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Guide to PVP Full Gunny post 1.6

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Commando / Mercenary
Guide to PVP Full Gunny post 1.6

Kitru's Avatar


Kitru
01.07.2013 , 09:00 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by wishihadaname View Post
1) I never claimed that this works in rateds. I don't play rated. Ever.
Right away, that's going to eat into your credibility. If you never do RWZs, you're never really going up against groups that are both organized and effective. Saying that you know how people can be effective at playing Commando but never do RWZs is like claiming that Scoundrel DPS is *amazing* even if you're going to be largely worthless in anything beyond tier 1 ops content. Pretty much any class can have passable performance in standard WZs, mainly because most people have no clue what they're doing, are painfully disorganized such that everyone is off doing their own thing, or they simply don't care enough to actually play at a high level.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Fende View Post
Listen to Kitru. Kitru knows all.

wishihadaname's Avatar


wishihadaname
01.07.2013 , 09:37 AM | #12
Its nice to see the thread has actually gone somewhere and i'm getting some constructive feedback on my suggestions.

Couple more points

-I wasn't talking about Jug armor debuffs. Those are not removable. However, marauders have deadly throw and crippling slash which are their slows and healing debuffs. These can be cleansed and should always be. Snipers have shatter shot which breaks armor and debuffs healing. This can also be cleansed and must be.

-If a Jug has unstoppable he does not have force crush. This means that, although you will eat the first smash, he won't be able to get another one off on you since his only means of building shockwave is with force choke, and you can break + interrupt to deny him that. Hybrid smash jugs are NOT scary. They are also trivial to kite.

-There are only 2 slows in the game that we can't counter. Sages/shadows force slow, and smashers force crush. Force crush I always blow my breaker on, as for the shadows slow, that I don't have tactic against and usually just end up ignoring. Didn't say I knew everything. For those that didn't know, snipers/operatives roots can be cleansed, and ravage is countered with cryo nade or concussive charge.

-Also: don't be so quick to dismiss my credibility because I don't play ranked. For those of you who are on Jedi Covenant, you probably know how rampant our premade problem is. There are 2 guilds in particular that roll multiple ranked level teams into the pug que every night. Specifically Lethal/Midichlorian Dose 50 and Uncensored. Between those 2 guilds, i've had more than my share of fighting max geared, voice coordinated, 8 man premades, who mark targets, focus fire, and honestly have no place in the pug que. I'll refrain from going on about how LD50 ruins all pug pvp when they get on, but suffice to say that I have played against the best and attempting to survive those games is how I come up with most of my tactics. (As a side note: none of those teams use commandoes or mercs, ever. So I suppose that's a point towards the naysayers.)
-Dimitri Dolohov, lvl 55 Lethality OP. Toxic personality (Retired until viable again)
-Sgt. Amit Dolohov, lvl 55 Gunny Mando,. Rifle wielding hipster.
I'de rather lose a real fight than win via premade.

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
01.07.2013 , 12:27 PM | #13
Quote:
I never claimed that this works in rateds. I don't play rated. Ever. I don't do so because i'm not in a major PVP guild and the rated que on my server is dominated by a few unbeatable premades who mainly play in house. I also don't play rated because commandoes are, even when played well, near the bottom of the totem pole for active mitigation and defense, which are arguably the most important things for a dps class in rated games. That said, there is nothing forcing you to play rated warzones.
As Kitru says, this hurts your credibility. Most of us know how to get decent performances in normal warzones. I didn't stop PVPing on my Commando because I never did well. I stopped because my shadow did it all so much better.

Also it's not active mitigation and defense that are our problem. Realistically VG DPS doesn't have much more
active defense than we do (one 2s AoE stun is nice, but it's not what separates us). It's high burst, preferably with little setup required and hard to counter that is the hallmark of PVP DPS, which is why Pyro PTs, Smash Juggs, and Combat Sents (and Smash Sents I suppose) rule the day. If you're a solo queuer (which your post about a premade problem seems to indicate) I can see why you'd think mitigation is what matters. It ain't.


