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1.2 = best pvp gear for free, and no reason to play rated. people are quitting


fendergibson

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I very much understand the difference. I grew up on systems like SWG where there was actually a hybrid of both pvp and pve and player made gear (still the best system in my opinion). Then I graduated to WoW where, as I noted before, there was a gear progression system in "Ranked PvP" I enjoyed that too because it really struck a competitive chord in me and many other papers.

 

SWTOR is now poised to really become none of the above. Gear not for winning, just for participation, but not player made. Doled out to the masses, not very good in PvE, etc.

 

So if we really have moved into care bear mode as far as pvp gear progression, lets just up and admit that's where we are.

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I very much understand the difference. I grew up on systems like SWG where there was actually a hybrid of both pvp and pve and player made gear (still the best system in my opinion). Then I graduated to WoW where, as I noted before, there was a gear progression system in "Ranked PvP" I enjoyed that too because it really struck a competitive chord in me and many other papers.

 

SWTOR is now poised to really become none of the above. Gear not for winning, just for participation, but not player made. Doled out to the masses, not very good in PvE, etc.

 

So if we really have moved into care bear mode as far as pvp gear progression, lets just up and admit that's where we are.

 

I personally see having a bracket that creates gear gaps and calling it "competitive" as silly and backward.

 

Carebear mode is what existed prior to 1.1.2, when BMs were pretty much just steamrolling everyone because they got lucky w/ tokens, and there was literally nothing you could do about it due to RNG bags.

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SWTOR is now poised to really become none of the above. Gear not for winning, just for participation, but not player made. Doled out to the masses, not very good in PvE, etc.

 

So if we really have moved into care bear mode as far as pvp gear progression, lets just up and admit that's where we are.

 

Do we know there will be no gear for winning? It seems to me that they could very well take the wow approach with arenas. You rank up (most people in your rank with have similar or equivalent gear) and you get better gear at the next rank (where most people also have that better gear). The gear can be awarded as a function of performance where it is essentially moot because all others are that level are equally geared.

 

War hero is simply the "0" or starting point for gear in TOR. everyone gets it, everyone competes. Performance, and performance alone, will distribute players through ranks in a meaningful way. At this point, BW can very easily implement ranked gear requirements where all those who reach the rank have earned the gear. But it's important to note that the gear will be equal and thus irrelevant.

 

You can use the term care bear to assert a negative connotation, but the fact of the matter is that gear progression based on performance that ultimately offers no advantage against players of the same rank is the only gear progression worth having if your goal is compettive pvp.

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There needs to be some progression in MMO PvP, something to aim for. But these need to be status things (titles, cosmetic differences, anything that gives bragging rights) and not just ever more powerful gear. If you make it gear based, its just one never ending arms race.

 

Which is what many of us said - progression. It is a MMO by nature, not a single player game.

 

Two other problems though for which we continue to bring up. First, the gear disparity is a false statement because it is there for all to obtain. It has been patched in to make it easier. The entry even stated by the developers is easier than PvE. Other than handing it to you they really can't make it any easier. Furthermore, if people can't be bothered to do a whee bit of work of which is required now, then they won't do a bit more work to partake in anything rated....

 

The second issue is incentive. Titled have already been granted like skittles falling from the sky. Pull up your character and take a peek. Anyone who did the class quests, side quests, heroic quests, flashpoints, space, and even a bit of PvP have titles.

 

There isnt' a portal with stats for bragging rights. I don't know who killed the most, lost the most, highest hit, weakest hit. I don't know who is ganking people in the world more than others. We have nothing.

 

But we will have a unique color for which separates us apart :) And if you think this thread is bad - take a look at the ones about the 1.2 armor. Sheesh. Talking about heated discussions. If you can't do the armor looks right what makes you think they will actually get a color everyone can agree on???

 

Smuggler gear anyone? :(

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News flash, since you post in this thread constantly, and Ignore any opinion that ain't your own.

