Not sure if this goes here because it discusses real life things but...

 

We all know that according to lore Jedi are taught to keep calm and level headed in battle. While the Sith use anger and hatred in battle, losing control of their passions to give them strength.

 

Physiologically there significant benefits in entering into a mental state of rage. For an untrained fighter this can help you as it will release adrenaline, make you a more vicious fighter, and increases your tolerance to pain.

 

When I played high school football the coaches would encourage players, defensive players especially to unleash their aggression (I'm sure many coaches do this). It can make players more ruthless and stronger. You have no fear, have a strong desire/less reluctant to inflict harm, and no concern of you're own safety. The adrenaline rush and state of rage can enhance your own physical abilities substantially. These things can very well give you the advantage in a combat situation. But keep in mind my example is football not combat. Besides, I found my performance to be better when staying calm.

 

However, in any hand to hand combat training you receive in RL you will always be taught to control your emotions and stay calm. It is taught that becoming emotional and entering into a state of extreme anger will cause your technique to get sloppy, you'll get tunnel vision when you need your peripherals, you'll be more prone to making mistakes, and finally become reckless in a situation where the stakes are high. Almost all trained fighters always try to keep calm during a fight. Going back to my football example, while a state of rage can make you a more vicious player and enhance your physical abilities, a calm player has the advantage of making better split second decisions and having better peripheral vision (good players can keep track of the location and actions of multiple opponents at the same time which is necessary in football and combat).

 

Perhaps staying calm actually makes you a better fighter. Or maybe it is just taught because it fits in line with most Martial Arts philosophies, which is generally pacifism and combat only for defense (Jedi values). I believe it's both.

 

Also, in histories most successful armies, discipline and level headedness in combat was emphasized strongly. For example the Spartans, Roman Legions, the British. None of the soldiers in these armies would charge wildly in the fray. Well at least not at first. But there is also the Viking beserkers who did and these were feared warriors during their time.

 

Finally I realize the force in the Star Wars universe adds a whole new element.

 

Force aside, which fighting style do you think is actually better? With the force?

Edited December 13, 2011 by JackNimbyl

Excellent debate. I think, as you pointed out at the end. that the Force is the defining factor. In our reality calm is king however, in Star Wars where the Force guides you and provides a significant intuition advatage to trained fighters, the rage aspect is probably an advatange provided you can focus the dark side and listen to the intuition, not losing mental control of your abilities (E.G. Tunnel Vision).

 

-Soul

Edited December 13, 2011 by Soulicide

You could also look at it like this.

 

Anger = adrenaline = increased physical power

Calmness = clear-headedness = increased ability to think

 

Sith can soak up and dish out large amounts of punishment, whereas Jedi use better maneuvering and tactics during a fight.

When we're talking about Jedi-Sith combat tactics, we're not talking strictly about 'any unarmed to melee fighting technique' but specific ways to wield a lightsaber or Sith war sword or something along those lines. And not just that... but the use of Force powers and the Force itself to strengthen and guide one's movements. The Dark Side, the way I've always seen it, is channeling the Force quickly, aggressively, intuitively although I bet there are MANY Sith who spent their entire life smoothing their combat maneuvers and motions.

 

The Light Side always struck me as the mirror or the other side of the coin - with certain similarities. If both combatants draw on the Force to, say, partially predict how the battle might go, then in the end either raw strength or pure finesse will tip the balance. And that depends on the individual. In any case, I would be so bold as to suggest that rather than tunnel vision, the Force broadens a user's perspectives.

 

And as a good point about combat through loss of control? Berserkers have existed in many a land and culture. For a reason.

Yes, The Force is basically the difference between reality and Jedi v Sith lightsaber fights.

 

In almost any real fight the adrenaline from rage increases strength, speed, focus and allows the combatant to ignore all kinds of injury. In almost every case, unless completely outmatched in base strength or ability, the fighter full of rage with adrenaline flowing will beat the calm fighter, I believe. Ancient Samurai vs Samurai fights (and modern rule-heavy Martial Arts fights) may be the exception but such fights were so full of rules that calmness was requisite or you would be practically guaranteed to dishonour yourself by accidentally breaking one of them.

