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WHY did Bioware nerf the companions so much?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
WHY did Bioware nerf the companions so much?

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
11.17.2019 , 02:41 PM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by jstankaroslo View Post
how do you know what MOST people do in this game? I do mostly vanilla planets. If the heroics are made faceroll again on those planets, I won't play anymore.

Your problem is you assume YOU are an average casual player in this game, therefore you think the game should be made exactly as you like it. Well guess what, there are all kinds of casual players in this game, and only BW (hopefully) know what kind of players represent the majority and is their target audience to cater to.
I do by seeing what happened before 3.0 and did you see how deadly it was in Section X where ppl asked to change the heroics? That's how MMO works. If you don't make new content, ppl leave. If they are still hard, then nobody would do them anymore.

What are you talking about? The heroics are not facerolls, they were buffed up for top level players to do, before that they were easy stomps once you get 8-9 levels higher.
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Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
11.17.2019 , 02:42 PM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by Tsillah View Post
What does this have to do with anything? You are making absolutely zero sense.

Let me simplify, maybe that works:

Leveling is considered solo content
Leveling in vanilla was harder than in 6.0
Companions in vanilla were worse than in 6.0 especially the healer comps

So when you say this MMO was never hard with regards to solo content you are not telling the truth.
I didn't say MMO was never hard, I said MMO once doesn't have difficulty levels to choose.
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Tsillah's Avatar


Tsillah
11.17.2019 , 02:53 PM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
I didn't say MMO was never hard, I said MMO once doesn't have difficulty levels to choose.
Ah I see I misread your post. That's my mistake.

So no there were and are no difficutly levels in the vanilla story, but that's story content and it was harder and the companions were not as good as they are now.

But the vanilla story is one of the things I enjoy the most about this game and I was saddened when they made it so easy in 4.0 and in 5.0 and now the companions are tuned down a bit but are still a lot better than before. So really, when it comes to vanilla story content, you have no reason to complain.

So that's content that interests me. What about you? Are you finally going to come clean and tell us which content you are talking about exactly?
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sharkfishman's Avatar


sharkfishman
11.17.2019 , 02:55 PM | #124
Here are my personal feelings:

1. I haven't had problems with normal Story Mode content at all. I enjoy the increased difficulty in these instances and story leveling planets. Bosses from your class story still die very, very quickly (The major story bosses should be a tad more difficult I think, merely the difficulty of a gold mob, for example, nothing extreme). This is both on toons with a lvl 50 comp and others with level 10 comps.

2. Heroic 2+'s and Heroic 4+'s were specifically retuned by the devs to be soloable for a single player with a high comp and decent performance of their class. This was done to allow players to run this content without requiring a group. After all, groups RARELY form for any of these missions. This was the case since LONG, LONG AGO. Hardly anyone ever grouped up for these missions starting at least 4 years ago or more.

3. Most Heroic 2's are fine for characters who are leveling up AND WHO HAVE LEGACY PERKS. This last part is important, because the buffs from having all 4 classes make a big difference, and so do the Unity and Heroic Moment utilities. This fact may be one reason for the difference in difficulty perception between long-time players and newer players.

4. There are some H4's that are no longer realistically solo-able, unless you happen to be a stealth character. I have heard that some H2's are also very, very hard to solo EVEN WITH A LVL 50 Comp, which is a problem. Getting a companion to level 50 should not used as the baseline for balancing content. Players with a level 10 comp should struggle. Players with a level 50 comp should have a relatively easy time soloing things. Otherwise, why the heck should I level my comp if I'm still going to be unable to solo the content I want?

5. Personally, I don't think (at this time) Veteran flashpoints should be soloable. There's no reason to run them by yourself, other than wanting better rewards than SM version. There are plenty of opportunities to run this content with other players, and there's SM, so please don't complain about difficulty when it comes to soloing VM FPs.

6. Many Story Uprisings are no longer soloable, even with a lvel 50 comp. This is unacceptable, personally, because it's almost impossible to get a group for many of these. Story mode should be balanced as before, so a lvl 50 comp makes it easy to get through these without issues. Vet Uprisings and MM Uprisings should require a group, and they should offer better rewards to incentivize running them.

