I main a fury marauder on darth malgus and after reading the 2 nerf mara troll threads, I decided to give Jugg dps a try, mainly the rage spec which is almost like fury.

Not having predation and force camo is making things interesting for juggs...

The damage output is massive. raging burst hitting up to 32k, but don't seem to stay alive long enough to make the most of it ?

I am a constructive person and I don't believe in nerfs the same way like this PVP community here does.

What could they do to make Jugg DPS more viable in PVP ?

What buffs does it need ? To me it seems like the self heals aren't 5.0 levels and the reflect saber is a joke. Reflect saber should be increased to 6 seconds or even 8 seconds and in my view the self healing needs a little tweak. Maybe modify some passive to give little heals over time or endure pain to heal me up to 60% and give heal over time for 5 seconds ?

Thoughts ?

Forget DCDs, Jugg should be no-click defense. They can remove Enraged Defense if they won't update it.

Just double the rating of Heavy Armor.

A stealth/aggro drop would be out of character.

Forget DCDs, Jugg should be no-click defense. They can remove Enraged Defense if they won't update it.

Just double the rating of Heavy Armor.

What makes you say that? Why would there be a class who is passively as good as other players who need to use DCDs. Won't that mean that a jugg gets auto-win when he attacks a target who has exhausted his DCDs? Won't that mean jugg DPS are halfway tanky already and are viable even without changing spec for tanking OPS?

What you are suggesting is in other words skank with bursty DPS rotation. Skanks are already a problem enough with DPS gear and tank rotation, we don't need any improved version of them.

What makes you say that? Why would there be a class who is passively as good as other players who need to use DCDs. Won't that mean that a jugg gets auto-win when he attacks a target who has exhausted his DCDs? Won't that mean jugg DPS are halfway tanky already and are viable even without changing spec for tanking OPS?

 

What you are suggesting is in other words skank with bursty DPS rotation. Skanks are already a problem enough with DPS gear and tank rotation, we don't need any improved version of them.

I've tried to explain this to this guy before somewhere else. Even on the tank side the class with the most passive defense is supposed to be VG, but they are in such a sad place defensively right now it's hard to say that.

On topic, under enough focus as a dps guardian you're just screwed. You can kite, you can time focused defense, with a healer you can enure in a pinch, but if they keep up the focus you're just screwed. If there are enough ranged, it's easier because reflect can then be used to effect. It's supposed to be our anti-focus but in the current fury mara meta it doesn't really help much.

I've tried to explain this to this guy before somewhere else. Even on the tank side the class with the most passive defense is supposed to be VG, but they are in such a sad place defensively right now it's hard to say that.

Exactly.

PTs, both the tanks and the DPS, prove that passive defensives are useless in PVP.

If they were as good as DCDs they would be OP because it would literally mean 100% uptime DCDs which not even require a ms for the player to waste in order to activate the ability versus timed DCDs that waste the time it takes the finger to reach the keybind (which is longer than 0ms) or even sometimes trigger a full GCD. It is clearly unfair and therefore BioWare DIDN'T do this.

So what DID they do? They made the passive defense crap, almost unfelt, and now we have a class with weak DCDs with long CDs. What other kind of DPS doesn't have the ability to increase his chance to avoid any kind of abilities AND doesn't have an H2F mechanics or any self-heals (shoulder cannon doesn't count)? All that PT DPS have is 20% DR and a weak healing which can sustain him versus the DPS of 2 DPS max, and that too is just up to 35% from which he dies in 3 secs once it is ended (and 3m CD!!). Power tech tanks additionally get a 25% absorption for 6 seconds every ~10-15 secs and an accuracy reduction that is ineffective against players who bother looking at their feet and moving out.

We DON'T want juggs to get the same fate. The options are active DCD, OP, or underperforming. The only real choice is active DCD.

The 1st obvious change needed is reflect to work on melee abilities as well, because why not? If it means that a jugg who had 1% and used reflect will not be killed for the duration of reflect, so be it! It doesn't heal him like the merc's one, so once reflect is over he will die unless healed by something external. Fair as any saving DCD.

Another possibility is a passive, that, to be honest, is missing from many underpowered classes and could benefit the PT as well as the jugg, that would reduce damage taken (by something small, like 10-20%) while in low HP (30%), or trigger a short immunity for a short amount of time (3s?) upon reaching critical state (10%?) that has a high rate limit such as 1-1.5 mins.

