I will undoubtedly be flamed for this. But i have a question for everyone.

If you have internet/phone/cable together on a single bill and you are paying for it. You would undoubtedly be PISSED if your provider cut off your access in the name of maintenance for 4 hrs. And THEN simply didn't turn it back on for another 4 hrs or more because they failed to rectify a situation they CREATED in the first place. You pay for a service and you expect to be able to use that service in a manner consistent with the agreement you made.

The last couple of years though, the gaming community has given developers a free pass. We have consistently allowed them to push incomplete/hastily developed and untested content to us that inevitable crashes the service we are paying for and then flame anyone who complains about it. If a mechanic working on you truck/car put in a part that caused it to break down on the side of the road you'd be absolutely PISSED and EXPECT it to be FIXED ASAP (and for free) and then never go back to that mechanic. Since when did that same level of failure become acceptable in the game community?

Now we all know i'm not going to stop playing SWTOR and neither are any of you. It just seems to me that developers now have an expectation that they can simply not provide us with the service we pay for in the name of "Maintenance" in order to fix issues they themselves created. And i would like to point out...this is a problem they CREATED by pushing a patch/update that was obviously not ready.

And now for all of you reading this...let the flaming begin.

I have read the agreement. and many others before it. I also don't take issue with the idea that down-time is needed to maintain the servers we play on and i'm perfectly willing to loose game time to do that maintenance.

But the current down-time isn't about maintenance. It's about a failure on BW's part to properly plan and implement an update to the service i'm paying for. I would have been perfectly happy waiting another month or two (or not getting it at all) for 1.2 if it meant it was implemented properly. But that isn't what happened here. And it's not what happens in other games (WoW, etc.) either.

Hiding a failure on the developers part to properly plan/test updates behind the 'agreement' is a cowards way out. Your entire argument makes it acceptable for game developers to fail to provide a service because of problems they themselves created. That to me doesn't seem like a problem on the developers end....it seems like a problem in the gaming community. We have allowed them to fail by not holding them accountable and flaming anyone that tries.

And it's not what happens in other games (WoW, etc.) either.

It absolutely is. WoW has a terrible track record for having to patch their patches. It comes with the genre. No amount of testing on earth can prepare developers for what happens when they patch it to live. That's all there is to it. **** happens.

You misunderstand or I didn't word it properly. Every game since MMO's began is guilty of it. SWTOR/WoW/EQ have failed to properly implement updates/patches and the gaming community simply puts up with it. Every MMO puts out content, suddenly realizes that the 'new' content is broken despite all the testing they SAY they did and servers go dark.

The response from the players is to flame those who call the developers out and point to the 'agreement' as a reason why they can fail on a massive scale and its perfectly acceptable. That to me seems very strange, especially since I think of no other area of my life where I would put up with that kind of treatment (<-- note i include myself among the list of people who are simply willing to tolerate situations like this).

Don't get me wrong. I will not stop playing, neither do I expect to get free days of play for this (its actually mildly insulting to offer or ask for that in the first place imo). I simply expect a certain level of competence when it comes to providing a service I pay for.

p.s. - i realize that **** happens and you can't prepare for everything. However, you can mitigate issues with proper planning. Like saving a backup..or implementing more stringent testing procedures prior to live release, etc.

We get a free day of game play because of this.

Also, the reason we don't put up with this in other areas of life is because they matter...If my car explodes due to bad mechanical work I die, or am late for work, or am stranded somewhere...this is a video game! Go do something in real life for a day, not a big deal.

We get a free day of game play because of this.

 

Also, the reason we don't put up with this in other areas of life is because they matter...If my car explodes due to bad mechanical work I die, or am late for work, or am stranded somewhere...this is a video game! Go do something in real life for a day, not a big deal.

See previous post concerning how insulting it is to be offered a free day please.

As for the second point. Why do people automatically turn to the Real Life vs a Game argument? As if playing a game doesn't constitute doing something in real life? So would it be more real if i watched a cable show? unless of course the cable that i pay for goes out..in that case, its not real life either is it? or if my bicycle breaks? Naa...that's not REAL LIFE either cause biking is just transportation isn't it? Or if i go for a walk, would that constitute real life in your opinion?....hmm...better not go there...what if someones paralyzed and can't walk...shall we tell them they can't have a REAL LIFE cause they can't do the things you consider to be REAL?

