Since it's not a spoiler what rank the Trooper ends up in the end (since most Troopers have that rank title over their heads on the fleet), I feel safe with the following question: Why does the Republic Army promote the leader of a 6-man squad to Major? Does that make any sense?

In the real military world, the notion of that is completely ridiculous. But I'm wondering if there's something in the established lore of the Star Wars universe that helps this make sense? Normally (again, real world) a unit that small is not even commanded by an officer, let alone a major.

Also, why does the Trooper take orders straight from a general? I have a hard time imagining a general with the kind of galactic-level responsibility of Garza taking time out of her busy schedule to give operational briefings to a leiutenant, a captain, or even a major, even if that lesser officer is the commander of an elite special forces team. With a real world understanding of the military, I'm having a hard time suspending my disbelief when it comes to this apparent command and control structure.

Any ideas with this? Or should I just accept it and not worry about it making no sense?

As a former marine, yeah i get that. Hell i worked in a 6 man team and the highest rank was a Sgt. Lts are incharge of platoons and such.

But taking orders from a general. that usually doesn't happen cept for VERY special cases. usually she'd just dictate orders to another officer like a Capt-Colonel who'd brief you.

Again...you're not totally crazy but on the other hand....

Why does the Republic Army promote the leader of a 6-man squad to Major? Does that make any sense? Also, why does the Trooper take orders straight from a general?

 

Any ideas with this?

Pretty much every question can be answered, "Because of 'Special Forces Division'," Which Garza co-founded and is in command of.

SpecForce operates outside of traditional rules, structures, and guidelines, meaning the Trooper storyline can keep all the 'military' business without being bogged down by the 'military' business. As for why they use the specific rankings that the Republic Army uses, I'd imagine its so that when a SpecForce squad is sent to cooperate with non SpecForce forces, there isn't some weird void in the chain of command.

Pretty much every question can be answered, "Because of 'Special Forces Division'," Which Garza co-founded and is in command of.

 

SpecForce operates outside of traditional rules, structures, and guidelines, meaning the Trooper storyline can keep all the 'military' business without being bogged down by the 'military' business. As for why they use the specific rankings that the Republic Army uses, I'd imagine its so that when a SpecForce squad is sent to cooperate with non SpecForce forces, there isn't some weird void in the chain of command.

But think about it, she's in charge of MULTIPLE SF squads. She doesn't direct single squads alone. She would have multiple deputies, analysts, information experts and such, a COMMAND team. She'd get the intel, ask who was available with the best qualifications, tell who she wants and leave it to the team to carry it out. She'd be a tad busy to actually do day to day operations like that.

She'd have an operations officer or to who do the briefings like in a real chain of command, even in RL Spec Forces.

I mean i guess you could have a Major incharge of a team, hell a Lt Commander which is a Major leads 6-12 man S.E.A.L. Teams.

But think about it, she's in charge of MULTIPLE SF squads. She doesn't direct single squads alone. She would have multiple deputies, analysts, information experts and such, a COMMAND team. She'd get the intel, ask who was available with the best qualifications, tell who she wants and leave it to the team to carry it out. She'd be a tad busy to actually do day to day operations like that.

Well, here's something to consider. The Trooper is part of Havoc Squad, which is viewed as the greatest of all the special forces. You could say they are the most elite soldiers in the specforces, and possibly the most elite soldiers in the entire republic military aside from Garza herself.

It's true that some suspension of disbelief is still necessary, but I don't think it's entirely surprising for the trooper to receive all orders from Garza.

even the best Spec Forces team in the US doesn't take their orders directly from Spec For CO. Never works that way unless it's a VERY high priority and there is little to no time, or it's a suicide mission.

usually even top jobs, the orders are passed down by an enlisted man or a lower level officer. It's not normal for EVERY mission to be handed down by the CO of Spec For. Now the whole reason behind chapter two, yeah i can see taking orders from the CO of SF and the other person who happens to show up, that's the time when you'd be dealing with the General.

All other missions, yes high priority, but doesn't need the CO of SF to brief you every time.

even the best Spec Forces team in the US doesn't take their orders directly from Spec For CO. Never works that way unless it's a VERY high priority and there is little to no time, or it's a suicide mission.

