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KBN's Stress-Free Guide to the Tank Rotation

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
KBN's Stress-Free Guide to the Tank Rotation
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Kalispa's Avatar


Kalispa
12.18.2014 , 11:27 AM | #111
Yep great idea, force cloak, lets drop all our threat to maintain the 4%. Oh my you guys are soooo smart. And your idea about timing, the problem is that the extra 2 seconds we have from maintaining our rotation for the 4% doesn't give us any options. When its time to move and it gets us at just the right moment, we lose the 4% of dr that is supposed to parallel us with the other tanks in armor rating.
You keep yammering about the same crap KBN, but yet never offer any alternatives. All you seem capable of doing is shouting down everyone.
Either give an idea on how to better play (something other than play better), or something BW can do to help us out a little. Or better yet shut up!
Ranting over and over again to prove your ego does nothing but confuse the small minded BW employees, and the have enough issues as is.

mastirkal's Avatar


mastirkal
12.18.2014 , 01:41 PM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalispa View Post
Yep great idea, force cloak, lets drop all our threat to maintain the 4%. Oh my you guys are soooo smart. And your idea about timing, the problem is that the extra 2 seconds we have from maintaining our rotation for the 4% doesn't give us any options. When its time to move and it gets us at just the right moment, we lose the 4% of dr that is supposed to parallel us with the other tanks in armor rating.
You keep yammering about the same crap KBN, but yet never offer any alternatives. All you seem capable of doing is shouting down everyone.
Either give an idea on how to better play (something other than play better), or something BW can do to help us out a little. Or better yet shut up!
Ranting over and over again to prove your ego does nothing but confuse the small minded BW employees, and the have enough issues as is.
You're wrong you know. It doesn't matter if you lose aggro so long as you taunt right after. Assuming you've been swapping with the other tank or you're a decent way into the fight you should still be quite a bit ahead of losing the mob if you stealth out and back in and taunt.
Poopvectus

Gardimuer's Avatar


Gardimuer
12.19.2014 , 09:58 AM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalispa View Post
Yep great idea, force cloak, lets drop all our threat to maintain the 4%. Oh my you guys are soooo smart. And your idea about timing, the problem is that the extra 2 seconds we have from maintaining our rotation for the 4% doesn't give us any options. When its time to move and it gets us at just the right moment, we lose the 4% of dr that is supposed to parallel us with the other tanks in armor rating.
You keep yammering about the same crap KBN, but yet never offer any alternatives. All you seem capable of doing is shouting down everyone.
Either give an idea on how to better play (something other than play better), or something BW can do to help us out a little. Or better yet shut up!
Ranting over and over again to prove your ego does nothing but confuse the small minded BW employees, and the have enough issues as is.
Accuses someone of "shouting everyone down" while shouting someone down. Accuses someone of "ranting over and over again" while ranting...



Back on topic:

Thank you for your perspective on the Sword Squadron fight, KBN. I have noticed Depredeting Volts failing to build stacks on enemies that are immune or who resist occasionally due to accuracy debuffs on me/higher defense on the target. This is annoying, especially since they fixed the problem in a previous patch. I have to wonder if they reintroduced this as part of their "taunts can miss now" system. If the rotational buffs of the other tanks also fail to build on immune targets I would assume it is intentional, but it is still highly annoying for tanks trying to keep maximum mitigation up during this fight.

On the subject of Force Cloak to maintain stacks, have you found that to be useful on the Quartermaster Bulo fight or Sword Squadron fights? I have been hesitant to use it on those bosses because of how their agro system works. (On Bulo, the tanks need to be the top 2 threat targets and I might want to save the extra few seconds of Shroud for Exonium Carts. On Sword Squadron, Unit 2 switches to Unit 1's highest threat target.)