But most serious PVPers, have left this game already. This games PVP is horrid, and lacking content. 1.2 is Not gonna change that.

 

If you dont enjoy the pvp then stop playing now, gear grind will not change that

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Then more power to you because you can do that today and don't need a patch. By all means get your guild, hook up with the other faction and both of you guys can go pvp with nothing on but your loin cloth.

 

Once that is done, come back here and let me know how fun that is? Better yet to set the record straight you would first need to level 1 to 50 again and bypass all the datacrons so no one has a unfair advantage for your Utopia PvP session.

 

Let us face the reality here. People want stuff handed to them for little to no work. They expect to be able to be as good as someone who has played the game longer, learned the ins and outs of maps, other classes, and whatever else they may or may not have gained. How hard is this to understand? We've seen it in rated BG's in WoW, we have seen it in Arena's. People don't want to climb "ANY" ladder to better themselfs and use the excuse that they are out geared.

 

Never are they saying they suck, don't keybind, don't know how to LoS/Pillar Hump, etc. It is always the other person is cheating, out gearing them, or just a OP class / flavor of the month.

 

Bioware gave you everything you already wanted.

 

1. Remove Ilum

2. Moved Ilum dailies to warzones

3. Increased valor for first 4 medals

4. Allowed you to save 1000/1000 valor for 5 bags pre 50

5. Allowed you to purchase a bag pre 50 - in case you can't count - that is 6 bags @ 50

6. Centurion gear, champion gear, battlemaster gear

 

Now think about this for a minute the next time you login and visit the fleet. Look at the gear vending machines / npc's and look at the various gear. Then look at the stat difference. Then do some simple math (if you can) and you will see that there isn't a huge gap which people have been telling you before. Further more, with a whee bit of effort you can actually obtain said gear super EASY now that Bioware already PATCHED IN.

 

You just don't want to do the work. What is next - you want to remove datacrons because they give an unfair advantage? It isn't fair that I have +10 or more to my primary stats than you do? I'm at more health than you because I took the time to actually explore, google, or whatever I did in order to find them?

 

HELLO KITTY is that way - I suggest you try that because some of us don't want your kool-aid.

 

 

 

But why do you need superior gear to beat bad players in pvp?

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Stats will show who is good and who is bad. Win/Loss, Kills/Deaths, Damage/Healing and more. You will be able to see them just by inspecting a player. So good players will stand out and bad ones will also like a sore thumb.

 

Stats will be the way to show off your pvp skill not armor. I am cool with that cuz armor says nothing bad stats say it all.

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You're completely missing the entire reason you need to obtain better gear in PvE, as opposed to PvP.

 

Completely agree, I faceroll through operation with my guild every week, and I have no place to brag about my gear, Please Bioware stop implementing PvP gear so I can faceroll pvp noobs too!

 

Hey ok, you said we that aint possible... well ok... can I get PvP gear free so all my alts can have raid worthy gear? Oh wait... that'd ruin the entire game wouldn't it?

 

Hmmm can You let me afk in warzones and get gear instead, and let all this BS of ranks be "vanity"?

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They don't. They are saying that the gear needs to be there to work towards. PvP is only a means for them to the end of gear acquisition. They feel that MMOs are inextricably linked with the concept of continual item replacement.

 

It's interesting, because they also acknowledge that the gear is very easy to obtain. So here's how the logic is arranged:

 

Gear is needed to provide incentive to pvp. A corollary to this is that gear worth obtaining will always create some gap (they point out that the gap is negligible beyond the intial centurion grind, which is true in this case).

 

The incentive to pvp, then, would disappear once the gear is acquired (the point at which everyone is competitive).

 

They also point out that gear is easily obtained, and so everyone could compete if only they would put in a little time to acquire it.

 

It then follows that the very thing necessary to provide incentive (gear progression) is quickly exhausted. So by design, the thing they require to PvP is transient at best, and the point at which everyone becomes competitive is when the incentive disappears.