 

usually even top jobs, the orders are passed down by an enlisted man or a lower level officer. It's not normal for EVERY mission to be handed down by the CO of Spec For. Now the whole reason behind chapter two, yeah i can see taking orders from the CO of SF and the other person who happens to show up, that's the time when you'd be dealing with the General.

 

All other missions, yes high priority, but doesn't need the CO of SF to brief you every time.

Well, I think for chapter 1 it also fits because iirc Garza wants to keep the whole [thing] as secret as possible.

I asked myself the same questions and the only answer I came up with is that the guy who wrote the scenario never worked in the military and did not do any research before writing his story (as a good writer/ scenarist would do. Always research your subject in depth to increase immersion of your readers with true to life details).

That's why, eventhough the trooper story had good moments, for me it's not as great as it could have been.

Since it's not a spoiler what rank the Trooper ends up in the end (since most Troopers have that rank title over their heads on the fleet), I feel safe with the following question: Why does the Republic Army promote the leader of a 6-man squad to Major? Does that make any sense?

 

In the real military world, the notion of that is completely ridiculous. But I'm wondering if there's something in the established lore of the Star Wars universe that helps this make sense? Normally (again, real world) a unit that small is not even commanded by an officer, let alone a major.

 

Also, why does the Trooper take orders straight from a general? I have a hard time imagining a general with the kind of galactic-level responsibility of Garza taking time out of her busy schedule to give operational briefings to a leiutenant, a captain, or even a major, even if that lesser officer is the commander of an elite special forces team. With a real world understanding of the military, I'm having a hard time suspending my disbelief when it comes to this apparent command and control structure.

 

Any ideas with this? Or should I just accept it and not worry about it making no sense?

First, Star Wars is not real life. Never try to inject real life into a fantasy setting (and NEVER inject physics into a anime, it causes a cat-girl to die!).

Second, the Republic military is NOT the US or ANY known Earth military (at best it is kind of like the British military around the time of the British Empire and World War 1, and a little as the Aliies in World War 2 as below). The Republic military has a galaxy wide Army, Navy, Special Forces, Military Intelligence, ect. and then most planets or sectors have their own military (Army, Navy, Special Forces, ect). The Republic military has no "non-commisioned officers vs officer school graduate officers" (Sergeants vs Lieutenants and up). It appears that all military personell recieve the same basic training and if deemed worthy of promotion to the rank of officer recieve it (if they recieve additional training or if they all have basic leadership training is unknown).

The Republic military leadership is not very cut and dry and therfor does not have the simplicity that the US military does (it could be compared to the Aliies of World War 2). The Republic militray lacks the US military's central authority and cohesion. Republic military personell deemed important could be given higher ranking to ensure that it is less likely an officer not directly affiliated with that persons direct command cannot as easily "pull rank" and hijack or derail a mission (much like how Eisenhower was made a 5 Star General, even though the rank didnt actually exist before then, so he could use his special rank to keep the other military leaders in line). By putting a General in charge of the Special Forces, Garza could not be "comandeered" for the use of some far-flung military. And by giving Havoc Squad an officer of significant rank also allows him/her more authority to put the squads resources where felt to be best, and if need be comandeer local military personell.

Well, I think for chapter 1 it also fits because iirc Garza wants to keep the whole [thing] as secret as possible.

even then you wouldn't see that. watch the movie "Act of Valor" That S.E.A.L. team couldn't of been more covert if they tried doing ops in MEXICO of all places. They didn't get their Op order from the commander of S.E.A.Ls. No they got their mission from the Senior Chief who was the interrogator.

And when they got re-directed into mexico, they got their mission from i think the CO or XO on the ship they were stationed on, and another time they got their briefing from a Navy Intel LT.

Never once did i see a Admiral/General give them their op orders.

I mean in chapter 1, i could see Garza welcoming them in and sitting in on the briefing and then offer in her 2 cents, but doing the op order herself, sorry, that was ALL WRONG.

Well in games or even films writers usually have no idea about ranks and military structure and for some reason don't do research on it (as someone already mentioned). Even more viable reason is that the huge majority of players / audience have very little or no knowledge of military ranks and structures either. So they just throw in a few ranks that most people have heard before (General, Major, Captain). I am surprised they even used Lieutenant.

