I pretend Olag is a dev or the game's community manager and consider what he writes as what they would write if they were communicating to us.

If anything, I can pretend to have some sort of explanation from someone that seems to indicate they know what the devs are doing, and his explanation of the game's design goals are explained in ways I am unable to come up with on my own. I don't get angry at him anymore, I appreciate reading a totally alien perspective on what is going on here, even though it doesn't make much sense to me.

I find his explanations often faulty and proven false in many cases just by looking at the history of past changes and the effects these changes have had on the game's population. Often times these changes coincide with large dropoffs of the population so I only can say it's not coincidence but a direct correlation.

For instance, he viewed the changes to conquest as successful, he made sense of them while no matter how he sliced it I only could see the changes to conquest as bad. We lost players after the conquest gutting, so in my mind I have proof this change was bad for the game.

Olag also supported the 5.0 gearing change, he views it as a success while I view it as the worst update/patch in the game's history. I personally quit for nearly 2 years after that change, and I know many PVPers also quit the game after 5.0. This proves to me the update 5.0 was not a good business decision and hurt the game seeing the population took a big hit after 5.0.

I believe the actual devs and people creating the design goals for this game probably have the same vision he sees when they look at their changes to the game. They must live in an echo chamber, never pulling their heads out to see what the climate actually is amongst the players who play their game.

I see mistakes and a dwindling population that keeps shrinking more and more and it's not a natural dropping off of population it's directly related to poorly thought out changes to the game that make it less enjoyable for many of the players.

I can't provide hard data or irrefutable proof that my opinion is the truth regarding how many of the changes to the game have been bad for the game, but a person can tell when it's hot outside without reading a thermometer to tell them it's over 100 degrees.

I pretend Olag is a dev or the game's community manager and consider what he writes as what they would write if they were communicating to us.

 

If anything, I can pretend to have some sort of explanation from someone that seems to indicate they know what the devs are doing, and his explanation of the game's design goals are explained in ways I am unable to come up with on my own. I don't get angry at him anymore, I appreciate reading a totally alien perspective on what is going on here, even though it doesn't make much sense to me.

 

I find his explanations often faulty and proven false in many cases just by looking at the history of past changes and the effects these changes have had on the game's population. Often times these changes coincide with large dropoffs of the population so I only can say it's not coincidence but a direct correlation.

 

For instance, he viewed the changes to conquest as successful, he made sense of them while no matter how he sliced it I only could see the changes to conquest as bad. We lost players after the conquest gutting, so in my mind I have proof this change was bad for the game.

 

Olag also supported the 5.0 gearing change, he views it as a success while I view it as the worst update/patch in the game's history. I personally quit for nearly 2 years after that change, and I know many PVPers also quit the game after 5.0. This proves to me the update 5.0 was not a good business decision and hurt the game seeing the population took a big hit after 5.0.

 

I believe the actual devs and people creating the design goals for this game probably have the same vision he sees when they look at their changes to the game. They must live in an echo chamber, never pulling their heads out to see what the climate actually is amongst the players who play their game.

 

I see mistakes and a dwindling population that keeps shrinking more and more and it's not a natural dropping off of population it's directly related to poorly thought out changes to the game that make it less enjoyable for many of the players.

 

I can't provide hard data or irrefutable proof that my opinion is the truth regarding how many of the changes to the game have been bad for the game, but a person can tell when it's hot outside without reading a thermometer to tell them it's over 100 degrees.

So if i understand correctly, you formed an opinion out of thin air without any facts or data to support it, and instead use your "feelings" as your facts and feel that is sufficient instead of thinking through the reasons for changes to the game and population........ok, i think i see where the problem is.

BW isnt failing with this decision. The community is failing at understanding its purpose.

Then maybe BW should be here explaining it to us and having a two way conversation instead of remaining silent and relying on white knights to defend them

People really just need to stop replying to him...the forums would be better.

This...

convinced the devs walk on water.

This is Star Wars, not aquaman

Hmm strange there's no way any of us could be made aware of some of the reasoning behind their decisions. If only there was someone in charge of interfacing with the community, you know like a community manager! Oh wait...