 

In Star Wars, a light Jedi listens to the Force and lets it help guide his actions, gaining limited precognition, which only a calm mind can hear properly. A Dark Jedi, alternatively, gains strength and speed through channelling the primal dark side of the Force, but bends the Force to his will, rather than letting it guide him. In such a case, I guess it is a toss-up as to which is "better".

Edited December 14, 2011 by Gridfire

 

The Light Side always struck me as the mirror or the other side of the coin - with certain similarities. If both combatants draw on the Force to, say, partially predict how the battle might go, then in the end either raw strength or pure finesse will tip the balance. And that depends on the individual. In any case, I would be so bold as to suggest that rather than tunnel vision, the Force broadens a user's perspectives.

 

 

I agree with this. In my opinion the Force would allow for all the shortcomings rage/anger bring to be null due to the Force is a guiding power. Thus making the Sith that much stronger, not only could they force the opponent into making moves that they want them to they would be able to physically overpower them once in the position they were forced into.

 

And as stated before they probably wouldn't be able to move quicker due to their opponent has also trained in the same art of combat with a different mindset. They would be just as elaborate in moving, they would just have a stronger passion to end the opponent and would have a strength advantage.

In some readings, a berserker does become like an enraged animal, completely without focus and fights with abandon. In others, a berserker enters a heightened state of awareness where the flow of time, to them, seems to slow. And while their actions seem, to the observer, to be random, they still have a definitive purpose.

 

Sith are taught to focus their passions. They don't truly let their passions govern them. Those that "lose control" are the ones that don't last long. Their anger/rage is focused, and amplified, by the Force. If I were to label a Sith Warrior with one of the above berserker types, I'd tend to think that they'd fall under the second example.

 

Jedi remind me of, as mentioned, samurai. Maintaining an inner peace, calm and focused. If they're attuned to the Force, they are granted the intuition needed to defeat their foes.

 

I have studied a few martial arts styles over the years, and have seen "hotheads" win competitions because they intimidated their opponents, or landed a lucky shot to tip the scales in their favor. But when they competed against someone that they couldn't intimidate, someone that was "at peace", they inevitably lost. I have also seen some that would try to provoke someone into anger so they would lose their focus - and those that lost their control would be defeated because they'd make a mistake.

 

What it would boil down to in a Jedi vs. Sith fight is like any other fight of equal opponents - the first to make a mistake would be the one to fall.

The trick to true strength in the Dark Side isn't just being angry, in fact hot, screaming anger actually seems detrimental. Cold, focused hatred is what the true Sith deal in.

 

In a way the Sith are calm in battle, it's just more "Tranquil Fury" than "Inner Peace."

Edited December 14, 2011 by Cyro

Yes, The Force is basically the difference between reality and Jedi v Sith lightsaber fights.

 

In almost any real fight the adrenaline from rage increases strength, speed, focus and allows the combatant to ignore all kinds of injury. In almost every case, unless completely outmatched in base strength or ability, the fighter full of rage with adrenaline flowing will beat the calm fighter, I believe. Ancient Samurai vs Samurai fights (and modern rule-heavy Martial Arts fights) may be the exception but such fights were so full of rules that calmness was requisite or you would be practically guaranteed to dishonour yourself by accidentally breaking one of them.

 

In Star Wars, a light Jedi listens to the Force and lets it help guide his actions, gaining limited precognition, which only a calm mind can hear properly. A Dark Jedi, alternatively, gains strength and speed through channelling the primal dark side of the Force, but bends the Force to his will, rather than letting it guide him. In such a case, I guess it is a toss-up as to which is "better".

 

I cant even start on how wrong you are...

 

You seem to be the only one who think adrenaline gives you focus...

 

your scenario is completely messed up too, I doubt you have any martial arts training, let alone fighting experience.

 

The "rage" fighter is not the "in almost every case a winner". A rage fighter against a calm untrained person...sure, course then you gotta take into account they would probably have beat up the untrained fighter anyway.

 

Now someone who has actually been taught to fight "correctly" (Just because you take tae kwon do does not make you a fighter) will stay calm and be able to actually think and move tactically...not full of rage and charging like a bull.