REAL LIFE is what you choose to do with your time...no matter what that may be. For some its walking in a park..for others its playing a video game. Perhaps you should try a different argument.

MMOs are a technically extremly difficult terrain for developers. The player base with its impatience is the absolute and real cause for it. The developers of all said companys are absolutely proficient, but as the preposter said, there is no perparation for an Patch'es impact on a Game which is played by MILLIONS. You cannot simply comprehend what weird issues and errors can happen at that end.

That beeing said, im absolutely positively surprised from Biowares admitting and handling of the worst error cause.

-> They did refund you the day (most p2p mmos dont do that at any cost)

-> They keep us clear and provide estimates

That beeing said, alot other games had faaaar more errors/downtimes/bugs/other inconveniences then Star Wars has.

sincerly,

I'm sorry OP but I have to ask what your credentials are that you seem to know so much about what goes on behind the scenes at BioWare. You said, and I quote,

You misunderstand or I didn't word it properly. Every game since MMO's began is guilty of it. SWTOR/WoW/EQ have failed to properly implement updates/patches and the gaming community simply puts up with it. Every MMO puts out content, suddenly realizes that the 'new' content is broken despite all the testing they SAY they did and servers go dark.

Now let's break that up a little shall we? "EVERY GAME...FAILED TO PROPERLY IMPLEMENT..." How did they fail to implement something? They gave us a time frame, they stuck to it, they sent out the patch, the update happened. This is not a failure. Keep reading before you flame.

"NEW CONTENT IS BROKEN DESPITE ALL THE TESTING THEY SAY THEY DID..."

Obviously, you have no credentials as a game designer/developer.

Testing isn't perfect. You can get all the internal people you want to test something, but the day it goes live in a game like this, there are people who will try to break it. THIS IS A GOOD THING! Testers aren't perfect, far from it. So when a patch goes live, and the community finds errors and introduces random faults due to a varience in machine specs, internet connection speeds, button mashing combos, some player finding a hole in the world and wreaking havok, etc. Well, then, BioWare needs to fix these things don't you think?

That is what they are doing. I'm sorry you feel that your $15.00 a month is wasted but c'mon. This isn't the developer/designer fail to plan or implement. This is the result of said plan and implementation hitting live and falling into the hands of the community at large to then break.

Instead of getting mad at the mechanic that "fixed your car and didn't do it right" get mad at the designer and developer of the car for it breaking in the first place.

Or better yet, do a turn as an aircraft maintainer with brand new aircraft straight from the factory breaking down in transit due to pilot error. But no. You're too high and mighty to think that a break in service like this caused by a random variable that couldn't have been planned for.

For the short version: OP has a myopic view of the gaming industry as a whole and wants everything now now now now now.

It absolutely is. WoW has a terrible track record for having to patch their patches. It comes with the genre. No amount of testing on earth can prepare developers for what happens when they patch it to live. That's all there is to it. **** happens.

Yes WoW has problems, but they often credit player accounts with gametime for extended outages.

I will undoubtedly be flamed for this. But i have a question for everyone.

 

If you have internet/phone/cable together on a single bill and you are paying for it. You would undoubtedly be PISSED if your provider cut off your access in the name of maintenance for 4 hrs. And THEN simply didn't turn it back on for another 4 hrs or more because they failed to rectify a situation they CREATED in the first place. You pay for a service and you expect to be able to use that service in a manner consistent with the agreement you made.

 

The last couple of years though, the gaming community has given developers a free pass. We have consistently allowed them to push incomplete/hastily developed and untested content to us that inevitable crashes the service we are paying for and then flame anyone who complains about it. If a mechanic working on you truck/car put in a part that caused it to break down on the side of the road you'd be absolutely PISSED and EXPECT it to be FIXED ASAP (and for free) and then never go back to that mechanic. Since when did that same level of failure become acceptable in the game community?

 

Now we all know i'm not going to stop playing SWTOR and neither are any of you. It just seems to me that developers now have an expectation that they can simply not provide us with the service we pay for in the name of "Maintenance" in order to fix issues they themselves created. And i would like to point out...this is a problem they CREATED by pushing a patch/update that was obviously not ready.

 

And now for all of you reading this...let the flaming begin.