 

So the only way to maintain incentive is to add more gear progression. We then return to the top of the argument.

 

Gear worth obtaining is easily acquired and creates a gap. The incentive disappears once everyone is competitive again. New incentive provided by more gear.

 

Gear worth obtaining is easily acquired and creates a gap. The incentive disappears once everyone is competitive again. New incentive provided by more gear.

 

Gear worth obtaining is easily acquired and creates a gap. The incentive disappears once everyone is competitive again. New incentive provided by more gear.

 

...

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Completely agree, I faceroll through operation with my guild every week, and I have no place to brag about my gear, Please Bioware stop implementing PvP gear so I can faceroll pvp noobs too!

 

Hey ok, you said we that aint possible... well ok... can I get PvP gear free so all my alts can have raid worthy gear? Oh wait... that'd ruin the entire game wouldn't it?

 

Hmmm can You let me afk in warzones and get gear instead, and let all this BS of ranks be "vanity"?

 

You wouldn't face roll anyone if they used the bolster system at 50. You'd have the same stats as any othe player, and your skill in pvp would allow you to accrue a record of wins.

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They don't. They are saying that the gear needs to be there to work towards. PvP is only a means for them to the end of gear acquisition. They feel that MMOs are inextricably linked with the concept of continual item replacement.

 

It's interesting, because they also acknowledge that the gear is very easy to obtain. So here's how the logic is arranged:

 

Gear is needed to provide incentive to pvp. A corollary to this is that gear worth obtaining will always create some gap (they point out that the gap is negligible beyond the intial centurion grind, which is true in this case).

 

The incentive to pvp, then, would disappear once the gear is acquired (the point at which everyone is competitive).

 

They also point out that gear is easily obtained, and so everyone could compete if only they would put in a little time to acquire it.

 

It then follows that the very thing necessary to provide incentive (gear progression) is quickly exhausted. So by design, the thing they require to PvP is transient at best, and the point at which everyone becomes competitive is when the incentive disappears.

 

So the only way to maintain incentive is to add more gear progression. We then return to the top of the argument.

 

Gear worth obtaining is easily acquired and creates a gap. The incentive disappears once everyone is competitive again. New incentive provided by more gear.

 

Gear worth obtaining is easily acquired and creates a gap. The incentive disappears once everyone is competitive again. New incentive provided by more gear.

 

Gear worth obtaining is easily acquired and creates a gap. The incentive disappears once everyone is competitive again. New incentive provided by more gear.

 

...

 

And thus the "gear treadmill". We don't need it in PvP. I, for one, certainly don't want it.

 

PvP gear is there to make sure you can't just PvE and roflstomp everyone else w/ Operations gear, not to make you better than your fellow PvPers. Once you get all of it, it's not "the end and I have nothing to do", that's the beginning.

 

Now you're at equal stats and don't have to worry about PvErs smashing you w/ an unfair advantage, and your balanced against the rest of the PvPers so that skill/strategy can decide victories.

 

I can understand that you'd think the PvP is trash if you're only using it as a means to get gear and then feel like you "won" when you complete your set.

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Let us face the reality here. People want stuff handed to them for little to no work. They expect to be able to be as good as someone who has played the game longer, learned the ins and outs of maps, other classes, and whatever else they may or may not have gained. How hard is this to understand? We've seen it in rated BG's in WoW, we have seen it in Arena's. People don't want to climb "ANY" ladder to better themselfs and use the excuse that they are out geared.

 

Never are they saying they suck, don't keybind, don't know how to LoS/Pillar Hump, etc. It is always the other person is cheating, out gearing them, or just a OP class / flavor of the month.

 

Really? I thought you were smarter than this. Please take your straw man out of this forum.

 

I, nor the vast majority of people opposed to stat-based gear rewards, want "to be as good as someone who has played the game longer, learned the ins and outs of maps, other classes, and whatever else they may or may not have gained."