One more thing would be mobility. Return the speed utility to endure pain rather than enraged defense. ED has longer CD and lasts shorter (when focused) than EP, making it quite useless [We can make EP speed up the user for 10 seconds regardless of the duration if you fear tanks will be OP for it]. It is not like juggs used to be running in circles around others anyway, and with all other mobilities buffed it is just fair

Jugg Mainers, as well as jugg hunters, tell me what you think. Both sides are important

What makes you say that? Why would there be a class who is passively as good as other players who need to use DCDs. Won't that mean that a jugg gets auto-win when he attacks a target who has exhausted his DCDs? Won't that mean jugg DPS are halfway tanky already and are viable even without changing spec for tanking OPS?

 

What you are suggesting is in other words skank with bursty DPS rotation. Skanks are already a problem enough with DPS gear and tank rotation, we don't need any improved version of them.

If you give DPS Juggs good DCDs, and stealth, they become......mauraders. I don't want a bad copy of another class. Calling Jugg 'halfway tanky' defines the class.

If you give DPS Juggs good DCDs, and stealth, they become......mauraders. I don't want a bad copy of another class. Calling Jugg 'halfway tanky' defines the class.

I don't want stealth. Overall, we have good DCDs. What's needed, as rafi was getting at, is an anti focus tool like reflect is supposed to be.

nerfing overpowered classes like marauder would be a good start

Genuine question: are we including combat and watchmen sents too? Because it's really only concentration that seems to be overperforming.

Class balance is important and remove the most extreme first

 

There is also cluster of abilities that could be changed that would make PVP good and Juggers viable:

 

1) Remove CC immunity making you immune to Hard Stuns beside entrench (give shorter CD but remove Imp prep. so it can't be reset).

2) AoE Knockbacks from anything beside 1 CD and 1 per class 1/30s. AoE knockbacks on Sins changed to single target Lightning Force Push (from intro). Perhaps knockback changed to affect only Ambush or similar for Sniper (15s+ CD)

3) Aoe Slows removed. Low Slash turned into a root.

4) Slows lasting longer than 6s changed and add resolve to slows and roots and complete immunity to both. at 100%.

5) remove Predation for a whole team and the extra speed utility deleted.

6) Make Hard Stuns break from damage after 2 secs.

7) 30 meter Force Charge to be 20-25 meters. Melee +15-25% base movement speed.

8) +10% Base mitigation and +10 defense chance or Shield as survival for melee/PT (Endure Pain and cloak of pain removed) Merc Shield Reset removed.

9) spammable heals in none heal specs removed.

10) Top Highest Burst from 4.5 secs reduced by 10-20% (to make less burst classes viable).

Juggs DCDS are where they should be for a DPS class.

DPS classes should die at the rate a DPS jugg does. It seems about reasonable. The issue is since 5.0 mercs broke that cycle and became Power Overwhelming cheat codes because of the dcd cycle and self heals (on top of concussion missile and rocket out escapes) and also doing good damage as a range class to boot. Following hot on there tails are now mara's (due to cloak escape and reset fight) sin (escape and fight reset) operative (infinite self heals, troll roll, cloak and escape, flash bang, etc) and sniper (albeit tougher now since heal nerf, but still can be a pain if they invest in alot of slows and roots in there skill tree)

Those other dps classes last too long and should die at the rate a DPS jugg does to make things more even. PT dps die faster then DPS juggs and should be bumped up to there level - but BW hates PTs with the passion of a thousand suns, and they will never ever see a defense buff. So I came to accept that.

With that said, these warranted nerfs on other classes will never happen. BW will not balance this game and I can say with the utmost certainty that the balance we have now is probably gonna be what we get till game closes. Anything else is a total pipe dream.

If you give DPS Juggs good DCDs, and stealth, they become......mauraders. I don't want a bad copy of another class. Calling Jugg 'halfway tanky' defines the class.

We get it you truly hate stealth, but I didn't mention that. I just thoroughly demonstrated why can't passive defensives be enough without being OP, and never suggested stealth.

Now generally speaking (not to this quote specifically):

The problem is that some seem not to understand that all DPS specs without exception should be able to parse about the same amount of damage when executing undisturbed rotation. This is the PVE constraint, and you cannot ignore it without ruining the PVE balance and making certain specs best-in-role for all situations, rendering the rest worthless.

