The spec doesn't need another slow, it needs better mobility or another second on unstoppable. A better 2 piece pvp set bonus would be nice.

I'd kill for another second on unstoppable... Missing out on my last ravage strike sucks...

Better mobility as in faster passive speed?

I'd also go for impale or shatter having a slow, but then they'd probably make it have a longer CD which I wouldn't like. Especially as one of them costs quite a bit of rage.

I'd kill for another second on unstoppable... Missing out on my last ravage strike sucks...

 

Better mobility as in faster passive speed?

 

I'd also go for impale or shatter having a slow, but then they'd probably make it have a longer CD which I wouldn't like. Especially as one of them costs quite a bit of rage.

Shien was given a 15% passive movement increase back a few updates ago.

I'd kill for another second on unstoppable... Missing out on my last ravage strike sucks...

 

Better mobility as in faster passive speed?

 

I'd also go for impale or shatter having a slow, but then they'd probably make it have a longer CD which I wouldn't like. Especially as one of them costs quite a bit of rage.

Better mobility as in moving the leap reset ability from the tanking tree to vengeance. Or the force push reset ability (even better, I would think). This is a spec whose main gosh darn selling points is the bonus it gets from the leap. This is incidentally why I have come to like Andrew_Past's idea of a 15% group alacrity buff. With that bonus you could leap and have just enough time to do the accelerated ravage. It's a nice idea for the reps to persue.

Ultimately, as I elaborated in the other thread, vengeance needs the ability to deliver dps faster in addition to having dps worth mentining.

PS. Just to engage in further fantasy game design, reworking pooled hatred to also grant crit chance bonus equal to its damage bonus would vastly improve this ability.

Better mobility as in moving the leap reset ability from the tanking tree to vengeance. Or the force push reset ability (even better, I would think). This is a spec whose main gosh darn selling points is the bonus it gets from the leap. This is incidentally why I have come to like Andrew_Past's idea of a 15% group alacrity buff. With that bonus you could leap and have just enough time to do the accelerated ravage. It's a nice idea for the reps to persue.

 

Ultimately, as I elaborated in the other thread, vengeance needs the ability to deliver dps faster in addition to having dps worth mentining.

 

PS. Just to engage in further fantasy game design, reworking pooled hatred to also grant crit chance bonus equal to its damage bonus would vastly improve this ability.

The problem is Andrew's idea was an on use ability that gives the Jugg a raid wide buff to a multirole class having such an ability has been reserved for single role classes. If we are the only multirole class to get that, that amounts to special treatment.

We got some good powers to help our mobility: the Force Push reset, the15% speed increase, Unstoppable against PBs. What Vengeance really needs is something similar to the Marksman Sniper Recoil Control talent where Ravage's cast time is increased always. Ultimately the problem is on our top ability you can easily avoid the back loaded third strike in pvp by simply running, and then the Veng Jugg is at range and has to chase. This is also the same on fights requiring high mobility like NiM DG. That simple change could give the spec a little more burst and a definitely increase in mobility.

A hint of what to expect as a DPS Juggernaut, gotten from the Sorc Q&A:

There may be a little room for improvement here, though comparing a Sage to a Marauder or Sniper is not exactly a fair comparison. The fact is, Marauders and Snipers cannot heal themselves to full. Sure, you cannot deal damage while you are healing, but knowing when to heal or when to deal damage is part of playing a Sage. Marauders and Snipers definitely have a simplicity advantage over Sages, because they can only fulfill the role of a damage dealer. Therefore, they are easier to play to their full potential than any class that can tank/off-tank or heal/off-heal.

I read that as Bioware changing their stance on DPS specs across the classes. Their apparent stance is that our off-specs are part of our "full potential." So off-healing or off-tanking because the healers or tanks failed at doing their job means that in the eyes of Bioware's current combat team, multi-role classes' DPS specs should not be compared to Marauders/Snipers.

Bioware has just endorsed running nothing but Sniper/Mara DPS.

(A little over dramatic at the end, but I'm allowed that now and again )

A hint of what to expect as a DPS Juggernaut, gotten from the Sorc Q&A:

 

 

 

I read that as Bioware changing their stance on DPS specs across the classes. Their apparent stance is that our off-specs are part of our "full potential." So off-healing or off-tanking because the healers or tanks failed at doing their job means that in the eyes of Bioware's current combat team, multi-role classes' DPS specs should not be compared to Marauders/Snipers.

 

Bioware has just endorsed running nothing but Sniper/Mara DPS.

 

(A little over dramatic at the end, but I'm allowed that now and again )

Thanks for posting this ssfish.