Is that a thing though? I didn’t think gaming companies did that anymore. It’s so 2012

Except just because I do not NiM raid doesn't mean I should have to grind ten times more then NiM raiders.The grind should be the same for everyone. All new tiers of gear are for everyone at this stage of the game. Thinking otherwise is just silly. Just because someone doesn't need better gear doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to get it for all of the characters they play. The Days of NiM raiders getting the best gear went out the door a long time ago, especially since PvP, and PvE use the same gear now.

thats EXACTLY how it should be.

do harder content - get better rewards.

except in contrast to previos systems, people who dont want to or arnt able to do harder content still got a chance to get the best rewards. it just takes longer, which is totaly fine.

stop this i-want-it-all-and-now mentallity already, thats not how any of this works.

equality means everyone has the chance to raid NiM and get gear the fast way, its your choice if you don't.

(before that stupid argument comes up again: NO, nobody forces you to do stuff you dont want to. dont wanna raid NiM? fine, do it the easier but longer way than.)

thats EXACTLY how it should be.

do harder content - get better rewards.

except in contrast to previos systems, people who dont want to or arnt able to do harder content still got a chance to get the best rewards. it just takes longer, which is totaly fine.

 

stop this i-want-it-all-and-now mentallity already, thats not how any of this works.

equality means everyone has the chance to raid NiM and get gear the fast way, its your choice if you don't.

 

(before that stupid argument comes up again: NO, nobody forces you to do stuff you dont want to. dont wanna raid NiM? fine, do it the easier but longer way than.)

You failed to see my point. PvP'ers, NiM raiders, and the rest of the PvE community should all have the same grind. So if it takes a NiM raider 20 weeks to grind a full set of 258's, it should take ALL of us 20 weeks of grinding. No one group should be quicker.

As much as I disagree with him I still read his posts because sometimes a differing perspective can be enlightening, in different ways. I also consider the possibility his perspective is similar to those of the devs, and that makes it more interesting for me to read his posts. My ego prefers to find posts in agreement with my own, but it's good to stick my head out of the echo chamber sometimes.

I absolutely understand this perspective - I always read opinions I don't share first because, like you said, it's an entirely different perspective...but in this case, I'm convinced it's an act.

I absolutely understand this perspective - I always read opinions I don't share first because, like you said, it's an entirely different perspective...but in this case, I'm convinced it's an act.

I would too if I could believe it was an actual opinion. it's too consistent that every.single.time.contrary. If we said the grass is green.... No it's not.

I would too if I could believe it was an actual opinion. it's too consistent that every.single.time.contrary. If we said the grass is green.... No it's not.

But but sometimes the grass is brown!

You failed to see my point. PvP'ers, NiM raiders, and the rest of the PvE community should all have the same grind. So if it takes a NiM raider 20 weeks to grind a full set of 258's, it should take ALL of us 20 weeks of grinding. No one group should be quicker.

Actually, unlike the first tease on the new gear where we were lead to believe it would only come from crafting... it is clear now that their are numerous pathways available.. and while they won't all be absolutely the same grind in terms of time and effort (there will be some differences, and it appears that NiM raiders may have it worst, depending on drop rates and OP difficulty) ... they do appear to be pretty close EXCEPT for the crafted pathway as it currently exists on PTS.

I actually think that PvP players in particular are still wound up from the first tease (gear from crafting) and have just never stepped back from there to think and evaluate all the different pathways objectively. Some are simply evaluating their chosen pathway and condemning it because it requires effort they personally would rather not apply to gain the gear. They want the gear, but they want to endlessly try to renegotiate the effort down to some trivial threshold.

Clearly.. the player that works multiple pathways will move at a faster pace (as will the player that leverages alts) .. but that approach IS open to every player... so the only player suffering will be the intractable player that will simply not approach multiple pathways.. which is their choice and they get the results of that choice.