How about suing your local government when they have to dig up a road to fix a buster water pipe. After all, you HAVE to drive on that road to get to work and they DID put the pipe there.

I will undoubtedly be flamed for this. But i have a question for everyone.

 

If you have internet/phone/cable together on a single bill and you are paying for it. You would undoubtedly be PISSED if your provider cut off your access in the name of maintenance for 4 hrs. And THEN simply didn't turn it back on for another 4 hrs or more because they failed to rectify a situation they CREATED in the first place. You pay for a service and you expect to be able to use that service in a manner consistent with the agreement you made.

 

The last couple of years though, the gaming community has given developers a free pass. We have consistently allowed them to push incomplete/hastily developed and untested content to us that inevitable crashes the service we are paying for and then flame anyone who complains about it. If a mechanic working on you truck/car put in a part that caused it to break down on the side of the road you'd be absolutely PISSED and EXPECT it to be FIXED ASAP (and for free) and then never go back to that mechanic. Since when did that same level of failure become acceptable in the game community?

 

Now we all know i'm not going to stop playing SWTOR and neither are any of you. It just seems to me that developers now have an expectation that they can simply not provide us with the service we pay for in the name of "Maintenance" in order to fix issues they themselves created. And i would like to point out...this is a problem they CREATED by pushing a patch/update that was obviously not ready.

 

And now for all of you reading this...let the flaming begin.

Has your power ever went out?

I'm sorry OP but I have to ask what your credentials are that you seem to know so much about what goes on behind the scenes at BioWare. You said, and I quote,

 

 

Now let's break that up a little shall we? "EVERY GAME...FAILED TO PROPERLY IMPLEMENT..." How did they fail to implement something? They gave us a time frame, they stuck to it, they sent out the patch, the update happened. This is not a failure. Keep reading before you flame.

 

"NEW CONTENT IS BROKEN DESPITE ALL THE TESTING THEY SAY THEY DID..."

 

Obviously, you have no credentials as a game designer/developer.

 

Testing isn't perfect. You can get all the internal people you want to test something, but the day it goes live in a game like this, there are people who will try to break it. THIS IS A GOOD THING! Testers aren't perfect, far from it. So when a patch goes live, and the community finds errors and introduces random faults due to a varience in machine specs, internet connection speeds, button mashing combos, some player finding a hole in the world and wreaking havok, etc. Well, then, BioWare needs to fix these things don't you think?

 

That is what they are doing. I'm sorry you feel that your $15.00 a month is wasted but c'mon. This isn't the developer/designer fail to plan or implement. This is the result of said plan and implementation hitting live and falling into the hands of the community at large to then break.

 

So according to this, they introduced the update knowing it would break the servers? They planned on this happening? If what you are saying is true (since you must obviously be a programmer given your statements above) then why did they not have a plan in place to roll-back the update if a catastrophic failure happened? According to the above not only are they complicit in the game issues but they knew in advance what would happen and failed to plan appropriately for it?

 

Instead of getting mad at the mechanic that "fixed your car and didn't do it right" get mad at the designer and developer of the car for it breaking in the first place.

 

The Mechanic as you put it..didn't fix an already existing issue. He ADDED parts. Therefore, the fault lies with the mechanic (or developers in this case) for not properly installing and/or performing quality control on the equipment.

 

Or better yet, do a turn as an aircraft maintainer with brand new aircraft straight from the factory breaking down in transit due to pilot error. But no. You're too high and mighty to think that a break in service like this caused by a random variable that couldn't have been planned for.

 

This is just silly. SWTOR was working just fine prior to the patch that was pushed out. There was no "pilot error" involved since the core issue is in the coding of the game itself and how it interacted with the patch update. If your reference is taken at face value, then the original engineer is at fault (which would still be the developer in this case) and not the pilot at all. Pilot error would indicate individual issues and not something that would cause entire servers to be brought down.

 

For the short version: OP has a myopic view of the gaming industry as a whole and wants everything now now now now now.

The last is pretty much what I expected. Insult the poster rather than deal with the underlying issue.

No programmer/developer plans to have a game update crash their game. That is the reason they test and invite people to play on test servers. Errors are going to happen, that is beyond argument, but the scope of those errors is what matters. In this instance and many others from previous games, the developers were hasty in releasing patches/updates and FAILED to properly prepare those the inevitable issues that come with such large game updates.