Also what bothers me about Star Wars are Imperial (or Republic) rank insignia. They just throw in some random insignia that makes no sense in relation to ranks, does not follow any logical system and is not consistent between the episodes. Again, majority will never notice or pay attention to it but some of us gets annoyed by it.

the point of gaza ordering havoc squad, well she seems like a woman who likes to control things so it may be that she has a hard time of delegating.

as for rank its to different in star wars, i mean look at the jedi they are given the rank of general which if im wrong is equal to admiral in the royal navy yet jedi can order admirals in the republic fleet.

@ Captain_Lurker: I'm going to have to reject pretty much everything you said, but I will try to do so nicely

On the issue of not injecting real life - there already is real life injected. They don't use made up ranks, they use ranks that correlate to the real world. Additionally, the order of those ranks is not made up, but rather fits a real world perspective, where officers go from Lt to Capt to Maj, etc. Otherwise, Captains would be Generals and Generals would be Sergeants. Real life is already there. What we are trying to determine is how much real life should we be concerned about, or just how analogous the Republic Army is to the real world one. It already is somewhat analogous, so saying that we should not inject real life into the fantasy setting is, sorry, dumb. It's already there.

Second, how do you know that the Republic military does not have an officer school? Are you basing that on the fact that the Trooper gets promoted from an enlisted rank to an officer rank without attending an officer school? I admit that one really required me to suspend disbelief, but here's how I did: battlefield promotions have historically enabled enlisted men rise up to officer ranks. Normally a battlefield promotion requires a degree of urgency (ie. can't wait for an officer to be trained, or can't wait for an officer from somewhere else to be reassigned here), and that was distinctly missing in the Trooper's case. Maybe you're right, that there is no officer school. But I'd need to at least see some kind of wookiepedia link validating the lack of an officer school as being established somewhere in the chaos that is the EU. Otherwise, this is another assumption of yours that must be rejected.

Your next point seems to be that the Republic military does not have a central authority. Again, this must be rejected. Just because the entity is called a "republic" does not mean it's military is some kind of United Nations peacekeeping force. Central authority stems from the Galactic Senate and the Supreme Chancellor. I agree it's confusing when member worlds of the Republic retain individuals who look and act like soverign leaders, but it's best to think of them as analogous to American state Governors, not as soverign heads of nation-states.

Finally, I lied. There IS something about your post I do not reject. In stating that Havoc squads members' high-rank allows them to unilaterally commandeer local forces, I think you make an adequate point. In the real world, that sort of squad is a paramilitary outfit with a "do whatever you want and make the military boys do what you say" slip signed by the president. In the game, though, we see in multiple interactions with the SIS that they seem to rely on Republic military assets to do the dirty work, and I guess Garza's SpecForces division sort of fills the niche of a paramilitary squad without the ambiguities of the "para" part of the term.

Finally, I lied. There IS something about your post I do not reject. In stating that Havoc squads members' high-rank allows them to unilaterally commandeer local forces, I think you make an adequate point. In the real world, that sort of squad is a paramilitary outfit with a "do whatever you want and make the military boys do what you say" slip signed by the president. In the game, though, we see in multiple interactions with the SIS that they seem to rely on Republic military assets to do the dirty work, and I guess Garza's SpecForces division sort of fills the niche of a paramilitary squad without the ambiguities of the "para" part of the term.

Having been in the Signals Intel field, you stating that SIS which IMO is the same as having the US National Security Agency and Central Intelligence Agency all rolled into 1, you don't think they use military assets to do the dirty work?

As Qui-gon told Obi-wan "You have much to learn padawan". Intelligence agenices almost ALWAYS call in US Special forces to do the dirty work. If you think CIA agents are all like James Bond and they do their own dirty work most times, you are nuts. Usually CIA or NSA depending finds the intel, and then they call for door kickers, AKA Special Forces.

So actually SIS relying on Republic SF to do the wet work, that actually happens IRL. So that was actually good writing.

Again, the general doing all the intel briefs for Havoc Squad except for certain circumstances

Other than that, except for welcoming you to Courscant in chapter 1 and explaining the situation, you should of been handled by an ops officer. It's what they are there for.