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
12.19.2014 , 12:48 PM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by Gardimuer View Post
Thank you for your perspective on the Sword Squadron fight, KBN. I have noticed Depredeting Volts failing to build stacks on enemies that are immune or who resist occasionally due to accuracy debuffs on me/higher defense on the target. This is annoying, especially since they fixed the problem in a previous patch. I have to wonder if they reintroduced this as part of their "taunts can miss now" system. If the rotational buffs of the other tanks also fail to build on immune targets I would assume it is intentional, but it is still highly annoying for tanks trying to keep maximum mitigation up during this fight.
I've noticed it failing to build stacks on immune targets, and I've noticed that the "good old" bug where you have 3 stacks of Harnessed Darkness but fail to build Dark Protection on a channel (though the time window for that seems slightly narrower than before). I haven't noticed resists causing issues though. Maybe I've just missed it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Gardimuer View Post
On the subject of Force Cloak to maintain stacks, have you found that to be useful on the Quartermaster Bulo fight or Sword Squadron fights? I have been hesitant to use it on those bosses because of how their agro system works. (On Bulo, the tanks need to be the top 2 threat targets and I might want to save the extra few seconds of Shroud for Exonium Carts. On Sword Squadron, Unit 2 switches to Unit 1's highest threat target.)
Yeah, I avoid using Cloak on both Bulo and Sword Squadron. For those fights, I simply plan to drop my stacks in favor of mechanical execution in a couple places. I think that it's possible to fully maintain your stacks on both fights outside of the immunity phase on Unit 1, but I'm not (yet) good enough to do it. I can get close, but not fully there yet.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
12.19.2014 , 01:12 PM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalispa View Post
Yep great idea, force cloak, lets drop all our threat to maintain the 4%. Oh my you guys are soooo smart.
You have a co tank. They have a taunt. They taunt, you cloak, you taunt back. Very easy, very simple, works all the time, my cotank and I used to do it to reset our medpacks on a regular basis, and he still does, though I've been Guardian tanking recently.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalispa View Post
And your idea about timing, the problem is that the extra 2 seconds we have from maintaining our rotation for the 4% doesn't give us any options. When its time to move and it gets us at just the right moment, we lose the 4% of dr that is supposed to parallel us with the other tanks in armor rating.
Here's the thing about our rotation. You will, every single time, finish a Depredating Volts/Cascading Debris channel and follow it up with Wither/Slow Time (or Shock/Project if you planned ahead). You then use the other, and are already at 2 stacks. From there, you have a 30% chance with Maul/Shadow Strike, 51% chance with Thrash/Double Strike, and an increasing 30/51/65.7/76/83/88/92/94% chance to trigger Energize/Particle Acceleration with Lacerate/Whirling Blow, based on the number of targets. Thrash/Double Strike then goes up to a 76, and then 88% chance to trigger it on the second and third moves, and against 3 or more targets, Lacerate/Whirling blow is at a minimum ~90% chance by the secon hit and a minimum 96% chance by the third hit. Your chances of triggering Energize/Particle acceleration early are incredibly high, especially against multiple targets.

Now, with that said, you should be able to get up to your 3 stacks of Harnessed Darkness/Shadows in, at best, 6 seconds, and at worst, 9 seconds, though it's more likely to be 6 or 7.5 seconds. That leaves you, at best, 6 seconds of leeway, and at worst, 3. I cannot think of a single boss that will stun you for a full 6 seconds in a row, though there are some that will stun you for 3. In those cases, you have to work your timing on your channels to never be interfered with. It's not hard, just a little extra work.

Finally, even if your stacks do fall off because the boss stunned you or knocked you back at the worst possible moment, you will almost always have 3 seconds to finish a channel before another knockback from the boss. The only exception I can think of is SM/HM Brontes in the final burn, when the healing is trivially easy anyway.

As for the buff falling off due to not being able to hit things to maintain it, that's not a problem with the class/spec design, that's a problem with fight design. Like KBN said.

If you gives a specific instance in the game where it's hard to keep your stacks up, I'm sure he'll gladly (and I will if I beat him to it) explain to you how to keep your stacks up on certain bosses.
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalispa View Post
You keep yammering about the same crap KBN, but yet never offer any alternatives. All you seem capable of doing is shouting down everyone.
Either give an idea on how to better play (something other than play better), or something BW can do to help us out a little. Or better yet shut up!
Ranting over and over again to prove your ego does nothing but confuse the small minded BW employees, and the have enough issues as is.
With all those niceties out of the way, and me being done trying to be helpful and explain, I have a few more things to say. No, KBN actually does consider other ideas when they give some kind of thoughts/data to back it up. I've seen a lot of it, especially working with him, and when someone can come to him with really solid proof or data to back up their claims, he gladly listens to what they have to say. He keeps saying the same thing because people don't listen to what he says. They hear what they want to, selectively pick out what they want to, and ignore the big picture behind what he's saying. He has always been giving people suggestions for how to better maintain this rotation (mostly: learn where the stuns/kbs are and plan for them), but people seem to ignore that he says that, tells them how to get better, and can only focus on the fact that he tells them they need to get better.