To make sure PVP doesn't suffer too much imbalance from this, we have many different ways to disturb different rotations. DoT rotations can be disturbed by purges and bursting faster than the DoTs can kill. Burst rotations can be disturbed by well-timed stuns or short-powerful defensives. Ranged can be LoSed, melee can be kited and rooted. Kiters can be slowed and rooted as well and so on. This is the delicate balance of HAVING to have all DPS deal the same amount of damage, having the tanks deal less damage than DPS even when DPS geared (can be tested in OPS, it still is the situation), having all healers able to sustain raid damage both on single burst and AoE raidwide damage and stable healing, and all that while all need to viable in PVP without one being too much better than anything else. Making juggs "bruisers" for example will mean that since their overall DPS must still remain approx 10-11k they will have one of the most stable moderate-high damage in the game, which will be far worse then a quick carnage burst or a triple critical discharge in the long run (it will have to be around 10k per hit, every hit, rather than having either high 30k and then low 6k or having occasional 20k with dots of 4k each). No cooldown in the game is designed to counter such a DPS for a long time, because there is no burst to use a short defensive again or a certain good time to stun the enemy interrupting his rotation. Add to that the "bruisers" get more defensive and you have created a FOTM.

In addition, you would need to completely overhaul the rotation or change all numbers in there drastically, because it last the way vengeance looks now it is a rotation which requires a quick placement of dots followed by a dot spread just in time before they are gone. It is easily interruptible and therefore is not good for how the "bruiser spec" was pictured.

Which leads to the last thing I want to say: Never suggest an overhaul of core mechanics on your own. BioWare has proved us time and again that even a single ability added, removed, nerfed or buffed can have extreme consequences on class viability and can kick a class straight to the top or bottom of the "food chain". There is simply no way to foresee correctly what would be all the consequences of completely changing core mechanics, some of them as old as 1.0. Don't presume to know better and suggest a new game entirely. Stay within the logical boundaries of debatable changes, because in these there is an actual chance that due to the many different minds here considering the change, there will be a logical and likely conclusion about it.

sin (escape and fight reset) operative (infinite self heals, troll roll, cloak and escape, flash bang, etc)

And I'm fairly confident that balancing around said meme games is a terrible idea. Some classes probably just need to be rough in solo ranked (although they don't need to be *this* rough) for the sake of the rest of PVP.

Again, I'm with you here. The TTK for merc, sniper, and marauder is more too high than juggernaut DPS is too low.

Class balance is important and remove the most extreme first .

 

There is also cluster of abilities that could be changed that would make PVP good and Juggers viable:

 

1) Remove CC immunity making you immune to Hard Stuns beside entrench (give shorter CD but remove Imp prep. so it can't be reset).

2) AoE Knockbacks Sorc/Merc changed to 1 in 30s no reset. AoE knockbacks on Sins changed to single target Lightning Force Push (from intro). Perhaps knockback changed to affect only Ambush or similar for Sniper (15s+ CD).

3) Aoe Slows removed. Low Slash turned into a root.

4) Slows lasting longer than 6s changed and add resolve to slows and roots and complete immunity to both at 100%.

5) remove Predation for a whole team and the extra speed utility deleted.

6) Make Hard Stuns break from damage after 2 secs.

7) 30 meter Force Charge to be 20-25 meters. Melee +15-25% base movement speed.

8) +10-20% Base mitigation and +10 defense chance or Shield as survival for melee/PT (Endure Pain and cloak of pain removed) Merc Shield Reset removed.

9) spammable heals in none heal specs removed.

10) Top Highest Burst from 4.5 secs reduced by 10-20% (to make less burst classes viable).

Not a single one of these suggestions makes any sense.

its funny how you hi-jacked this topic. grade A trolling

@OP

if you put the utilitys back to the way they were in 3.0 it would go a long way. ED used to be good, they used to have a second stun break, they used to be able to speed up their group with their aoe slow, I hear once rage used to be able break root with force charge.... and granting rage a stun resist from force crush would be nice.

they nerfed these things to try to curb the dps tanks, however dps tanks would be nerfed in one update by makeing class passives depend on tank stats (ex: invicible grants 100% shield for 15 secs, if you have no tank stats thats a 20% def, if you do, its like a 35-40% for 15 seconds.) and by making bolster only enhance your stats. so if you have no def rating, you get no bolster def rating, if you do, bolster multiplies it accordingly.