That said....what a bunch of BS!!! So because I can taunt I need to have a harder time performing and have less usable utility? You know how often I use my taunts as DPS? Maybe once every two month being GENEROUS. Usually its because the healers are out of energy and its going to be wipe anyway.

This really pisses me off. This might be the straw that breaks the camels back for me.

To be fair, that was in reply to a question regarding Sage/Sorc defensive capabilities. It was noted that their healing HAS to be taken into consideration when discussing defensive CDs and the like.

I think a lot of it has to do with the questions that are being asked. KBN got decent replies to his questions, so either he asked "better" questions or they just happened to get more thoughtful responses.

To be fair, that was in reply to a question regarding Sage/Sorc defensive capabilities. It was noted that their healing HAS to be taken into consideration when discussing defensive CDs and the like.

 

I think a lot of it has to do with the questions that are being asked. KBN got decent replies to his questions, so either he asked "better" questions or they just happened to get more thoughtful responses.

Ah that makes more sense. Though reading the PT thread doesn't fill me which much hope either. I think even if the questions were related to PvP cooldowns they want the single-specs being seen as optimal.

To be fair, that was in reply to a question regarding Sage/Sorc defensive capabilities. It was noted that their healing HAS to be taken into consideration when discussing defensive CDs and the like.

 

I think a lot of it has to do with the questions that are being asked. KBN got decent replies to his questions, so either he asked "better" questions or they just happened to get more thoughtful responses.

I emphasized the comment that lead to my conclusion, which is not tied directly to the question asked, and specifically mentions classes that can taunt.

Edit: Besides, the "full potential" comment is just ridiculously inaccurate. Playing Carnage Marauder to its full potential (which is not the same as playing it to outperform other classes) is the most difficult/complex thing in this game. Especially compared to maxing out the potential of any Jugg spec.

Bioware has just endorsed running nothing but Sniper/Mara DPS.

 

(A little over dramatic at the end, but I'm allowed that now and again )

Honestly, it's not that over dramatic. It's pretty much what they're telling you to do, in operations and now arenas.

1: I think that enraged defense should be rage free cost wise. It should last longer, and no longer heal you, but rather have a flat 20% mitigation for 20-30s. This is a baseline addition to help match marauders because I don't think that marauder CD's should be nerfed, other mDPS should be brought up to a closer level.

 

2: I'd rather see veng get a flat 30% alacrity boost for 5 seconds after leap as it increases DPS on ravage, encourages varied rotations etc. Just more varied gameplay I guess.

THose would be awesome in both pvp and pve for vengeance. It really sucks in any situation where I have to use enraged defense and it cuts my rage in 1/2 and messes up rotation.

Bioware has just endorsed running nothing but Sniper/Mara DPS.

 

(A little over dramatic at the end, but I'm allowed that now and again )

Well, too flipping bad as I've worked too hard on my vengeance juggernaut for progression raiding to go level up a marauder for that instead. Lets hope Bioware re-think this endorsement. At the same time, I'm kind of glad I had to work to get my numbers in stead of just sitting back as a sniper and letting them come to me by default.

VENGEANCE - The single target damage needs to be increased. Shatter should do more initial damage. Simple. Vengeance wins on the target dummies (PvE) for single target DPS but RAGE truthfully is just waay better for PvP than Vengeance right now. I'm sorry but I've constantly gone back and forth b/t Rage and Vengeance (great at both), and am typically #1 in dmg. As Rage I look like a demi-god on the charts but as Vengeance I am usually barely #1, and may be #2 in dmg. NOW, it is important to note that there are many variables in PvP to be aware of when discussing balance. Vengeance has CC immunity and damage reduction after charging for example. I still hold strong to my opinion about vengeance needing an initial damage booster. I notice 1v1, my damage on an enemy really isn't that impressive... Smash is just as a good and its AoE. Somethings very wrong with that. I am constantly squinting when I do my shatter/impale/forcescream as Vengeance. B/c I know that if I was rage that enemy would have been Smashed insantly for incredible damage lol, and another is on the way. I'm not even going to mention cleansing bleeds or w/e. The initial damage for Vengeance is just disappointing it really is.

To the Original Post:

IMMORTAL - I agree with you. Its a wonderful spec, fun, efficient, and has great gameplay & flow.

VENGEANCE - Increase initial damage of Shatter, or something..... Its a great spec gameplay wise, but so disappointing damage wise. If your not going to increase the damage than maybe make Enraged Defense even stronger for Vengeance players so we don't feel guilty for not playing Rage.

RAGE - Its fine where it is. Leave it, you finally got Rage where it needs to be. And yeah, maybe lastly, as Rage, Enraged Defense is just an odd ability. Some people were talking about that and I definitely agree. Its silly.