He has done an immense amount of work trying to balance out this class with the other tanking classes, and has provided many valuable insights to so very many new players on how to play this spec better. Right now, you're no better than you're accusing him to be.
Dulfy Guides: Hatred, Serenity, Darkness, Kinetic Combat
Ellendra - Death MarkExit Area - Theraton
The Shadowlands

Gardimuer's Avatar


Gardimuer
12.21.2014 , 08:47 AM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I've noticed it failing to build stacks on immune targets, and I've noticed that the "good old" bug where you have 3 stacks of Harnessed Darkness but fail to build Dark Protection on a channel (though the time window for that seems slightly narrower than before). I haven't noticed resists causing issues though. Maybe I've just missed it.
Honestly, failing to build stacks on resists is not as big of an issue as it used to be since tanks have automatic 110% accuracy now. The final boss of the Manaan FP is the only fight where I have reliably seen it happen, but I expect it would also be common in PvP.

Ancaglon's Avatar


Ancaglon
02.05.2015 , 02:33 AM | #117
With 3.1, and the consequent reduction of threat from Cascading Debris, the "improved" Force Breach now becomes a required part of our rotation, but it can neither build stacks of Harnessed Shadows, nor proc Acceleration. How exactly is this supposed to do anything other than punish us further for being reliant on a 3 second channel to get 4% DR, with a 12 second time limit? If you actually have 4 stacks and break off Cascading early, you're going to run low on force very soon, which is a ludicrous situation for tank.

Kawabonga's Avatar


Kawabonga
02.05.2015 , 03:28 AM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by Ancaglon View Post
With 3.1, and the consequent reduction of threat from Cascading Debris, the "improved" Force Breach now becomes a required part of our rotation, but it can neither build stacks of Harnessed Shadows, nor proc Acceleration. How exactly is this supposed to do anything other than punish us further for being reliant on a 3 second channel to get 4% DR, with a 12 second time limit? If you actually have 4 stacks and break off Cascading early, you're going to run low on force very soon, which is a ludicrous situation for tank.
Breach costs less than Double Strike, and the force on Cascading Debris is consumed with each tick rather than upfront since 3.0. Breaking it early will not give you force problems. Also, using Breach rotationally will not impact the protection building at all. The only thing it might do is make you move Shadow Strike to after Cascading Debris, and more importantly reduce the Particle Acceleration procs. I fear we'll be seeing our dps go down a bit

Aelanis's Avatar


Aelanis
02.05.2015 , 12:06 PM | #119
Quote: Originally Posted by Ancaglon View Post
With 3.1, and the consequent reduction of threat from Cascading Debris, the "improved" Force Breach now becomes a required part of our rotation, but it can neither build stacks of Harnessed Shadows, nor proc Acceleration. How exactly is this supposed to do anything other than punish us further for being reliant on a 3 second channel to get 4% DR, with a 12 second time limit? If you actually have 4 stacks and break off Cascading early, you're going to run low on force very soon, which is a ludicrous situation for tank.
You actually struggle less with Force if you break CD early. If you break after the first tick, you spend 10 Force in that GCD, and so you actually go Force Positive for that GCD, and still get to keep your stacks. It makes the timing on the next rotation a little tight, and drastically reduces your threat generation, but it can be done if you're running low on Force. Also, it's about a 6% reduction in damage, so it's not like it's drastic.

As for the effect on the rotation, you might notice an average 0.5 second longer time between CD uses with this change, though it probably won't even be that much. The reason for this being that a 3 stack CD and Slow Time are both still better TPS than Force Breach, and Force Breach having a 6 second CD. Your rotation will basically look like: (end of CD) > FB > P > SpS/SS/DS/SaS > ST > FB > P > CD. That's going to be your best TPS even if you trigger Particle Acceleration. If you break CD early enough, you can throw a Saber Strike in before FB to get a tiny bit more Force back as well, and you'll probably have to do that if not tanking the boss.

Fun Fact time!
Your moves, by rank of highest TPS in 3.1, are sorted like so:
1) 3 stack Cascading Debris
2) Slow Time
3) Force Breach
4) Particle Accelerated Project
5) Spinning Strike
6) Shadow Strike
7) Project
8) Double Strike
Dulfy Guides: Hatred, Serenity, Darkness, Kinetic Combat
Ellendra - Death MarkExit Area - Theraton
The Shadowlands

tXHereticXt's Avatar


tXHereticXt
10.07.2015 , 05:18 AM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by mastirkal View Post
You're wrong you know. It doesn't matter if you lose aggro so long as you taunt right after. Assuming you've been swapping with the other tank or you're a decent way into the fight you should still be quite a bit ahead of losing the mob if you stealth out and back in and taunt.
My method was always to hit Force Pull, taunt, and start using that time to build up threat via the rotation. Man was that fun to see if I could outparse threat from the DPS. Some egotistical DPS in my days, took it upon myself to consider them a challenge and I always left those encounters with a smile on my face.

"You'll need to put guard on me." DPS 1
"Are you getting hit?" Me
"No." DPS1
"Lets try this..."