 

In fact, you are 100% wrong - we want exactly the opposite!

 

If you play a lot, then you should be a better, smarter player, and your increased skill/experience/technique should be your only advantage over the "lazy" players. In fact, if you have honed these skills, it is precisely why you do not need a gear advantage. I don't see anyone saying otherwise, well, other than you and your straw man.

 

Let me flip around your example of people who "don't keybind, don't know how to LoS/Pillar Hump, etc." These are the type of people we want to expose! If you suck, and your competition is on your equal gear level, you will be exposed. You can't hide behind huge RNG crits or health pools.

 

You can't assume that all people who grind are good and all people who don't are bad. There are good players who don't grind, and bad players who do grind, and vice versa.

 

Your example goes both ways - with equal gear, both the good players and the bad players will be revealed - neither the grinders nor the casuals will be able to hide behind gear. Sounds reasonable right?

 

That is why if you are arguing for a gear advantage, it makes you look like you fear being exposed.

Edited by Gadian
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There are two groups at work here though:

 

1) people who view it as a sport or competition

 

2) people who view it as a treadmill to get gear

 

This pretty much sums up the idealogical difference. I'm going to call camp #1 the PVP community. If you fall into camp #2, then there is a good chance:

 

1) You do both PVE and PVP

2) You prefer PVE to PVP

3) You don't play this game just to PVP

 

It all comes down to the philosophical question - who should Bioware cater its PVP experience to? I assert they should cater to the PVP community - including those who only play this game to PVP and have never set foot in a raid/operation. Not to say camp #2 shouldn't PVP, in fact the more the merrier. Just don't expect it to be PVE (wins based on repeatable, memorized mechanics and gear advantages), and you will be fine.

Edited by Gadian
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I love these guys who compare PvE progression to PvP progression.

 

PvE: Needs progression because they fight mobs with increasingly higher stats.

 

PvP: Not the case.

 

PvE: Gets his big mighty lightsaber/blaster and shiny gear to fight PvE mobs and so PvPers don't care when he shows up in a PvP environment with his gear because usually he gets robo-smashed by those with PvP gear due to expertise. Or best-case scenario its a fair fight, so meh.

 

Don't bother comparing PvE to PvP, it's apples to oranges.

 

'Not the case' isn't a very constructive arguement, sorry. Would you care to elaborate as to why progression in PvE and PvP is mutually exclusive?

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'Not the case' isn't a very constructive arguement, sorry. Would you care to elaborate as to why progression in PvE and PvP is mutually exclusive?

 

Look at the past 2-3 pages and it has been explained multiple times.

 

Probably why the person you posted opted not to say the exact same long-winded argument that they themselves probably already posted.

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'Not the case' isn't a very constructive arguement, sorry. Would you care to elaborate as to why progression in PvE and PvP is mutually exclusive?

 

pve - I can fight a weak dragon in bad gear and win to get moderately better gear to help me beat the next tier of dragon, I gain gear for the next dragon to kill and so on...

 

gear grind pvp - I have to fight everyone, some have all their gear, some dont, in order to get the gear I need to beat my opponents, many already have their gear, many are getting more geared daily and new 50? Lolol good luck, you gonna die alot before you might get some gear.

 

 

gear grinds dont work in pvp, if anything I think the real problem is that the pve in this game sucks so all these people who are currently pvping for gear would be pveing for it if it was just a little more fun.

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'Not the case' isn't a very constructive arguement, sorry. Would you care to elaborate as to why progression in PvE and PvP is mutually exclusive?

 

 

It's self-evident from the post. Once you hit level 50, PVP progression does not inherently require you to fight players with higher stats the way PVE does.

 

In a true PVP progression system, you fight players with better skill (rating/ranking). Contrary to popular belief skill =/= stats.