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Shoot and scoot DOES work against every class except very well played assassins. You just have to change it up depending on the situation.
Example: Worst case derpsmashing Jug scenario. You get jumped by a jug at max health with all cooldowns and 4 stacks of shockwave. IF you are quick and punt him before he smashes (so within 1.5 seconds worth of GCD between the leap and the next move), this is a winnable fight. After the punt you follow the standard rotation. FA + 2 gravs while he closes. If he's good he'll use his 10m gap closer and smash. Turn on your shield + stim before this, cancel the gravs if you have to. The first smash is only going to hit for 45% of its max of 8k so worst case scenario is a <4k hit. Big whoop. His next move will probably be force crush. Use your breaker to break the slow, stock strike him in the face, and scoot out of range to get your 2 gravs off leaving him with a sticky nade to ponder while you do so. If he force chokes you as you try to run, you eat it but your shield is still on so you can afford to screw up the first scoot attempt. The cooldown on force crush is relatively long. Once he closes again pop your medpack and continue trying to dps him for the next 5s until the next time you can shoot and scoot. If he tries to ravage, use the cryo nade. If he breaks it, use tech override + concussive round and heal yourself to full or just run away. Assuming the worst case scenario: you tried to scoot but got choked or pushed. If pushed then don't worry, he just gave you a free pass to run away since he is still rooted and can't leap. If chocked, eat it (no other option), and then start casting a heal. He will either blow his interrupt, or push. If he interrupts, spam gravs. If he pushes depending on whether he is still rooted or not you can either cast a few instants and prepare to get leaped (though he won't have his shockwave stacks so no smash just yet), or just run away and live to fight another day. The basic point is that there are always options. And when all else fails you can annoy the living hell out of any derpsmasher by pillar humping. Nothing enrages them like chasing a "free" kill for a minute and a half.
Remember that in a worst case scenario both your shield and adrenal are on cooldown =P

Listen you're conceding him 4 stacks of singularity whatever you do, I'd save the breaker for the choke since you can't do anything during that. Even slowed you can get out of melee range in the short time you have, and do something, and if he gets his stacks early he's going to be tempted to blow the smash while the adrenal is still running. Also if they're letting you get two gravs off then they're a bad player. Period. If you toss a sticky, the first grav is going to break the root even if you cast it immediately. Once they aren't rooted, they can leap.

Also if you threw a sticky he definitely should push you. The sticky will break the root and he can leap immediately (since you kindly just broke his root with sticky. The damage lands after the lockout.) Also choke lasts three seconds so if you're eating it he doesn't have long to worry about the root anyway, so if he pushes he'll leap to you before you get off the ground.

He could also Awe you, and he has a spammable slow. Methinks you play too many FotM juggs.

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There are counters to every counter, but it doesn't mean were helpless. The shoot and scoot tactic is just one that we can use. Tech override + concussive round is another though it requires us to make sure we first make our opponent waste their breaker. I've 1v1ed fully geared scoundrels and smashers to a standstill before. I've also been horrifically butchered by those same people under different circumstances. I'm not saying were top of the pile, I know were not. But enough with the doom and gloom already, it really not that bad.
Counters to every counter but we'll run out of counters before they do, and that's the problem. It really is that bad. Also 1v1ing to a standstill isn't something to really brag about. I'm going to preach doom and gloom till they fix it. Commando is every bit as bad as the pessimist say it is. It's cute that you wanna make the best of a bad situation, but lets not pretend there's some magic bullet to making it not suck. BW needs to fix it.

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If you know about other classes tricks, you can work around them. Example: When a shadow starts glowing, turn on defenses and start healing or using FA because nothing else will work and its a waste of time and GCD's to try. That glowie bubble is not that long and I've never met a shadow that could do significant damage to me in those 6 seconds while I was in max defense mode (stim + shield + self heals).
Healing isn't going to work, they'll just interrupt you. Also at best their cooldowns vs your cooldowns becomes sort of a wash. Then it's back to who can outdamage who, and they're going to win that game.

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-Carnage marauders are a joke. Stop ravage and you more or less win especially if you got the first shot. Ravage is stopped with concussive charge or cryo nade. Don't let them walk up to you or else the fight gets much harder. (field awareness again).
Again this is a symptom of facing bad Carnage Marauders. They actually have a TON of tools, and if they lose to you they're a superbad. True Gore > Ravage > Force Scream is their big hitter, but do NOT underestimate the power of PS > Blade Rush > Blade Rush > Blade Storm > Blade Rush x4 when they have 30 stacks of centering. To do so would be a huge mistake. It's Remember Ravage is something you only have to worry about like every 28 seconds. They aren't being idle the rest of the time.