VENGEANCE - The single target damage needs to be increased. Shatter should do more initial damage. Simple. Vengeance wins on the target dummies (PvE) for single target DPS but RAGE truthfully is just waay better for PvP than Vengeance right now. I'm sorry but I've constantly gone back and forth b/t Rage and Vengeance (great at both), and am typically #1 in dmg. As Rage I look like a demi-god on the charts but as Vengeance I am usually barely #1, and may be #2 in dmg. NOW, it is important to note that there are many variables in PvP to be aware of when discussing balance. Vengeance has CC immunity and damage reduction after charging for example. I still hold strong to my opinion about vengeance needing an initial damage booster. I notice 1v1, my damage on an enemy really isn't that impressive... Smash is just as a good and its AoE. Somethings very wrong with that. I am constantly squinting when I do my shatter/impale/forcescream as Vengeance. B/c I know that if I was rage that enemy would have been Smashed insantly for incredible damage lol, and another is on the way. I'm not even going to mention cleansing bleeds or w/e. The initial damage for Vengeance is just disappointing it really is.

 

To the Original Post:

IMMORTAL - I agree with you. Its a wonderful spec, fun, efficient, and has great gameplay & flow.

VENGEANCE - Increase initial damage of Shatter, or something..... Its a great spec gameplay wise, but so disappointing damage wise. If your not going to increase the damage than maybe make Enraged Defense even stronger for Vengeance players so we don't feel guilty for not playing Rage.

RAGE - Its fine where it is. Leave it, you finally got Rage where it needs to be. And yeah, maybe lastly, as Rage, Enraged Defense is just an odd ability. Some people were talking about that and I definitely agree. Its silly.

I agree with your idea for Shatter. There is no valid reason why they can't condense the duration of the bleed. For being a top tier talent, it does appear silly to simply couple the benefit procs with Impale. It should have a unique effect in addition. Here is where I'll suggest "Shield Break", for in essence that's what Shattering something should do. It has a nice ring to it.

The proposed Shield Break mechanics, would include a 6 second window, that would enable the vengeance jug's attacks to bypass the target's applied shields. I think this is the perfect addition to our attack Shatter.

Can I get a "hell ya"!!!

I agree with your idea for Shatter. There is no valid reason why they can't condense the duration of the bleed. For being a top tier talent, it does appear silly to simply couple the benefit procs with Impale. It should have a unique effect in addition. Here is where I'll suggest "Shield Break", for in essence that's what Shattering something should do. It has a nice ring to it.

 

The proposed Shield Break mechanics, would include a 6 second window, that would enable the vengeance jug's attacks to bypass the target's applied shields. I think this is the perfect addition to our attack Shatter.

 

Can I get a "hell ya"!!!

Shatter is fine. It has the highest dmg among other veng spells. And the fact that its partially dot, allows it to increase the burst dmg when u land an impale next, added by the dot of shater + a off-cd retaliation.

Also, the dmg of shatter is internal, no need to say more. As for being top tier talent, i dont see other classes getting something more overpowered. For example, madness sorc gets an internal dmg dot, with no initiate dmg, and that sucks if it doesnt get boosted by death field.

Shatter is fine. It has the highest dmg among other veng spells. And the fact that its partially dot, allows it to increase the burst dmg when u land an impale next, added by the dot of shater + a off-cd retaliation.

Also, the dmg of shatter is internal, no need to say more. As for being top tier talent, i dont see other classes getting something more overpowered. For example, madness sorc gets an internal dmg dot, with no initiate dmg, and that sucks if it doesnt get boosted by death field.

*scratches head*

Well ya man, I know how shatter works. My point was to compliment the other guys suggestion, by saying the duration of Shatter's damage over time, could be shortened, ergo condensing and increasing the immediate impact. Considering the cooldown of shatter, that may present problems with the RNG proc reliance, but we have the dots from impale as well. I'm sure even without a change to Shatter's dots, my other point isn't overpowered in the typical sence. I I tied in an excellent idea for a shield break("shatter") mechanism that would enable *all* of the vengeance jug's damage cut through a target's applied shield. This would be a situational ability which does not increase the initial output damage, but instead provides an illusion of burst, because for 6 seconds the other attacks that follow will not be affected by your target's shield. Does that make sence?

As for sorcerer's top tier talent, I cannot comment, for mine is not 55. But I anticipate there will be attention given to that class down the road, despite the developer's current answers. One can only hope, right?

We ll wait and see.

It seems that BW wont make any balance changes before they check how arena balance will go.