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Madness Dps in Arena, Fully Viable


Xeraz

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I posted this on the pvp forums but I wanted to come directly to the Sorcs on this. Below we have 3 different players with Team Rated streams showing it's viability.

 

Glory

http://www.twitch.tv/matchlessglory/b/472382530

 

Mudclot

http://www.twitch.tv/mudclot/b/472349584

 

Thurinlore (Start at the 9 Hour mark)

http://www.twitch.tv/thurinlore2/b/471983296

 

My only major complaint with Madness is the Force Issues, besides that though it seems to be just fine. Btw this is the spec Glory used, I'm assuming the others were the same or very similar.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201hZbc0MZcMfRsbkrfRR.3

Edited by Xeraz
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Insomiaq is good although he lags a bit. Ary'a is a very good operative healer. Hitmanpro is also a good merc healer BUT, he is a merc healer- definitely NOT fotm.

 

I think those are the only healers/tanks in those videos. Most of the games were with triple dps.

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just like the streams i linked before.

 

excellent sorcs/ranged playing with a tank who knows how to support and a great healer = win

 

it only feels op and viable because our little group is the one doing it. there are lots of other double sorc, ranged combos that get destroyed

 

the question i posed in another thread is if bioware should buff sorcs/ranged in general, which would make people like us jesus, or if they should buff based on everyone else who is struggling and doesn't have excellent teammates

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I don't think dispel-able Madness dots are needed at all, this will only be a nerf on Sorc healers and won't actually buff Madness dps much at all. Imho, the only buff Madness needs is better Force Management.

 

I honestly think the best thing that can happen to Arena is a little more "rock/paper/scissors." This will give more variation to the comps used and reason for the Meta to shift. For example, I believe that if Ranged dps becomes stronger than classes like Deception/Shien Jugg will be making a stronger play in arena. Those classes currently don't perform as well against the Operative/Powertech/Marauder crowd but they have very redeeming qualities against Ranged dps setups.

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i agree with you. madness buffs are stupid because hardly anyone dispels as is, and it only ensures that lightning stands no chance against madness 1v1, if they ever did before (yes i know, not a 1v1 game)

 

i also agree it will force more people to think outside the box instead of double derp pt or smash train.

 

vengeance/lightning and deception/lightning can already beat most setups, just not enough good players to run it nor people willing to try.

 

that's my biggest concern...how many good people are really left? how many will come back? playing as my merc or sorc, i have a very limited group of people i can run with on pot5.

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I have been playing a tk sage and that class need help it to easy to shut down so I switched to balance a feew days ago and there is a drastic improvement in viability. I made a few mistakes that cost me but I cant say it was the class balance is viable any anyone have a tip for mar what the best combo for smash spec from 10-30 m leap kb sprint root? 10 m root sprint ? I could get them off me with the stealth sprint more of an ltp than class . the dr when stuned is huge btw still electro net should not trump bubble fix that and ops heals well see
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i agree with you. madness buffs are stupid because hardly anyone dispels as is, and it only ensures that lightning stands no chance against madness 1v1, if they ever did before (yes i know, not a 1v1 game)

 

i also agree it will force more people to think outside the box instead of double derp pt or smash train.

 

vengeance/lightning and deception/lightning can already beat most setups, just not enough good players to run it nor people willing to try.

 

that's my biggest concern...how many good people are really left? how many will come back? playing as my merc or sorc, i have a very limited group of people i can run with on pot5.

 

I feel this way to a focus guardian and tank guardian the other day u think someon on the other team would be slowed not one as the pack was chacing me I was like man y no guardian leap and snear ***

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I just feel he is trying to overplay it's "viability". The spec has quite a fair share of difficulties and I feel against higher level play it would suffer more than it does currently.

 

For example assume that merc/sorc healer was a more common arena choice. Assuming you had a good one you could take advantage of full madness's force regen system. Have the healer put a focus target on the madness sorc and focus interrupt force lighting casts (resto shamman style). That would deprive a lot of burst from the spec and at the same time harm its regen mechanic. (which is already bad to begin with)

 

After all the spec doesn't really have a lot of burst and DOT aoe pressure harms your ability to use mez in combat. It primarily works as a tank killer due to the nature of guard. This is nice because most tanks don't know when to take guard off. I guess after all it comes down to how you define "viable".

 

I personally view the spec as usable but certainly not competitively optimal.

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i agree with you. madness buffs are stupid because hardly anyone dispels as is, and it only ensures that lightning stands no chance against madness 1v1, if they ever did before (yes i know, not a 1v1 game)

 

i also agree it will force more people to think outside the box instead of double derp pt or smash train.

 

vengeance/lightning and deception/lightning can already beat most setups, just not enough good players to run it nor people willing to try.