But honestly.. this is Largely like a 5% problem for the player base because probably 95% of players either don't need the gear or don't feel the return on effort is worth it. Yet the tail is very actively trying to wag the dog in the forum discussions. In this regard.. the new gear is actually an objective intelligence test for the player base.... yet it is a test the players are trying to complete through emotions. And I am pretty sure the 5% at the top of the need/demand curve know (even if they won't admit it) that BiS is meant to be a chore to acquire.. and their play style drives them to prioritize their efforts to realize the gain desired. We can all debate the degree of "chore" but there will never be consensus because some MMO players actually do feel everything should fall from low hanging tree branches, yet other players actually do embrace the BiS is a focus effort in MMOs if you want the BiS.

thats EXACTLY how it should be.

do harder content - get better rewards.

except in contrast to previos systems, people who dont want to or arnt able to do harder content still got a chance to get the best rewards. it just takes longer, which is totaly fine.

 

stop this i-want-it-all-and-now mentallity already, thats not how any of this works.

equality means everyone has the chance to raid NiM and get gear the fast way, its your choice if you don't.

 

(before that stupid argument comes up again: NO, nobody forces you to do stuff you dont want to. dont wanna raid NiM? fine, do it the easier but longer way than.)

Well, you are wrong with everything you said here, congrats on that. The hard part about doing NiM raid is getting the team together, thats it. Content isn't harder if you have an expert group. So where's the harder solo content you could do that would take the same amount of time???? eh? Small guilds do not have a huge pool of expert raiders to simply form a group, nor do they have even enough raiders to approach that. And really, the only other hard thing about that is forcing 100%-PvPers to do something they hate. So where is the PvP only way to get the gear in the same amount of time????? I swear PvEers are such nabs when addressing the issues of PvPers.

It took 2 weeks to get full PvP gear in 4.x, and raiders still had the best gear but were not able to trounce PvPers with it. (because of expertise). So, to correct you, PvPers do not want everything now, but in 2 weeks by JUST doing PvP, yes sir. The failed point of 5.x was to allow Raiders to dabble in PvP and PvPers to dabble in raids. It was a good goal, but we continue to break farther away from that.

The gearing system should not be PvEer versus PvPers, thats just dumb. Gearing should work for both equally, and not by artificially WEIGHING how long it takes to gear by a false notion of whats HARD. If I had 7 expert raiders in my guild looking for an 8th, it would be the easiest thing in the world to go raiding. What is HARD is for small groups to do any raid content at all. Instead the gearing paradigm needs to change so PvEers, PvPers, Small and Large guilders, and solo players all feel the gearing system is fair.

And tell you what, if you are a PvEer, and are thinking about posting your "solution" to a PvPer ONLY issue like gearing, and your "solution" that will save the PvP universe is "Uhm, doh, gearing works fine for PVEers so you guys should just accept it...." You have no reason to post, nor have you any thing to offer to fix the issue. Go away.

Actually, unlike the first tease on the new gear where we were lead to believe it would only come from crafting... it is clear now that their are numerous pathways available.. and while they won't all be absolutely the same grind in terms of time and effort (there will be some differences, and it appears that NiM raiders may have it worst, depending on drop rates and OP difficulty) ... they do appear to be pretty close EXCEPT for the crafted pathway as it currently exists on PTS.

 

I actually think that PvP players in particular are still wound up from the first tease (gear from crafting) and have just never stepped back from there to think and evaluate all the different pathways objectively. Some are simply evaluating their chosen pathway and condemning it because it requires effort they personally would rather not apply to gain the gear. They want the gear, but they want to endlessly try to renegotiate the effort down to some trivial threshold.

 

Clearly.. the player that works multiple pathways will move at a faster pace (as will the player that leverages alts) .. but that approach IS open to every player... so the only player suffering will be the intractable player that will simply not approach multiple pathways.. which is their choice and they get the results of that choice.