7. The Eternal Championship can no longer be soloed at the appropriate level, even with a level 50 comp. The entire purpose of this type of content is to be able to solo it, which is no longer possible. At max level, it is doable but much more difficult than before. I'm fairly confident that the speed feat is now impossible for most players to obtain.

8. Star Fortresses 2+ are no longer soloable in most cases (depends on whether toon has stealth and which boss you face at the end). This is another type of content that is not available to run unless you run it solo.

9. I haven't run through VM chapters and MM chapters of KOTET or KOTFE yet, but that's my plan this coming week. I'll let you know how it goes. Again, remember this is content designed to be SOLOed. A player with a lvel 50 comp and good knowledge of class/defensives should be able to complete it, yes? Are we all on the same page there?
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Goreshaga's Avatar


Goreshaga
11.17.2019 , 03:00 PM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by Suzsi View Post
Your assuming YOU are.

With HM chapters etc there was already challenging content for casuals who wanted such.
There are zero options now for casuals who DON'T want this.
This.

And as it is now, it's not even really harder (well at least where it's not completely broken, looking at you stupid walkers), it just takes longer, and the fighting system in this game is already absolutely not fun to me, so being forced through more fight that take longer is just plain boring.
I really wish all classes had at least 1 advanced class with stealth, that would already help with avoiding 90% of the useless mob fights.
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casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
11.17.2019 , 03:01 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by jstankaroslo View Post
how do you know what MOST people do in this game? I do mostly vanilla planets. If the heroics are made faceroll again on those planets, I won't play anymore.

Your problem is you assume YOU are an average casual player in this game, therefore you think the game should be made exactly as you like it. Well guess what, there are all kinds of casual players in this game, and only BW (hopefully) know what kind of players represent the majority and is their target audience to cater to.
And what about heroics that are in daily areas, like section X where you can't even find a group. Lucky for me I know how to work that heroic so not a problem for me, and if my boyfriend and/or guild members are on, bingo I have some help but what about those that don't and can't find help in those. Even before the "level sync" people had trouble getting people to group up for that particular heroic. I can remember when doing it before and starting to look for a group just as I started the area and even when I got to the heroic still no one wanted to do it and now it is worse as very few people do that daily area and finding a group there is 10x worse than it was.
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jstankaroslo's Avatar


jstankaroslo
11.17.2019 , 03:02 PM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by Suzsi View Post
Your assuming YOU are.

With HM chapters etc there was already challenging content for casuals who wanted such.
There are zero options now for casuals who DON'T want this.
No, I'm saying different people want different things. And only BW might know what to do to cater to most player's wishes and keep the game healthy. I'm happy with companions in 6.0 (more then in 4.0 and 5.0 anyway), you are not. None of us knows if that makes most people happy or angry.

Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
I do by seeing what happened before 3.0 and did you see how deadly it was in Section X where ppl asked to change the heroics? That's how MMO works. If you don't make new content, ppl leave. If they are still hard, then nobody would do them anymore.

What are you talking about? The heroics are not facerolls, they were buffed up for top level players to do, before that they were easy stomps once you get 8-9 levels higher.
You seem to have a problem with logic in your arguments, or perhaps you are answering to someone else and have the posts mixed?
As to why people left the game long time ago (and I do not believe we were having this discussion on that topic?):
I've read many theories why many people left the game after launch (it was pre 2.0 era) and the game difficulty was a really weak one.

Basically what would answer your problems is: get rid of level sync and get the game back to 3.0 state. That way you could go back to vanilla planets at max level and face roll them. And people who want an engaging game at planet level would have it to.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
11.17.2019 , 03:13 PM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by jstankaroslo View Post
You seem to have a problem with logic in your arguments, or perhaps you are answering to someone else and have the posts mixed?
As to why people left the game long time ago (and I do not believe we were having this discussion on that topic?):
I've read many theories why many people left the game after launch (it was pre 2.0 era) and the game difficulty was a really weak one.
Ppl leave when there is no new content, it' the basic logic of all MMO. Most of the "difficult" games failed even worse than SWTOR.

