understanding now, why my cpu will run swtor at 45C when Im fighting mobs alone, but shoot up to 58-60C in imperial fleet when Im standing at the galactic trade hub with 30 people around me. - And this is after I pulled the cpu fan out and reapplied thermal paste to it. - Before that, my cpu almost cooked itself. And this came out of the blue.

There wasnt any warning from BW that they had changed the client somehow, and that the resolution while being low/when you think its medium, also demanded so much more out of my cpu. I think it would have been nice if they had been open about this.

Firstly, because as this thread and others show, where there be geeks, there be no secrets.

And secondly; as MMO developers BW should have realised that, and tried to spin it so we knew what to expect and why. We didnt have to agree with what they were doing, but not being honest about something that affects out gameplay and hardware this much, is not making any sense at all.

BW marketed the game using high res imagery, which is no longer available in gameplay, apart I think for the cutscenes. Is that a reasonable buisness method. If you lure someone in with a shiny product, - which is then lackluster as you get home with it?

At the very least, its too shady to allow them to retain any kind of AA rating in this particular genre.

Wether you be a fan or not, I dont see how anyone can argue that it makes sense from a buisness point of view to so thoroughly downgrade the graphics of a game which was marketed showing high res graphics. How can anyone spin that in a positive way.

...You should try reading that research paper I linked. It talks about myriad ways to do just that.

 

And if the 'server' is the second process, the latency, other than network latency, would be relatively minimal and it could also be integrated quite tightly with the actual client's primary rendering.

 

Difficult, but possible. The difficult explaining the performance hit.

 

Honestly, I'd really prefer it if someone could provide a proper explanation as to what this 'remoterenderer' and the second client actually DO, so we don't have to sit here and speculate.

nope using ssd and i got same stop at about 26 to to 28% mark for about 5 second like it is waiting for an autorisation fro ea/bio server and the time is because bio lost the autorisation(dramatising but it is how it looks like ,once the autorisation is done smooth as butter load fast!

Or, what could cause some people to experience the issues whilst others don't?

My money goes on the bandwidth.

It's bad if the OP is in fact correct. I think the OP was right to ask the question, but I'm not sure we should be taking this as fact.

 

I'm not bashing the OP here, I think this is definitely something that requires more exploration or indeed a response from BioWare.

 

I'm not too au fait with all these things but surely if this was true, wouldn't everyone be experiencing the issues that some are talking about? Or, what could cause some people to experience the issues whilst others don't?

My thinking exactly, oddly enough. I'm pretty much of a pure hardware tech myself, my understanding of the technical details of all software-based nonsense this is fairly shallow, so I can't really explore it much myself.

What I'd really like is some hard data to help clarify the speculation, or better yet make it moot.

We don't KNOW anything yet, we only GUESS.