 

See my post about 5 pages back on the differences between PVE and PVP (if indeed these differences are not patently obvious), and why comparing progression between the two is apples to oranges.

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Let them quit. I'd rather those type of people were not in the game to start with. Warzones need to be competative and not all about geeks who play 24/7 and have the best gear.

 

Geeks? Oh god this makes your argument sound so damn stupid. The world you are looking for is ''No Lifers'' since the implication of your post would suggest being a Geek is a bad thing, which it isn't.

 

Although I do agree with your post, even though you do NOT need to play 24/7 to max out on gear, that is shear nonsense and totally flawed argument.

 

PvP should not be about gear grind but rather about your ''skill'' (whichever way you interpret that).

 

Although getting higher Valor Ranks could reward:

 

  • Vanity Modifications to your gear such as colouring and different styles (see WoW RBG 2.2L +)
  • Vanity Titles, Mounts and Pets
  • Rank Ladders

 

... you get the drift ;)

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You're completely missing the entire reason you need to obtain better gear in PvE, as opposed to PvP.

 

You've quoted me like 3 times, anyways explain how I am missing the point exactly?

 

Here's your scenario for the PvP centric player:

 

I primarly PvP therefore I do not require any gear to do so, when I enter a warzone all statistics, regardless of gear, are normalized. Even playing field so to speak.

 

Here I am in Ilum, in my orange and green gear, (remember I don't PvE) and I encounter PvE centric player of the opposing faction, he's rolling around in full raid gear. Who's going to win?

 

 

 

Why should someone who 'casually' PvP's be on par gear wise as someone who's main focus is PvP. It's the same logic vice versa.

 

Again, top tier teams will be facing off against other top tier teams, you have to work your way up the ladder, i.e. progression, this includes PvP gear. As you said, the reason you have to obtain better PvE gear is to be able to tackle harder content, this also applies to PvP.

 

Its trivial at this point to get PvP gear, regardless of your play time.

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Why do they even bother with gear. . . ? Just give people mods to put into their own gear. >_> So I dont have to waste cash ripping mods out.

 

^This

 

It's no fun buying multiple gear sets to play barbi mix and match pvp mod tea party...

Edited by VoidJustice
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You've quoted me like 3 times, anyways explain how I am missing the point exactly?

 

Here's your scenario for the PvP centric player:

 

I primarly PvP therefore I do not require any gear to do so, when I enter a warzone all statistics, regardless of gear, are normalized. Even playing field so to speak.

 

Here I am in Ilum, in my orange and green gear, (remember I don't PvE) and I encounter PvE centric player of the opposing faction, he's rolling around in full raid gear. Who's going to win?

 

 

 

Why should someone who 'casually' PvP's be on par gear wise as someone who's main focus is PvP. It's the same logic vice versa.

 

Again, top tier teams will be facing off against other top tier teams, you have to work your way up the ladder, i.e. progression, this includes PvP gear. As you said, the reason you have to obtain better PvE gear is to be able to tackle harder content, this also applies to PvP.

 

Its trivial at this point to get PvP gear, regardless of your play time.

 

That's not my scenario at all, that's just some drivel you made up. Let's call it what it is, shall we?

 

That's not the system we're talking about, we're talking about the 1.2 changes for gear. I'm not sure where this fantasy land scenario you just made up came from, but it has no bearing on anything.

 

In 1.2, there will be PvP gear and you can obtain it like everyone else, given some time. It will be just as good as what the best players wear, but they will probably get theirs faster. And they will still probably kill you, because they are the best players.

 

As for your last line, this actually doesn't apply to PvP at all, because the opponents you face are dynamic and reactive. They ARE the harder content, not their gear. Their tactics/strategy/skill is the harder content. The fact that they are rated higher than you makes them harder content, usually.

 

In PvE, this doesn't happen, so the only way to make you progress is through making harder content and giving you stronger gear to tackle it. PvP doesn't have this shortcoming and doesn't need to follow the same model.

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