 

But honestly.. this is Largely like a 5% problem for the player base because probably 95% of players either don't need the gear or don't feel the return on effort is worth it. Yet the tail is very actively trying to wag the dog in the forum discussions. In this regard.. the new gear is actually an objective intelligence test for the player base.... yet it is a test the players are trying to complete through emotions. And I am pretty sure the 5% at the top of the need/demand curve know (even if they won't admit it) that BiS is meant to be a chore to acquire.. and their play style drives them to prioritize their efforts to realize the gain desired. We can all debate the degree of "chore" but there will never be consensus because some MMO players actually do feel everything should fall from low hanging tree branches, yet other players actually do embrace the BiS is a focus effort in MMOs if you want the BiS.

I just want to pvp on equal footing with everyone. Not NiM raiders or the multiple pathways guy who’s in full 258. I have absolutely no desire, or the time to endlessly grind for gear, do ops, ect. Why should I be punished for just doing what I enjoy in the game?

You failed to see my point. PvP'ers, NiM raiders, and the rest of the PvE community should all have the same grind. So if it takes a NiM raider 20 weeks to grind a full set of 258's, it should take ALL of us 20 weeks of grinding. No one group should be quicker.

Doesnt sound like mmos are your cup of tea, my friend.

I would too if I could believe it was an actual opinion. it's too consistent that every.single.time.contrary. If we said the grass is green.... No it's not.

Again, the lack of perspective. You dont see me being contrarian to all topics, only those that i find arent understood or represented well by the community. If you have a fault in your logic, you may just see my name pop up under yours.

Well, you are wrong with everything you said here, congrats on that. The hard part about doing NiM raid is getting the team together, thats it. Content isn't harder if you have an expert group. So where's the harder solo content you could do that would take the same amount of time???? eh? Small guilds do not have a huge pool of expert raiders to simply form a group, nor do they have even enough raiders to approach that. And really, the only other hard thing about that is forcing 100%-PvPers to do something they hate. So where is the PvP only way to get the gear in the same amount of time????? I swear PvEers are such nabs when addressing the issues of PvPers.

 

It took 2 weeks to get full PvP gear in 4.x, and raiders still had the best gear but were not able to trounce PvPers with it. (because of expertise). So, to correct you, PvPers do not want everything now, but in 2 weeks by JUST doing PvP, yes sir. The failed point of 5.x was to allow Raiders to dabble in PvP and PvPers to dabble in raids. It was a good goal, but we continue to break farther away from that.

 

The gearing system should not be PvEer versus PvPers, thats just dumb. Gearing should work for both equally, and not by artificially WEIGHING how long it takes to gear by a false notion of whats HARD. If I had 7 expert raiders in my guild looking for an 8th, it would be the easiest thing in the world to go raiding. What is HARD is for small groups to do any raid content at all. Instead the gearing paradigm needs to change so PvEers, PvPers, Small and Large guilders, and solo players all feel the gearing system is fair.

 

And tell you what, if you are a PvEer, and are thinking about posting your "solution" to a PvPer ONLY issue like gearing, and your "solution" that will save the PvP universe is "Uhm, doh, gearing works fine for PVEers so you guys should just accept it...." You have no reason to post, nor have you any thing to offer to fix the issue. Go away.

You sound like the conquesters - always living in the past as though the old system was a good system because it gave things away easier. Both oldschool pvp and the pre 5.8 conquest system had obvious flaws associated with them, and thats why they were changed. Also keep in mind that the people who created those systems are long gone, so you can take that for what its worth.

I just want to pvp on equal footing with everyone. Not NiM raiders or the multiple pathways guy who’s in full 258. I have absolutely no desire, or the time to endlessly grind for gear, do ops, ect. Why should I be punished for just doing what I enjoy in the game?

The glass must be half empty for you.

Think of swtor as one giant master quest with sub-quests (pvp, pve, ops, strongholds, conquest, etc.)

If you complete ALL of the subquests, you get a large reward (lets say a legendary 258 piece of gear in 1 week)

But if you only complete ONE of the subquests, you get a small reward. After completing 7 of these small quests (of your choice), you get that same legendary 258 piece.

You arent being punished for doing what you want, you are being rewarded for doing more. Its a mattwr of perspective. Glass half full, or glass half empty.

You sound like the conquesters - always living in the past as though the old system was a good system because it gave things away easier.