1) Snipers with Cover (Countering the most iconic Star Wars figures - Jedi/Sith warriors)

2) 30 meter gap closers completely countered by Cover (same two as above)

This is the 2nd basic mechanic that existed since launch and you claim to be unfair.

Snipers are the least mobile rdps class, especially the non-engi specs. It makes them more susceptible to LoS and make avoidance of AoE costly on their DPS. They get cover to compensate for their lack of kiting capabilities (they can somewhat kite but lose more than half their dps if they do), they get cover, which replaces Lossing enemy ranged (which is a form of kiting as well) with 20% defense and replaces kiting melees by leap immunity. It is not an extra counter which is useful, granting unfair advantage. It is an ALTERNATIVE counter, and without it, they would be DISADVANTAGED. A skilled jugg can get to a sniper in 3 abilities: dash, push and leap. And anyway I agreed that they need buffed mobility. In addition, why should the fact that the warriors are "iconic" mean they should be better or easier to play?

3) Loads of Knockbacks (Sniper), Slows and Roots (Sniper) including Chained Hard Stuns and CC immunity (Sniper)

Got it, your new pet hate is the sniper. Let me remind you that the operative can be a much more annoying rooter and slower than the sniper, and it actually benefits his offensives versus all classes and not only his defensives versus melee classes, and again I will repeat, jugg should get a mobility buff, no question.

As for the stun immunity, yes it is a good DCD, but given that any spec should have at least 1 good DCD, it is quite fair. Reminding that the sniper is almost defenselss when uncovered, so they need means to stay in it, and consider them immobilized for the duration, just as you can consider sorcs cced for barrier, immobilizes for the sake of a 1v1 advantage isn't such a crazy tradeoff. If it bothers you so much, LoS him, and w8 for it to end or until he moves to follow, then stun, it is not like you have 200 stuns anyway, so if you can insert one stun between covers he didn't benefit so much...

4) same DPS for all classes/specs.

5) same TTK all classes (except tank) same HP pool, more or less same mitigation (+-10%).

I told you specifically the following at least 12345 times: This. Game. Was. Not. Solely. Created. For. PVP!!

All DPS classes must be capable of pulling the same single target numbers or some will be obsolete in PVE group content and people will not accept them. The fact that BioWare failed to make all DPS equally viable in PVP due to the too many factors, doesn't mean they need to break the good thing they have which is most DPS being viable for most PVE content and all of them viable for even the hardest solo content (which is harder then several veteran OPS). All DPS must have the same possible single target output. All DPS should be as easy to heal (large differences in health pools means some are harder to heal than others. Just imagine if tanks had only 20% of the health of a DPS and take only 25% damage, they would still survive far better than DPS because they will be healed to full in half a sec)

So Bioware create a game for Light Saber fans. Into that game, they put the biggest most OP broken mechanic in entire MMORPG history - Cover. Then they kept balancing around Cover, rmaking a Light Sabers vs Sniper War so Inherently broken (imagine the opposite) that you will laugh a bit

I would take this half seriously just for the exaggeration, if I didn't know you already for having... unique perspective on core mechanics that existed forever. Since I do know you, I can't take this more than 10% seriously...

Cover is an equal or worse replacement to kiting, sucseptible to LoS, AoEs and counter kiting far more than a merc with hydraulics or a sorc with speed are, and they benefit far longer from melee's unable to get to them than any sniper could ever hope, and they can escape from any number of melees with their CDs, while the sniper can focus on rooting only one at a time (beside the single root from his long CDed push. Cover is NOT OP.

Getting back to original topic: Start by restoring moblity and making it equal the mobility of all other melees (force-speed, override, predation, rolls, and that is without counting all additional utilities). A good start would be moving the speed utility from ED to EP as I said before. Once this change is done we can see how much of the lack of survivabilty was due to lack of escaping abilities, and see if adding more defenses or buffing the existing ones is neccesary.

I’ve not played my Rage Jugg in ranked under the current meta, but I can say in regs they are already viable. If you were to tweak them too much they would become OP in regs and FOTM.

I’m not sure what you can do for them in Ranked. So I’ll lets those who have been playing ranked in this meta suggest things that might work. Just be subtle about it or they’ll be OP. Remember there will always be one class in the group that will get focused first, it’s just the way ranked works. Unfortunately it’s Juggs at the moment.