 

Please do some research before you speak.

 

Now on topic, Sith and Jedi are not seperated by rage and calm, many sith stay calm and enrage jedi so they will make a mistake. You see many Jedi lead with a rage while you see many sith lead with calmness throughout the movies, shows, cartoons, games...

 

There COULD have been a difference, but lets face it the creators of all the different media kinda ignored each other over the years.

You should look up the Juyo lightsaber combat style aka Vaapad.

 

It teaches Jedi to allow adrenaline and an enjoyment of battle to become more powerful. Its an interesting style in that it straddles this Jedi-Sith style debate.

 

I believe it was Mace Windu's preffered combat style.

The closest analog in real life would be a fight between two Kendo masters, one of whom has just realised the other has seduced both his wife and his daughter.

 

I have never seen such a fight occur, but in situations where one master is irritated or angry before a bout, that master has always lost, even though their skills are generally considered superior to their opponent.

 

If your anger stops you being "in the moment" for the fight, then you will lose - whether you are a Kendo master or a Sith Warrior.

Focused rage? An interesting concept. One that I cannot really fathom because I have never experienced it for myself. I always believed that Sith are trained to unleash all their rage in combat, going into something like a frenzy.

 

For an untrained fight vs. another untrained fighter, rage/adrenaline/frenzy will give you the advantage. But for a trained fighter, the best thing would be to stay calm.

were sort of touching on 2 topics here.

 

there is the ease and seductive nature of the dark side. it is very easy to get angry and fight , to let hate drive you to revenge and murder. its fast and easy power but its no road to success for either side.

Anarkin for all his power and ability is almost completely manipulated and controlled by the emperor exploiting his emotional nature.

 

And then you have the diametrically opposed attitudes of sith and jedi that actually approach a certain similarity at the top levels of mastery.

Both sides control their emotions the jedi seek to remove them and fight from a position of calm tranquility allowing the fight to flow. The Sith use their emotions like tools they are no more out of control than a jedi , a Sith may use his anger to press an advantage or use his hatred to endure but he is the master of his emotions every bit as much as the jedi.

 

Acceptance vs Control

Well there is a subtle detail about the view of the Sith on using your anger. Several powerful Sith have claimed (eg Vader) that you should use your anger in bursts, so that you can control it. The Sith knew that anger was your source to rely on, but it could easily turn into blind rage which was quite self-destructive and made the darksider blind for obvious dangers ('you underestimate my powers...lost his limbs).

 

Most of the times Jedi don't win because they overpower their Sith enemy, but because Sith are deliberately stupid and don't get the 'think before you act'-idea.

As someone who has studied martial art, I can personally attest to the fact that anger does nothing for one's prowess, and can cause you to botch more difficult techniques. I can also confirm that rage can cause you to turn off physical pain, and can cause your brain to activate more of your muscles when you move. That aside, I feel compelled to point something out about the nature of the Force and emotions, and the way the Sith and Jedi use them. While I do believe that calmness and clarity of focus can and does help Jedi when they fight, that is not the reason why they teach it.

 

The main reason that they teach this, aside from proper Jedi values, is that calmness and inner tranquility is a pathway to accessing the energies of the Light side of the Living Force, where a Jedi draws their true power from. This calmness is like a key that unlocks the gate. The same is true of the Sith and their unbridled passions releasing the power of the Dark side of the Living Force. Again, while a Sith would get some benefit from the rage itself, the rage, as peace is for the Jedi, just a means to an end. A lot of people will claim this marks a clear difference between the real world, and the Force of Star Wars, and in one sense it absolutely does.

 

That said, I don't necessarily agree with that particular line of thought, in and of itself. I do believe that inner calmness and tranquility causes a person to find something inside themselves that can push their abilities far beyond what should normally be even humanly possible. For a good example of this, one only has to look at the true story of Way of the Peaceful Warrior, or the movie, Peaceful Warrior.

Forget calmness, anger, focus, adrenaline etc. What makes a great fighter is when your totally spent you dig deep inside yourself and find that last ounce of energy and last drop of courage to see you through. I'll take a big heart and a large pair of brass ones against the force, light or dark, every time