Many conquest focused players left the game after the old system was gutted. I don't know if the old system was easier so much as it was more inclusive and rewarded alts by allotting points to all toons equally. I'd say even if the old system was easier, people did prefer that system. BW decided to forge a new design goal despite what the players overwhelmingly asked for and the game lost subs due to that choice on their part.

Both oldschool pvp and the pre 5.8 conquest system had obvious flaws associated with them, and thats why they were changed. Also keep in mind that the people who created those systems are long gone, so you can take that for what its worth.

Nothing is perfect, and even if they were flawed, the 4.0 gearing system as well as the 5.8 conquest system were viewed as mostly fun and successful. Just because a system is flawed doesn't mean the entire system ought to be gutted and destroyed with a totally different system. Sense would be to keep the parts that were good, and tweak the parts of said systems that were bad.

When the old PVP gearing system was gutted and replaced with a steep gear grind and "exciting" RNG crates were added the game lost subs. BW eventually walked back the grind but due to having no part left of the old gearing system they had to keep their RNG crate-fest which has been universally panned as awful.

Let's just be honest, it's bad. Even after tweaking and walking back some of the steep gear grind, the new system is hardly inspiring and still isn't nearly as alt-friendly as it's predecessor was.

Anyone that played SWTOR during 4.0 can compare the gearing system then to the one they have now and there's no question the older was far superior to the new RNG-super-grindy-non-alt-playing system in place now.

I don't know of one person, not one that has said the RNG crates and new gearing system is an improvement over 4.0, not one. The drop of game subs proves my point too.

People don't quit a game en masse when they love a new gearing system, they only quit a game en masse when a super-shoddy unenjoyable gearing system is added to a game. Which is what happened.

Same thing with the new conquest system. Utterly missed the mark with 5.8. And the result was making a ton of players that once enjoyed conquest apathetic at best and irate/disappointed at worst which lead to people quitting the game.

We can pretend the new changes are making the game better, but success is the ultimate truth bearer; and well, sadly the immense number of drops in population on SWTOR would indicate to me the game is not nearly as successful as it once was.

Game changing alterations are to blame for that, or as you say perhaps the people that once were creating the most successful moments of SWTOR are gone and we ought to blame the people who replaced them?

You failed to see my point. PvP'ers, NiM raiders, and the rest of the PvE community should all have the same grind. So if it takes a NiM raider 20 weeks to grind a full set of 258's, it should take ALL of us 20 weeks of grinding. No one group should be quicker.

no, i think you missed my point here:

NiM Content is way harder than PVP at every aspect. getting a good group, organization, learning new mechanics, etc., hence better reward.

Well, you are wrong with everything you said here, congrats on that. The hard part about doing NiM raid is getting the team together, thats it. Content isn't harder if you have an expert group. So where's the harder solo content you could do that would take the same amount of time???? eh? Small guilds do not have a huge pool of expert raiders to simply form a group, nor do they have even enough raiders to approach that. And really, the only other hard thing about that is forcing 100%-PvPers to do something they hate. So where is the PvP only way to get the gear in the same amount of time????? I swear PvEers are such nabs when addressing the issues of PvPers.

 

It took 2 weeks to get full PvP gear in 4.x, and raiders still had the best gear but were not able to trounce PvPers with it. (because of expertise). So, to correct you, PvPers do not want everything now, but in 2 weeks by JUST doing PvP, yes sir. The failed point of 5.x was to allow Raiders to dabble in PvP and PvPers to dabble in raids. It was a good goal, but we continue to break farther away from that.

 

The gearing system should not be PvEer versus PvPers, thats just dumb. Gearing should work for both equally, and not by artificially WEIGHING how long it takes to gear by a false notion of whats HARD. If I had 7 expert raiders in my guild looking for an 8th, it would be the easiest thing in the world to go raiding. What is HARD is for small groups to do any raid content at all. Instead the gearing paradigm needs to change so PvEers, PvPers, Small and Large guilders, and solo players all feel the gearing system is fair.