Story Time: Back a Bioware Austin HQ.

A now former Dev: "Hey Guys.. maybe we should remove some Slows, Roots and Knockbacks and change Resolve to include them and grant immunity? Instead of adding the 5th root breaker and the 3rd utility that increases speed

This relates to every class in the game, not just Juggs.

We’ve had a constant arms race of stuns vs speed (Mobility) for 5 years. Instead of dialing them back, they just add more to try and balance, which just makes it more convoluted and worse.

Remember when Inquistors were the only ones with a speed run ability? Now every class has one (except Juggs) and it looks like speed wars out there. If you were to look at this meta for the first time after a 5 year break, you would think everyone was speed hacking. (I guess Bioware didn’t know how to stop the speed hackers, so they gave everyone a built in speed hack)

I’ve not played my Rage Jugg in ranked under the current meta, but I can say in regs they are already viable. If you were to tweak them too much they would become OP in regs and FOTM.

 

I’m not sure what you can do for them in Ranked. So I’ll lets those who have been playing ranked in this meta suggest things that might work. Just be subtle about it or they’ll be OP. Remember there will always be one class in the group that will get focused first, it’s just the way ranked works. Unfortunately it’s Juggs at the moment.

I've not played my Vengeance Jugg in ranked in 2 years, when we first started getting focused. We are just as squishy in regs as we are in ranked. It's just that we get focused less often, and by fewer opponents, partly because players are spread out more on the map. This is the ONLY reason dps Juggs can PvP at all. We have all been in Voidstar were we died 8-9 times, and just kept running back to the door. DCDs don't work in VS because they don't come off cooldown by the time the spawn door opens. We run back to the door with no defenses, and get slaughtered.

It will take more than subtle DCD changes to get my Jugg in this season of Ranked.

Was just ideas. Like reducing healing solves matchmaking issues, when a Healer isn't present. Reducing Guard would fix match making problems, when a Tank isn't present. Basic ideas. Like tuning Down Cover, Knockbacks, Roots and Slows to avoid Buffs to Melee classes. Simple Things like that.

If 8 DPS are as good as or better than 2/4/2 T/D/H and far superior than 2/2/4 or any other distribution not favoring DPS then there is no use for the other specs and it is statistically better to queue only as DPS in order not to risk having too few DPS. This will result in non-DPS specs simply being unplayed. Not a good solution. Tuning down basically anything which is not pure DPS numbers will dumb PVP beyond being fun. If I want to parse, I have dummies...

Not unfair. Just broken..

 

It is Completely Broken in fact and making the reverse shows it: Would be like a Ranged Class Un-targetable from beyond 10 meters, Tanky with High Burst, alot of CC and CC immunity. Broken-as-a-MF Concept - it is hilarious. Cover in a game with walking speed in PvP and Force Charge reliant classes Iconic to the whole game.

 

/facepalm

I explained thoroughly why is cover an equal or less good replacement for kiting, and your reverse example it just over-proportioned and has no comparable value and it not a logical argument. It is as if I would say the reverse of the current "too high" burst damage is being limited to 1 damage per sec (which is ridiculous) and then prove using that "reverse" that the current state is also bad

And please drop the "Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors are fundamentally SWTOR", this is garbage. I, for one, like playing this basic class least of all 4 basic classes (don't hate it, but I enjoy the other classes more). There is absolutely no reason for it to be best in PVP or be easier to play or be harder to counter.

They lack in maneuverability compared to most melee DPS, have a short root immunity but not a root breaker (fsin's immunity can be used while rooted and is, therefore, a breaker. Same for hydraulics for PT, and operatives can cleanse some roots and "diversion" the others). It is the most logical thing to give them a speeding ability which breaks roots and grants root immunity and has a CD equal or less than 60s. Exaggerating further to make things sound stupid - while your ideas are far more extreme and ridiculous - failed. Try something else...

Lol I've given up on arguing with him... It didn't work in the guard thread, it's not going to work here.

For juggs it's an issue of how good other classes are right now. There's mercs, snipers, maras then there's juggie, shadow, PT, and sorc. Not sure on operatives honestly.

I guess what is really needed is a decision on how survivable dps specs should be, rather than having some thst are obviously good and some that are obviously squishy.