 

that's my biggest concern...how many good people are really left? how many will come back? playing as my merc or sorc, i have a very limited group of people i can run with on pot5.

 

Never played vengeance lightning, but deception lightning is a blast with a good sin!

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just like the streams i linked before.

 

excellent sorcs/ranged playing with a tank who knows how to support and a great healer = win

 

it only feels op and viable because our little group is the one doing it. there are lots of other double sorc, ranged combos that get destroyed

 

the question i posed in another thread is if bioware should buff sorcs/ranged in general, which would make people like us jesus, or if they should buff based on everyone else who is struggling and doesn't have excellent teammates

 

I've watched some of the arenas battles you had guys and let me firstly clarify that your play and mudclots are of the highest level. However, you have an amazing healer and tank. There is one orbital station arena that the sorc is taking heavy damage, and no there is no kiting he is being in the middle of 3 dps getting heavy damage. He survives for sooooo long due to the amazing skills of your scoundrel healer. But most importantly is that during this orbital station round his dps is very very low and that's not his fault but simply a clear demonstration of how easy it is to shutdown a caster. Put some other class in his place and not only your healer would have less pressure but also your team would have actually been able to dps them down. In some other arenas I see mudclot facetanking people due to fast guard swapping and amazing healing again. Don't get me wrong, I said at start that your play is excellent but you have some outstanding support.

 

Now, 99.9% of the sarcs don't really have this kind of support, and of course you wouldn't expect to have it in solo qing. IMO sarcs require too much babysitting, are taking too much damage, and cannot perform under pressure. Even with guard and heals their effectiveness is still less than a lot of other classes.

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i meant to respond to your post before music.

 

what i wanted to say was, a lot of playing as ranged dps is knowing when to stand still and burst, and when to run. in a couple of the vids when i was on my sorc, you will see us score kills when i ws <20%. i could have been executed but based on other things i knew it was a good/only chance to land a kill.

 

so yes, you obviously need a good tank and healer and also a teammate who supports you and gives you time to cast. also in the double sorc video, we were constantly doing root knockback for each other when we were switching targets.

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Yes don't misunderstand me, your skills guys are high. I was trying to highlight that even some of the best ranged in such heavy conditions of focus how they suffer and it would be even worse without team support. Take some of the best sents, vans or shads for example and put them on the same spot, do you think they would be shutdown in such way? And I agree one of my best friends in an arena can be another sage or ranged who knows how to cover each other together. What I'm trying to highlight is that IMO no class should be dependent to others to the extend sarcs are. I just think with some minor adjustments they could be more independent and harder to shutdown, hopefully reducing the current situation in which constantly the plan is to target a sarc first.
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oh i didn't take your comments as a slight or anything

 

my whole concern is if they buff sorcs too much and nerf melee. not that it wouldn't be nice to be fotm for a bit, but it will kill off the already dying population

 

the majority of gamers don't want a challenge, or you wouldn't already see so many pts, maras, op healers, etc

 

also, more people would be willing to try crazy comps, or put in the work to make them good

 

i'm hopeful for better balance but we'll see...

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This is the reason I linked the multiple videos. In all three videos we ran different comps.

 

In Mudclot's stream it was Lethality Sniper, Madness Sorc, Immortal Jugg and Medicine Operative.

In Thurinlore's stream it was triple Madness Dps with Merc Healer

In Glory's stream it was Double Madness, Marksman Sniper and Merc Healer.

 

My main point on this- Two of the three videos ran WITHOUT a Tank. (aka no guard or taunts) Additionally two of the three videos ran without an Operative Healer.

 

Now I continue to see the argument that, "Even if it works for them it doesn't work for everyone else." This is possible but isn't it at least worth a try? I mean, if everyone who plays this game is equally terrible then doesn't that mean the Madness Sorcs playing would be just as terrible as the fotm classes?

Edited by Xeraz
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I agree. Small adjustments such as egress speed by default and bubble armor on its own gcd for utility would be great for dps spec. The healing spec is not shining due to scounds being kind of impossible to shutdown, but otherwise it is in a pretty balanced spot IMO with the exception of sac.
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Oh on doubt. I like playing in teams of good ranged than in teams with good melee cause most of the time they simply charge forward without paying attention what is happening on the back :). But if you team up with inexperienced ranged... I had a slinger complaing to me that I pulled him out of the focus of two vanguards claiming I spoilt his orbital cast. :(
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This is the reason I linked the multiple videos. In all three videos we ran different comps.

 

In Mudclot's stream it was Lethality Sniper, Madness Sorc, Immortal Jugg and Medicine Operative.

In Thurinlore's stream it was triple Madness Dps with Merc Healer

In Glory's stream it was Double Madness, Marksman Sniper and Merc Healer.

 

My main point on this- Two of the three videos ran WITHOUT a Tank. (aka no guard or taunts) Additionally two of the three videos ran without an Operative Healer.

 

Now I continue to see the argument that, "Even if it works for them it doesn't work for everyone else." This is possible but isn't it at least worth a try? I mean, if everyone who plays this game is equally terrible then doesn't that mean the Madness Sorcs playing would be just as terrible as the fotm classes?

 

possible but highly unlikely due to less defensive ability, and requiring too much know-how and focus to do the same things as a melee class

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Oh on doubt. I like playing in teams of good ranged than in teams with good melee cause most of the time they simply charge forward without paying attention what is happening on the back :). But if you team up with inexperienced ranged... I had a slinger complaing to me that I pulled him out of the focus of two vanguards claiming I spoilt his orbital cast. :(

 

Never mess with Orbital again!! j/k

 

I guess my main point is, horrible players will do horribly. I think a team using 2 "average" Madness Sorcs with another ranged dps/tank SHOULD be able to do "average" in arena including against fotm teams. (If you really think about it average players should have something similar to a 50% win rate)

 

Regardless of comp though an Average team will lose to an Exceptional team.

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I guess my main point is, horrible players will do horribly. I think a team using 2 "average" Madness Sorcs with another ranged dps/tank SHOULD be able to do "average" in arena including against fotm teams. (If you really think about it average players should have something similar to a 50% win rate)

 

Personally I simple don't agree with this statement. In every game I have ever played there is always an opinion for a character/class that simply requires less thought. This may be due to a variety of reasons but the fact is options that have less penalty for improper decision making generally are not only the most popular options, but are generally more effective options. These brain-dead options aren't always a top tier choice, but the fact that they require less thought and precision is sadly an advantage regardless of player skill.

 

While I'm not trying to say a team of sorcs couldn't have moderate success, I think it is fair to say that a team of smash maras of the same skill would probably destroy them.

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oh i didn't take your comments as a slight or anything

 

my whole concern is if they buff sorcs too much and nerf melee. not that it wouldn't be nice to be fotm for a bit, but it will kill off the already dying population

 

the majority of gamers don't want a challenge, or you wouldn't already see so many pts, maras, op healers, etc

 

also, more people would be willing to try crazy comps, or put in the work to make them good

 

i'm hopeful for better balance but we'll see...

 

They dont need to buff sorcs, just nerf melee.

 

Lightning is fine, it has burst and some degree of control. You dont have uber survivability but you cant have everything.

 

Madness is almost there. It has spread pressure and roots on demand. If they give it a touch more control and fix force issues madness is more than fine.

 

Healing is a mess but thats a another area.

 

Im not a accomplished sorc DPSer but i would advocate no damage buffs to any sorc spec at all. Maybe fadeout being baseline and fix the stupidity of Madness force management.

 

I also wouldnt advocate severe nerfs to melee survivability. Melee tends to take a punch once in a while, they are melee anyway.

 

My proposal would be to nerf melees uptime and some of their mobility. Why does everything a melee does slow and roots people forever? Why do they have so much gap closers and instant AoE stuns?

 

In the early days of the game a sentinel would have to charge and at least think about slowing their targets. Nowadays you are rooted for 2 gcds and permaslowed as soon as they charge you. What is this? Mongo mode?

 

Why force crush is the strongest DoT in the game with rolling 4k crits, its stronger than creeping terror, rofl.

 

Im not worried about smash damage, but why must it be so frontloaded and braindead? Charge, smash, crush 90% slow 4k rolling DoTs, 10m scream, 10m execute. YOLO.

 

In other games when a warrior charges you he has to go through a minimal thought process to stick and burst their targets. They must slow people with hamstring / piercing howl, open up with colossus smash to be able to do real damage, ms and manage rage to burst with either heroic strike (rage efficient burst) or slam (rage innefiecient burst).

 

All the though process explained above dont even get close to a LOLMARAS mind. Smash, yolo.

 

I think that every sorc who played heals or kiting specs will LOL at what im going to tell here, but as a healer im get constantly taunted (both AoE and single target) and pacified. Now why people would do that?

 

Because 90% of the melee in this game prolly have a razer kboard and macro all their skills in a single key (including taunts) and just spams it in whoever crosses their path. If its a sage, they just spam it harder.

 

Melee in this game should have the same average power level they have now (a few tweaks here and there) but be absolutely harder to play in terms of thought process. In this way great melee players would still be deadly as **** and we would create an actual difference between dedicated melee players and the horrible ones, just like sorcs.

 

Unfortunately Bioware doesnt seem to realise this and is giving braindead root on ravage to vengeance.

Edited by Laforet
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