 

And tell you what, if you are a PvEer, and are thinking about posting your "solution" to a PvPer ONLY issue like gearing, and your "solution" that will save the PvP universe is "Uhm, doh, gearing works fine for PVEers so you guys should just accept it...." You have no reason to post, nor have you any thing to offer to fix the issue. Go away.

NiM content is easy? why dont you get into some quick clear runs and gear in 1 week then?

i'm sure a pro player like you would have a warm welcome in any group. shouldnt bother you anyway, since you would clear it that fast, you dont have to grind this easy borring content for long and can get back to the REAL endgame: PVP. no reason to complain about pvp gearing in firstplace.

no mate seriously, nearly everything YOU said is wrong.

first of all: there is no such thing like "PVP related" problems if it comes to gearing.

everybody is given the same chance to gear by multiple methods. if you dont want to use all of them, you are creating your own problem.

the argument of small guilds not having enough players to raid NiM is brought up since forever, yet its so wrong. you are not *********** bound to the guild to create a raidgroup. merge guilds, create groups across many different guilds, organize via social media, websites, whatsapp. do i really have to provide a "how-to-find-friends"- tutorial here??!

(couldnt do that anyway, since i obvsly not gonna get new ones in the forums, because truth hurts...)

aaaand since you just ignored my point while ranting: NO pvp and pve should NOT have the same way to gear up:, harder content = better rewards.

not saying any sm gf op grinder should get 258 faster than pvp players, but GotM NiM raiders should.

and we already had these false accusations of people not knowong what they are talking about, since they dont full time pvp. neither are they valid, nor does it give anyone the power to tell anyone what hes allowed to talk about. wont gonna get into that again.

Honeslty guys, why do you keep biting?

Because some people seek knowledge and perspective. Do you?

no, i think you missed my point here:

 

NiM Content is way harder than PVP at every aspect. getting a good group, organization, learning new mechanics, etc., hence better reward.

 

NiM content is easy? why dont you get into some quick clear runs and gear in 1 week then?

i'm sure a pro player like you would have a warm welcome in any group. shouldnt bother you anyway, since you would clear it that fast, you dont have to grind this easy borring content for long and can get back to the REAL endgame: PVP. no reason to complain about pvp gearing in firstplace.

 

no mate seriously, nearly everything YOU said is wrong.

first of all: there is no such thing like "PVP related" problems if it comes to gearing.

everybody is given the same chance to gear by multiple methods. if you dont want to use all of them, you are creating your own problem.

 

the argument of small guilds not having enough players to raid NiM is brought up since forever, yet its so wrong. you are not *********** bound to the guild to create a raidgroup. merge guilds, create groups across many different guilds, organize via social media, websites, whatsapp. do i really have to provide a "how-to-find-friends"- tutorial here??!

 

(couldnt do that anyway, since i obvsly not gonna get new ones in the forums, because truth hurts...)

 

aaaand since you just ignored my point while ranting: NO pvp and pve should NOT have the same way to gear up:, harder content = better rewards.

not saying any sm gf op grinder should get 258 faster than pvp players, but GotM NiM raiders should.

 

and we already had these false accusations of people not knowong what they are talking about, since they dont full time pvp. neither are they valid, nor does it give anyone the power to tell anyone what hes allowed to talk about. wont gonna get into that again.

You're right. This discussion is stupid. Nim players do more, as people die down the weekly. And I do not play Nim.

As I've already written, I do not mind if PVPers get something. But definitely not as much as Nim player.

Keith and Co. do not seem to be interested in this discussion. Otherwise, there would be a little feedback. For example: "We will think of something."

Keith and Co. do not seem to be interested in this discussion. Otherwise, there would be a little feedback. For example: "We will think of something."

And rightfully so. Why destroy the integrity of the game system because a few people are vocal?

Keith and Co. do not seem to be interested in this discussion. Otherwise, there would be a little feedback. For example: "We will think of something."

I don't expect Keith and Co. to jump into the forums and respond to players. That's a delegated responsibility of the community manager.

Fact is Keith and Co. might not have any idea that this subject matter has been talked about as much as it has.