IMO when they made a rank structure for the republic Military, they should of red up on chains of command, and command staffs and stuff, really done their homework and realize that a general in command of SpecFor, almost never sees his teams face to face. He gets the missions from on high, tells his command staff and asks who's available, assigns the team the mission and leaves operational planing to his command team.

It's how it REALLY works. And the second they made a command structure like they did, they made it realistic. If you're going to have chains of command, ABIDE BY THEM.

My No-Prize answer: The traditional hierarchical structure between Squad Leader and Commanding General is dispensed with due to the classified nature of each squad's operations, minimizing the number of people who "need to know." The promotions you receive are pay raises.

Alternate answer: a lot of spots were left open in the chain of command by the many defectors who followed Tavus' lead. Your promotions reflect you growing into the role that Tavus occupied before his departure.

Maybe it's a little of both.

even then you wouldn't see that. watch the movie "Act of Valor" That S.E.A.L. team couldn't of been more covert if they tried doing ops in MEXICO of all places. They didn't get their Op order from the commander of S.E.A.Ls. No they got their mission from the Senior Chief who was the interrogator.

 

And when they got re-directed into mexico, they got their mission from i think the CO or XO on the ship they were stationed on, and another time they got their briefing from a Navy Intel LT.

 

Never once did i see a Admiral/General give them their op orders.

 

I mean in chapter 1, i could see Garza welcoming them in and sitting in on the briefing and then offer in her 2 cents, but doing the op order herself, sorry, that was ALL WRONG.

The CO of a flagship or aircraft carrier is typically an admiral of one rank or another...so it is not far fetched just extremely uncommon outside of SFOD-D or Se.A.L.s etc. I used to work for the DoD and senior officer briefings from that side are far less uncommon as you might think. Generals and Admirals give briefings constantly...it's really what they do...whether it be strategizing about tactics or order of targets or other things. They can be as involved or hands off as they want. So suspension of disbelief is entirely unnecessary. Look at Patton for example. Also...you do not know if Garza's rank is equivalent to a Brigadier or Major general or a Lieutenant General or what. A 1 star officer is more likely to do something like that rather than a 3-4 star.

The utilization of real-world titles and structures is just to ease people into the fiction, offering them things they are familiar with but leaving them open enough for creative license. They'd rather people sit through some inconsistencies than spend their time wondering whether a 'Commandant' outranks the 'Lt. General'. Also, it makes it easier for the storyteller trying to design the system in the first place if they don't have to create something from complete scratch.

Now, the actual Republic Military operates as one could reasonably expect them to, in a world of blaster, super-weapons, and telekinetic warrior monks of course. There's still a chain of command. There are still different people who gather information, analyze that information, and carry out plans based on that information. You still have Majors, Captains, Lieutenants, and Sergeants leading Battalions, Companies, Platoons, and Squads. Only when Special Forces Division is invoked are you asked to just 'go with it'.

Also "SpecForces" is just a name. It is populated by armed "Forces" that are "Special". Don't get caught up in the nomenclature. Before the Treaty of Coruscant, 'Special Forces' referred to 'teams of talented commandos who were included in normal army regiments like any specialists' (From the SW:TOR:Encyclopedia). Garza saw what Havoc Squad did at the Battle of Alderaan and formed an entirely new division composed of those 'Special Forces'. Before Garza took a vested interest, maybe they followed the proper protocols with intermediaries and strict command structures like you think they should, but after 'Special Forces Division's official founding, their unique way of operating was built into their structure. It doesn't matter if 'real world Spec Forces' operate a certain way, this is a wholly different organization that just happens to share a similar name.

SpecForce squads report directly to SpecForce Command on Coruscant, and are overseen by General Garza. For all we know Havoc Squad is the only squad Garza takes a interest in to directly give orders and directions. We don't know Garza's other responsibilities outside of Havoc Squad or SpecForce Division. She was promoted to General at the same time she was put in command of SpecForces, so she likely has different responsibilities from a General in the regular Republic Army hierarchy. And remember, after the Treaty of Coruscant, the Republic and the Empire were at peace, yet SpecForces still carried out covert missions. And as much as General Garza dislikes groups like the senate undermining her control, you can understand why she would want to deal with the organization she heads as closely as possible.