And in typical fashion, everyone talks about how difficult it is the code/program an MMO and immediately flames and insults anyone who even suggests that maybe...just maybe...the developers should take a little more time to properly vet their updates so that the issues that do come up aren't of a magnitude to crash the game and require endless patches to thier patches.

I'm sorry OP but I have to ask what your credentials are that you seem to know so much about what goes on behind the scenes at BioWare. You said, and I quote,

 

 

Now let's break that up a little shall we? "EVERY GAME...FAILED TO PROPERLY IMPLEMENT..." How did they fail to implement something? They gave us a time frame, they stuck to it, they sent out the patch, the update happened. This is not a failure. Keep reading before you flame.

 

"NEW CONTENT IS BROKEN DESPITE ALL THE TESTING THEY SAY THEY DID..."

 

Obviously, you have no credentials as a game designer/developer.

 

Testing isn't perfect. You can get all the internal people you want to test something, but the day it goes live in a game like this, there are people who will try to break it. THIS IS A GOOD THING! Testers aren't perfect, far from it. So when a patch goes live, and the community finds errors and introduces random faults due to a varience in machine specs, internet connection speeds, button mashing combos, some player finding a hole in the world and wreaking havok, etc. Well, then, BioWare needs to fix these things don't you think?

 

That is what they are doing. I'm sorry you feel that your $15.00 a month is wasted but c'mon. This isn't the developer/designer fail to plan or implement. This is the result of said plan and implementation hitting live and falling into the hands of the community at large to then break.

 

Instead of getting mad at the mechanic that "fixed your car and didn't do it right" get mad at the designer and developer of the car for it breaking in the first place.

 

Or better yet, do a turn as an aircraft maintainer with brand new aircraft straight from the factory breaking down in transit due to pilot error. But no. You're too high and mighty to think that a break in service like this caused by a random variable that couldn't have been planned for.

 

 

 

For the short version: OP has a myopic view of the gaming industry as a whole and wants everything now now now now now.

And in typical fashion, everyone talks about how difficult it is the code/program an MMO and immediately flames and insults anyone who even suggests that maybe...just maybe...the developers should take a little more time to properly vet their updates so that the issues that do come up aren't of a magnitude to crash the game and require endless patches to thier patches.

You focused on the extremes of my post rather than reading between the lines. To be blunt, simple, and brutally honest then:

How do you know what BioWare is doing and what their standards are for testing? You don't claim to work for them so you obviously can't know. You have no idea how much time and effort any designer puts into a patch. Doesn't matter what game or what company, you really don't know how long the testing has been going on, by whom, or what they are testing in each individual phase.

You propose that they spend more time testing and troubleshooting. Here is the reality. No matter how much time they spend, it is impossible to account for every variance that can possibly occur. If you can't account for a variance, you have no idea how it will affect a system. Once player crashing on the East coast because his little sister pulled the cord out of the wall could cause a crash that cascades the servers. If the plug had been pulled 2 seconds later, no problem. But if the timing is perfect, it can cause huge issues. And there is NO WAY to account for all those random events. Thats why they are random.

The true underlying issue isn't that BioWare failed. The true underlying issue is that we live in an imperfect world. Blame your personal higher power if you have one.

To put this in perspective pull out a chess board if you have one. Grab a notebook. Get ten moves into the game. Now write down EVERY possible move you could make no matter how silly it may seem strategically. Got that done? Now choose the first move you wrote down and then figure out all the possible moves your opponent could make regardless of strategy. Do this for every possible move, and then project 3 moves ahead.

It gets complicated quick doesn't it? How long and how many moves do you think you could keep track of before you missed something and had to start again? Spend a month doing this. Then two. Then three. When do you finally call it quits and say, "I've got 95% of all possible variances. Let's put it out there and see how they break it because I can't keep track any more. I need new data."

Thats what BioWare, or any developer does. It IS complicated. Its supposed to be. That doesn't excuse you saying that your expectation is any more right or wrong than the rest. saying we, the community of MMO players, have given the industry carte blanche to "get away" with this is bogus. We aren't "letting" them get away with anything. We are understanding of a complex system that is bound to have unexpected results that need require tweaking to make the whole work again.

And no, not a fanboy. Just someone who understands the unforseen in an MMO is going to result in a patch of a patch. Defending BioWare and other developers makes me a realist.