Quote:
Basically what would answer your problems is: get rid of level sync and get the game back to 3.0 state. That way you could go back to vanilla planets at max level and face roll them. And people who want an engaging game at planet level would have it to.
Sure, that's what I've been asking for so long.
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jstankaroslo's Avatar


jstankaroslo
11.17.2019 , 03:22 PM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by sharkfishman View Post
Here are my personal feelings:

1. I haven't had problems with normal Story Mode content at all. I enjoy the increased difficulty in these instances and story leveling planets. Bosses from your class story still die very, very quickly (The major story bosses should be a tad more difficult I think, merely the difficulty of a gold mob, for example, nothing extreme). This is both on toons with a lvl 50 comp and others with level 10 comps.

2. Heroic 2+'s and Heroic 4+'s were specifically retuned by the devs to be soloable for a single player with a high comp and decent performance of their class. This was done to allow players to run this content without requiring a group. After all, groups RARELY form for any of these missions. This was the case since LONG, LONG AGO. Hardly anyone ever grouped up for these missions starting at least 4 years ago or more.

3. Most Heroic 2's are fine for characters who are leveling up AND WHO HAVE LEGACY PERKS. This last part is important, because the buffs from having all 4 classes make a big difference, and so do the Unity and Heroic Moment utilities. This fact may be one reason for the difference in difficulty perception between long-time players and newer players.

4. There are some H4's that are no longer realistically solo-able, unless you happen to be a stealth character. I have heard that some H2's are also very, very hard to solo EVEN WITH A LVL 50 Comp, which is a problem. Getting a companion to level 50 should not used as the baseline for balancing content. Players with a level 10 comp should struggle. Players with a level 50 comp should have a relatively easy time soloing things. Otherwise, why the heck should I level my comp if I'm still going to be unable to solo the content I want?

5. Personally, I don't think (at this time) Veteran flashpoints should be soloable. There's no reason to run them by yourself, other than wanting better rewards than SM version. There are plenty of opportunities to run this content with other players, and there's SM, so please don't complain about difficulty when it comes to soloing VM FPs.

6. Many Story Uprisings are no longer soloable, even with a lvel 50 comp. This is unacceptable, personally, because it's almost impossible to get a group for many of these. Story mode should be balanced as before, so a lvl 50 comp makes it easy to get through these without issues. Vet Uprisings and MM Uprisings should require a group, and they should offer better rewards to incentivize running them.

7. The Eternal Championship can no longer be soloed at the appropriate level, even with a level 50 comp. The entire purpose of this type of content is to be able to solo it, which is no longer possible. At max level, it is doable but much more difficult than before. I'm fairly confident that the speed feat is now impossible for most players to obtain.

8. Star Fortresses 2+ are no longer soloable in most cases (depends on whether toon has stealth and which boss you face at the end). This is another type of content that is not available to run unless you run it solo.

9. I haven't run through VM chapters and MM chapters of KOTET or KOTFE yet, but that's my plan this coming week. I'll let you know how it goes. Again, remember this is content designed to be SOLOed. A player with a lvel 50 comp and good knowledge of class/defensives should be able to complete it, yes? Are we all on the same page there?
We are on the same page here and I agree with what you wrote. What it means is BW should check the mobs/bosses in those instances (including story main bosses like Baras) and manually adjust them.
KOTET/KOTFE should be at roughly the same difficulty level as vanilla planets. Star Fortresses were at very cool difficulty level when first introduced and should be tuned to be like that now. Same for Eternal Championships.

What would be really bad is if they just didn't bother with checking those few content areas and fixing them, but just buffed up companions for ALL of the game. This lazy approach is what destroyed SWTOR with 4.0 for me, and may very well destroy it now for some new player trying to do KOTFE and find it impossible (if true. I did KOTFE/KOTET enough times to know I don't want to do them again, so IDK about their difficulty)

Tsillah's Avatar


Tsillah
11.17.2019 , 03:22 PM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
Sure, that's what I've been asking for so long.
Be careful what you ask for. In 3.0 comps were also a lot suckier and the leveling content was harder than today? Are you saying that you want a harder leveling experience now? You do surprise me sometimes.
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