Basically, Garza made Special Forces Division what it is. She controls it. She wants to control it. She designed it so that she could control it. The ranks bestowed upon her and those under her command are to keep an internal hierarchy, and to give them authority over members of the Republic Army at large should they be forced to cooperate. A Major in SpecForces may not be leading a thousand soldiers into battle, but they have been deemed worthy of issuing commands to lower ranked forces on the battlefield.

If you still have a problem with how they operate, or how they are structured, I don't know of any answer that can satisfy you other than, "You're right, this fictional thing is different from this real world thing. It's probably by design."

The CO of a flagship or aircraft carrier is typically an admiral of one rank or another...so it is not far fetched just extremely uncommon outside of SFOD-D or Se.A.L.s etc. I used to work for the DoD and senior officer briefings from that side are far less uncommon as you might think. Generals and Admirals give briefings constantly...it's really what they do...whether it be strategizing about tactics or order of targets or other things. They can be as involved or hands off as they want. So suspension of disbelief is entirely unnecessary. Look at Patton for example. Also...you do not know if Garza's rank is equivalent to a Brigadier or Major general or a Lieutenant General or what. A 1 star officer is more likely to do something like that rather than a 3-4 star.

yes generals give briefings to command staffs, not teams. They strategize the mission who needs to do what flesh out the op order. Then it gets passed down to the actual team doing the mission.

Sorry as being on a TS team I was NEVER briefed by the commanding general of my MEU, hell i almost never saw the MEU commander who was a full bird Colonel. Yeah sometimes he sat in briefings that we conducted more so he could learn about what we do, but if he got a mission that required our specific element, he went to the S2 officer, who then came to my detachment CO, who then passed it down to the TL, who then turned around and passed it down to the team.

Now in certain situations yes there is no time and you get it directly from the flag officer but that is RARE.

Most times a team is getting briefd by an O2 or an O3, a Lieutenant or a Captain. Not a 1 star.

If a 1 star or higher is in a briefing, it's usually with his command team, not the actual pointy end of the stick.

I hope you realize, this is a Game filled with Space Wizards, Light-Swords, and Plasma Rifles.

And you're arguing over ranks.

Don't compare Sci-Fi/Fantasy with RL. You're just going to get nowhere. When talking about a Game's Fantasy Lore. Lore always takes priority over real-life.

 

On the issue of not injecting real life - there already is real life injected. They don't use made up ranks, they use ranks that correlate to the real world. Additionally, the order of those ranks is not made up, but rather fits a real world perspective, where officers go from Lt to Capt to Maj, etc. Otherwise, Captains would be Generals and Generals would be Sergeants. Real life is already there. What we are trying to determine is how much real life should we be concerned about, or just how analogous the Republic Army is to the real world one. It already is somewhat analogous, so saying that we should not inject real life into the fantasy setting is, sorry, dumb. It's already there..

By that logic we should be questioning the Imperial's Rank Structure as well.

TalonVII: A little tangential, but in the real world, when the government is going to send in special forces to do a job that violates an ally's soverignty, or a job that risks creating a diplomatic or war-starting incident with an enemy, a job that is entirely illegal and that the government would deny if caught, aren't those typically carried out by paramilitary teams that are easily disavowed as opposed to uniformed military units? I've never sniffed this variety of stuff in the really real world, so I admit this is a point of ignorance.

Osetto: Thank you. Very much. I was hoping that someone would have the lore knowledge to provide an answer that makes sense, since I assumed Bioware was not this sloppy with their story conceptualization, even if they might have been somewhat sloppy in the delivery of the Trooper's story in-game. Your post basically wins this thread in my mind. A lore-based, story-based explanation I figured was out there. If there wasn't one, then we'd be left with a situation I very much dislike in fantasy settings, which is an ambiguity borne of poor story-planning that fans can interpret in as many different ways as there are imaginations to try. So again, thanks!

By that logic we should be questioning the Imperial's Rank Structure as well.

I suspect you are correct either way, but I don't really care, because I'm all pub all the way

***DISCLAIMER*** As a former US Army Infantryman who never had a Security Clearance I can safely say that nothing I am about to divulge is classified information. ***DISCLAIMER***

1. In the US Army our Special Forces Recruits are not even allowed to try out until at least the Rank of Specialist (e-4).

2. IF selected as a e-4 the soldier is promoted to the Rank of Sergeant (e-5) (even if they only just got promoted to e-4 and would not normally be eligible to go before a promotion board) before going to the Qualification Course.

3. By the end of the Qualification, before running a single mission, the soldier is at least a Staff_Sergeant (e-6). (again this is far faster than the normal speed of promotion)

4. A Special Forces Squad is not a normal Military Squad and is far higher ranked it's not unusual to have Master Sergeants and Sergeants Major in a Squad. They also will contain Officers (notice that was OfficerS plural) and operate as a 6 man team, with a Major or Captain in charge and a LT or Warrant Officer who will be the second in command of the squad as well.

5. Special Forces teams will directly answer to a General, I'm not saying a 4 star but normally at least a 1 star Brigadier General will be in charge of a Operation or series of Operations.

If you want to fact check any of my information please do I got a large portion of my knowledge from reading Black Hawk Down which had a General in charge of the overall mission even though the composition was a Battalion of Rangers and some SF. The rest was gathered over years of talking to SF qualified personnel, including SF Recruiters when I was interested in joining SF.

TalonVII: A little tangential, but in the real world, when the government is going to send in special forces to do a job that violates an ally's soverignty, or a job that risks creating a diplomatic or war-starting incident with an enemy, a job that is entirely illegal and that the government would deny if caught, aren't those typically carried out by paramilitary teams that are easily disavowed as opposed to uniformed military units? I've never sniffed this variety of stuff in the really real world, so I admit this is a point of ignorance.

 

/snip

Considering I DID have a TS/SCI clearance and i know many more things than you do, if you REALLY think that, then you are VERY naive. Stop trying to tell me about things i already know.

***DISCLAIMER*** As a former US Army Infantryman who never had a Security Clearance I can safely say that nothing I am about to divulge is classified information. ***DISCLAIMER***

 

1. In the US Army our Special Forces Recruits are not even allowed to try out until at least the Rank of Specialist (e-4).

 

2. IF selected as a e-4 the soldier is promoted to the Rank of Sergeant (e-5) (even if they only just got promoted to e-4 and would not normally be eligible to go before a promotion board) before going to the Qualification Course.

 

3. By the end of the Qualification, before running a single mission, the soldier is at least a Staff_Sergeant (e-6). (again this is far faster than the normal speed of promotion)

 

4. A Special Forces Squad is not a normal Military Squad and is far higher ranked it's not unusual to have Master Sergeants and Sergeants Major in a Squad. They also will contain Officers (notice that was OfficerS plural) and operate as a 6 man team, with a Major or Captain in charge and a LT or Warrant Officer who will be the second in command of the squad as well.

 

5. Special Forces teams will directly answer to a General, I'm not saying a 4 star but normally at least a 1 star Brigadier General will be in charge of a Operation or series of Operations.

 

If you want to fact check any of my information please do I got a large portion of my knowledge from reading Black Hawk Down which had a General in charge of the overall mission even though the composition was a Battalion of Rangers and some SF. The rest was gathered over years of talking to SF qualified personnel, including SF Recruiters when I was interested in joining SF.

As a former Captain (Intel Branch) I can attest to much of what is in here. I led a 12 man team in the early 90s:

Me

a CWO3

A Master SGT (who, as a former 1st SGT for an infantry company got called "Top" anyhow)

two SFCs

two SSGTs

five SGTs

The CWO3 had been in service almost as long as our youngest team member had been alive. And, rank wise, my team was considered light for our Group. And I took the vast majority of my mission briefings with my WO and MSGT present and usually from a Bird Colonel, but on two occasions from a Brigadier General (I remember those well.)

Special Operations is just "different."

I am in agreement with the people with a military background here (I have none).

Eventhough people can argue that Star Wars is a space opera and belongs to the fantasy genre, the trooper class and background benefit from being anchored into some earth like realistic structure to create a sense of immersion.

Suspension of belief cannot sustain itself "just because the writer asked us to", especially with something as organized as an army.

My preferred missions for the trooper was when I really felt part of a unit having to lead several of my teammates into the mission.

Unfortunately, most of the time I was only running with one companion, being a one man army "killing stuff" like in Rambo or Commando.