Also if you have a hope in hell of beating them I'd save Cryo/Concussion Round for Undying Rage (if they break the Cryo, then they just let you Concussion Round them. Use your knockback to stop Ravage always. The cooldowns are about the same, so save it for this purpose specifically. You'll be far enough away they won't be able to Blade Storm (Force Scream) for 5k+. They'd have to leap back and by that time their PS will have worn off. Either way a mara should never let you have the first shot. If you're being left to free cast that's a different story, but don't doubt that a good one is going to put you in the dirt 100% of the time unless you catch him at very low health and no cooldowns. A bad one who can't take full advantage of all that utility? Different story of course.

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-Infiltration shadows are squishy as hell. They have 6 seconds of decent defense coming out of stealth but can be CC'ed through 4 of those with a cryo nade, stock strike root, or knockback.
12 seconds. 6 seconds after exiting stealth, and then another 6 whenever they choose since exiting stealth resets the cooldown on blackout. If they combat stealth for the purposes of using Spike/Spinning Kick then that will be 12 more seconds (6 of it at their leisure) of 25% DR and massive Force Regen Rate, so they will do it. Stock strike root isn't going to do much against them given their plethora of 10m skills (if they're running the 0/27/14 hybrid they can hit you at 30m with Death Field/Force in Balance as well), or they can just stop you from running with Low Slash (it's a short cooldown), and God help you if they get you while your back is turned cause then you probably just gave them a free buffed Maul/Shadowstrike. It takes some practice so if there's people trying it out they won't be good at it, but the good Infiltration or Infiltration Hybrids will be very good at not being as squishy as you'd hope. In 24 seconds they can make your life very very miserable.

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on the same note: most shadows won't have their force speed up by the time you stock strike root them because they almost always blow it after getting punted. If they don't then they eat an FA + slow + gravs. The really good ones will either vanish or use their resistance. But those can also be countered if youre quick and have your cooldowns up.
You conceded above that shadows were the ones the tactic didn't work so well on. Full Infiltration Shadows are the most melee dependent in my opinion, but even then they can drop an easy 10-15k as you run, especially if Force Potency is up. The Hybrid tank specs all have force pull and are more comfortable fighting at 10m

I'd save my vanish. Hell only an idiot would vanish while they're rooted against a commando.

Losing to shadows isn't a sign of class weakness. They're a really freaking good dueling class.

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The armor debuffs that marauders and snipers use (not sure of the name), can be removed with cleanses. And trying to fight a lethality OP or sniper head on won't work because it takes 2 cleanses to fully remove their DOTs, and they will be able to cull before you can cleanse twice. You have to LOS them long enough to use 2 cleanses.
Terminology correction. I wouldn't classify Sent/Mara debuffs as "armor debuffs". That term is reserved for debuffs which actually negate your armor, like Juggs, Snipers, and Commandos can do.

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If a Jug has unstoppable he does not have force crush. This means that, although you will eat the first smash, he won't be able to get another one off on you since his only means of building shockwave is with force choke, and you can break + interrupt to deny him that. Hybrid smash jugs are NOT scary. They are also trivial to kite.
Most unequivocally true thing you've said this whole thread.

That being said don't depend on having your CC break up. That long cooldown is nasty. Still you're right. Unstoppable on a smash jugg makes me breath a little easier.

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Also: don't be so quick to dismiss my credibility because I don't play ranked. For those of you who are on Jedi Covenant, you probably know how rampant our premade problem is. There are 2 guilds in particular that roll multiple ranked level teams into the pug que every night. Specifically Lethal/Midichlorian Dose 50 and Uncensored. Between those 2 guilds, i've had more than my share of fighting max geared, voice coordinated, 8 man premades, who mark targets, focus fire, and honestly have no place in the pug que. I'll refrain from going on about how LD50 ruins all pug pvp when they get on, but suffice to say that I have played against the best and attempting to survive those games is how I come up with most of my tactics. (As a side note: none of those teams use commandoes or mercs, ever. So I suppose that's a point towards the naysayers.)
Keep in mind that just facing the top ranked PVP guild on your server doesn't mean everything. Normals is where players like that will start trying out goofy specs just for a change because it doesn't matter. Gear and Voice Chat will carry the day. They'll also just in general focus less, and they aren't always, or even often, gonna have all 8 on their team. An NBA team who goes and plays a pickup game is still gonna beat most anyone they go against, but that doesn't mean they're going to play like they would when it actually matters. Normals are often a chance to cut back.

I appreciate your willingness to try to make the best of a bad class, I really do. I admire anyone who decides to tough it out, and people prove again and again they can do well in normals. Ranked is where even the best players admit we just don't have much of a place though.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd