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We need HM FPs to mean something for people that have gear


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FORMAL REQUEST TO BIOWARE FOR SOFTWARE CHANGE

CODE NAME: "Light at the End of the Carrot"

 

Update 01 05/10/12: Please mirror on the Republic side.

 

Purpose: To give almost everyone at any Level 50 gearing level major incentive to log in several times a week--giving them something desirable and useful to do, and to complement/prepare for the new LFG tool (for HM flashpoints).

 

Software components/functional interfaces affected:

1. Daily mission manager (NPC box) located in Fleet

 

2. Daily mission reward manager (NPC box) located in Fleet

 

3. Master mission manager code (the component which manages all available missions, tracks progress, and

rewards)

 

4. Quest reward dialog box selection code

 

 

Detail of required changes:

1. Daily mission manager (NPC Box) located in Fleet

a. Remove existing mission [WEEKLY] Galactic Conquests

b. Replace this mission with a quest by the same name; however the mission will now read as follows:

Repeatable - this mission can be repeated in the future.

 

Aid the Empire by completing three separate missions on the hard difficulty: (NOTE THE WORDS THREE

SEPARATE)

(remaining text lists all HM Flashpoints except The Black Talon, Kaon, and Lost Island--see note below)

 

* Note: Black Talon is an easy, starter instance and can remain that way. As well, in practice it has

been "abused" to complete the weekly Galactic Conquests mission by running it three times in succession

every week (it's human nature to want everything ASAP). Consequently, players have been bored silly running

the Flashpoint, and few have run the full gamut of available HM Flashpoints. In addition, people believe all HM

Flashpoints are easy and quick (and boring), but in truth they vary widely in this respect, and are in fact fun

instead of the "same old boring." In addition the weekly Rakghoul Conquest quest can stand as-is.

 

2. Daily mission reward manager (NPC box manager code).

No explicit changes needed, reward should change due to modifications to master mission manager code,

as described below.

 

3. Master mission manager code must now implement the requirements of the quest (do three seperate HM dailies

per week), and distribute upon completion ONE of the following rewards a thru g (x TBD in each case):

THE "CARROT":

a. x Tionese, x Columni tokens (more than before)

b. x BH tokens

c. x Social points

d. x Credits (x is fairly large)

e. x Very high quality lockbox(es) with items inside (perhaps even new ones like rare schematics)

f. x Very high quality crafting material lockbox(es)

g. x Legacy points

 

h. In addition to a thru g, a very small chance of a very rare pet or mount

 

4. Quest reward dialog box selection code

MIght need to accomodate increased number of choices (a thru g) above.

 

Estimated time for completion:

Design - 1 day

Implementation - 3 days

Testing - 1 day

 

Contributors:

Mustelidaen - Frugerc/The Jekk'Jekk Tarr Guild: Tainted Agenda Software Engineer

goatfoam

Ganrax

 

Thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=449495

 

p.s. (Added later) I tried to submit my proposal to the main discussion threads, but it was quickly removed. It seems to me the developers don't want people floating ideas for quick solutions, but will tolerate the innumerable complaints. I'm puzzled.

Edited by Mustelidaen
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FORMAL REQUEST TO BIOWARE FOR SOFTWARE CHANGE

CODE NAME: "Light at the End of the Carrot"

 

This is a flawed concept.

 

1. Weekly quests do not get people to log in every day.

2. The Republic mirror to Black Talon, Esseles is harder, the easiest HM on the Republic side is Taral V which you can skip 2 bosses and more than half the trash and finish in around 20 minutes or less.

3. The rewards - You are already awarded Social Points/Credits/Exp(Legacy) throughout the dungeon experience.

3.2 Lockboxes are BOE and by nature cannot be too good or they will have a negative effect on the economy.

4. You are making some big assumptions on lead times.

Edited by Xarielle
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This is a flawed concept.

 

1. Weekly quests do not get people to log in every day.

2. The Republic mirror to Black Talon, Esseles is harder, the easiest HM on the Republic side is Taral V which you can skip 2 bosses and more than half the trash and finish in around 20 minutes or less.

3. The rewards - You are already awarded Social Points/Credits/Exp(Legacy) throughout the dungeon experience.

3.2 Lockboxes are BOE and by nature cannot be too good or they will have a negative effect on the economy.

4. You are making some big assumptions on lead times.

 

1. Yes they do, if they offer the proper carrot.

2. This could be easily mirrored on the Republic side. But thanks, I'll add this to the requirements :-)

3. So what? You miss the point completely. If people want more of a certain thing, here's a way to get it.

4. Nope.

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What we really need is to have a tool so more can run Flashpoints. :rolleyes:

 

I believe that tool is in the game and for most MMO vets is used quite frequently on the Fleets. It usually starts with someone typing in general chat "LFM for..."

 

The low pop servers being merged together is the one thing that can greatly help this game, but what the OP began to state is those with Full Rakata and BH gear or higher have very little motivation to go and do HM FPs. I still haven't done Koan or Lost Island, because it's very difficult to find a group and I'm in a very large guild of over 150 players. People just don't want to repeat the HMs because everything they need drops from Operations.

 

And that's the problem.

 

Everything a raider needs drops from Operations. In one week, my group clears through all the Nightmare modes of the old Ops, all greed on the items for our companions and mats if anyone actually has a profession other than Biochem, and then we finish off Explosive Conflict. And then I don't see them for a week, because there's nothing else to do but dailies.

 

If Bioware reads any of this thread, I hope CMs can convey the need for everything in the game to be relevant to some degree. By making only the top tier Ops relevant for gear progression, everything else becomes ignored.

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I believe that tool is in the game and for most MMO vets is used quite frequently on the Fleets. It usually starts with someone typing in general chat "LFM for..."

 

The low pop servers being merged together is the one thing that can greatly help this game, but what the OP began to state is those with Full Rakata and BH gear or higher have very little motivation to go and do HM FPs. I still haven't done Koan or Lost Island, because it's very difficult to find a group and I'm in a very large guild of over 150 players. People just don't want to repeat the HMs because everything they need drops from Operations.

 

And that's the problem.

 

Everything a raider needs drops from Operations. In one week, my group clears through all the Nightmare modes of the old Ops, all greed on the items for our companions and mats if anyone actually has a profession other than Biochem, and then we finish off Explosive Conflict. And then I don't see them for a week, because there's nothing else to do but dailies.

 

If Bioware reads any of this thread, I hope CMs can convey the need for everything in the game to be relevant to some degree. By making only the top tier Ops relevant for gear progression, everything else becomes ignored.

 

First of all, there are many, many subscribers who are not running nightmare modes or EC at all yet. So you assume a lot. I am sure Bioware is working on the next high-level dungeon content anyway. Play an alt, or some other game if the above list does not interest you--if you are so "high-end."

 

Next, all the things listed above do not drop from Ops, and even if they did, as I said, most people are not running nightmare modes or EC yet.

 

But you do have one very good point. The economy has fallen apart on most servers, apparently something that was ignored or poorly designed.

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The focus needs to be how to make FPs relevant. A LFG tool won't help if there is nothing of value in an FP except cool and challenging content. We need more of a "carrot" than that. A LFG tool will help the leveler's who hate to quest but those folks are missing out on the best leveling experience in any MMO. I lean toward providing achievements and stuff that's hard to acquire else where. Think about how many times ppl ran certain WoW dungeons to get that really rare enchanting recipe or trinket. Sure it was a grind, but it was something with direction to do on off-raiding days.
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The focus needs to be how to make FPs relevant. A LFG tool won't help if there is nothing of value in an FP except cool and challenging content. We need more of a "carrot" than that. A LFG tool will help the leveler's who hate to quest but those folks are missing out on the best leveling experience in any MMO. I lean toward providing achievements and stuff that's hard to acquire else where. Think about how many times ppl ran certain WoW dungeons to get that really rare enchanting recipe or trinket. Sure it was a grind, but it was something with direction to do on off-raiding days.

 

I totally agree with you, hence the proposal I made, above. It doesn't require a LFG tool, by the way.

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You haven't read the whole thread. Incidentally, your point is moot--you can already get 6 BH tokens per week through simple dailies that take less than 2 hours total.

 

Do you understand why WoW works so well, and SWTOR is having problems? Go back and read this thread, and heck a bunch of the other main discussion threads about this game. Next, talk to someone with background in marketing. After that, talk to someone with background in economics. Finally, talk to someone with a background in psychology.

 

I know I'm asking a lot, but you are seeing this only through a narrow tunnel vision.

 

We want SWTOR to prosper, and that depends on elements of marketing and economics and psychology even more now than cranking out new software releases. In their respective MMO games, it's elements of marketing and economics and psychology which Blizzard has mastered, and Bioware has not.

 

In simple terms, Blizzard knows where to set the carrot at the end of the stick, and Bioware doesn't.

 

If this all sounds incomprehensible to you, flip back to whatever computer game you are playing and forget about it.

 

Despite all of this, your post is moot. Tier 1 HM flashpoints shouldn't give you tier 2 OPs gear.:rolleyes:

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Last boss from HM Flashpoints should drop a large sum of credits, that way you can appeal to all the geared lvl 50's to run the instances for the sole purpose to get money...

 

Maybe add some random mods, enhancements, hilts, armoring drops from last boss... But this should be very high quality, and bind on acquired.

Edited by Zalgred
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Despite all of this, your post is moot. Tier 1 HM flashpoints shouldn't give you tier 2 OPs gear.:rolleyes:

 

Negative. Negative. Negative. These threads are full of trolls! Even if there were such a suggestion, the post would not be moot because there are a multitude of reward options I present.

 

Where did I say that? Scratches head. Do you mean BH tokens? Well, 2 things...first people are saying Rakata is superior to BH gear (a problem in itself) and next BH tokens are already given out for a simple 1-2 hour Black Hole daily.

Edited by Mustelidaen
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Negative. Negative. Negative. These threads are full of trolls! Even if there were such a suggestion, the post would not be moot because there are a multitude of reward options I present.

 

Where did I say that? Scratches head. Do you mean BH tokens? Well, 2 things...first people are saying Rakata is superior to BH gear (a problem in itself) and next BH tokens are already given out for a simple 1-2 hour Black Hole daily.

 

1) You're right, these threads are full of trolls.

2) Rakata gear is NOT better than the black hole gear. The base sets might not be itemized correctly but you are free to pull mods out and customize it to how you want. BH gear has 61 mods, rakata is 58. With the proper customization a full BH set will easily beat a rakata set.

3) BH tokens are not given out on a daily, they are given out on a weekly basis.

Edited by TheRealCandyMan
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1) You're right, these threads are full of trolls.

2) Rakata gear is NOT better than the black hole gear. The base sets might not be itemized correctly but you are free to pull mods out and customize it to how you want. BH gear has 61 mods, rakata is 58. With the proper customization a full BH set will easily beat a rakata set.

3) BH tokens are not given out on a daily, they are given out on a weekly basis.

 

Sorry that was a kind of a typo on the daily/weekly thing. As you know, it is a set of dailies that must be completed within the week.

 

I agree on the pulling/changing of mods. I do it myself.

Edited by Mustelidaen
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Just make a nightmare difficulty for the flashpoints.

 

(Bear in mind my server gets maybe 70 people in fleet on primetime and maybe 40 of them are 50 and 20 of those are PvPing so your mileage will vary.)

 

That would just exacerbate the problem...

I have never seen anyone LFG for the normal mode lvl 50 FPs (And the leveling FPs outside Esseles and BT are more or less dead too). Anyone who's already geared isn't interested in hard mode FPs. Introducing a third tier would basically limit a fresh 50 to PvP or the GTN as the only means to gear up w/o a dedicated group running them through. I suppose you can trot out the old "If you aren't raiding what you need gear for?" excuse, but this is even worse in Ops. I've been raiding for a couple weeks, half the raid has Rakata the other half still has some greens... so half wants to do EC normal while the other half is barely able to finish EV hard... The Rakata guys geared up back when they hit 50 2 days after they got the game. Even back then finding FP groups was hard, now it's basically impossible. Adding a third tier of FPs (which I guess the Rakghoul ones technically already are) would only cause more headaches bc then you don't have a reason to go to normal mode or hard mode FPs.

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It is only hurting FP participation because really no one has a reason to run them unless gearing a companion

 

Can't even do that, since, at least based on these forums, people would blow a fuse if you dared to need for that reason. Bringing less geared alt to need for appears to be ok though :rolleyes:

 

What would make geared 50s to do these? Something that is of value for them. Currently, main thing would likely be BH coms. But getting them from wipe-the-floor difficulty content would discourage doing Lost Island/Denova. At least the reward amount would have to be very small.

 

Personally, getting some grade 7/8 crafting mats (or rather, columi tokens and able to buy the mats with them) might be reason enough to do old HM every now and then. But again, the speed at which you get those could not be too high.

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Can't even do that, since, at least based on these forums, people would blow a fuse if you dared to need for that reason. Bringing less geared alt to need for appears to be ok though :rolleyes:

 

What would make geared 50s to do these? Something that is of value for them. Currently, main thing would likely be BH coms. But getting them from wipe-the-floor difficulty content would discourage doing Lost Island/Denova. At least the reward amount would have to be very small.

 

Personally, getting some grade 7/8 crafting mats (or rather, columi tokens and able to buy the mats with them) might be reason enough to do old HM every now and then. But again, the speed at which you get those could not be too high.

 

All good points. But note, the Kaon/Lost Island route is chosen by so very few. Mostly because these instances are too aggravating or difficult, and require higher-end raiding gear. Denova is another story, it is very popular. Believe it or not, some very upper-end foilks already have TOO MANY BH tokens from Denova. So if there is anything in need of tweaking, it is the high rate of BH tokens dropped in Denova. This, while the normal player can get 6 per week by doing the BH daily/weekly.

 

But note, my proposed solution would give even Denova people (who have too many BH tokens) a host of other reward incentives. Or they could run the new quest on an alt, who is not geared for Denova (of which people have many). The BH tokens were just one selection of several I made for a reward to the proposed new daily/weekly quest.

 

For the doubters:

 

Do you think they actually go in and write computer code for each and every quest in the game? No, they use what are called "object-oriented" design and methods, driven by data and tables that is extremely easy to change in a short time. Think of a data and tables as a list--like you would write down on a piece of paper for groceries. Imagine adding one new item to that list, by hand, say a bunch of carrots...

 

So ya, three days to do that is very generous. Plus one day to plan out the design before, and one day to test after.

 

SWTOR could have hordes of people with new incentive to log in--given this new carrot quest--in just five days. I assure you.

Edited by Mustelidaen
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Just make a nightmare difficulty for the flashpoints.

 

And after all have done Nightmare Mode on all Flashpoints, then what? we will have the same freaking discussion all over again...

 

There are several ways to encourage people to repeat content... For me the solution comes from adding extra loot from the last boss chest or body... Large sum of credits, random mods, armoring, enhancements, hilts, barrels, ear pieces, implants, relics, etc...

 

I have always said that the last boss loot from flashpoints was very poor... the only thing worthy from it was the armor piece... recipes that are bind on acquired that produces bind on craft items are a huge and stupid mistake!

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(Bear in mind my server gets maybe 70 people in fleet on primetime and maybe 40 of them are 50 and 20 of those are PvPing so your mileage will vary.)

 

That would just exacerbate the problem...

I have never seen anyone LFG for the normal mode lvl 50 FPs (And the leveling FPs outside Esseles and BT are more or less dead too). Anyone who's already geared isn't interested in hard mode FPs. Introducing a third tier would basically limit a fresh 50 to PvP or the GTN as the only means to gear up w/o a dedicated group running them through. I suppose you can trot out the old "If you aren't raiding what you need gear for?" excuse, but this is even worse in Ops. I've been raiding for a couple weeks, half the raid has Rakata the other half still has some greens... so half wants to do EC normal while the other half is barely able to finish EV hard... The Rakata guys geared up back when they hit 50 2 days after they got the game. Even back then finding FP groups was hard, now it's basically impossible. Adding a third tier of FPs (which I guess the Rakghoul ones technically already are) would only cause more headaches bc then you don't have a reason to go to normal mode or hard mode FPs.

 

This!!! Adding new tiers of difficulty to the current Flaspoints will only hurt the game in the long run...

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And after all have done Nightmare Mode on all Flashpoints, then what? we will have the same freaking discussion all over again...

 

There are several ways to encourage people to repeat content... For me the solution comes from adding extra loot from the last boss chest or body... Large sum of credits, random mods, armoring, enhancements, hilts, barrels, ear pieces, implants, relics, etc...

 

I have always said that the last boss loot from flashpoints was very poor... the only thing worthy from it was the armor piece... recipes that are bind on acquired that produces bind on craft items are a huge and stupid mistake!

 

I agree, nightmare modes of FPs would just add problems--and take a lot of development/tuning time.

 

My proposal, on the other hand, is quick to implement, and adds exactly what you suggest. Moreover, it appeals to players of (most) all gear levels at 50. Further, people would probably run the quest on their alts too. So it would really draw people in, which is what this game needs.

Edited by Mustelidaen
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