You know for a fact people just want the easy way. I guarantee with the new tool that if it takes longer than a minute for a queue to pop people will be complaining it isn't good enough

It's expected. Some players will keep complaining no matter what. You could give them 1000$ free every month and they'll ask for 2000$. You'd give them those 2000$ and they'll ask for 10000$. Eventually, they'll ask for both your kidneys, your house and your first-born (the last three sentences were sarcasm, full-time complainers calm down, calm down...). I bet those players are the same people we have to endure at the office. You know which coworkers I'm talking about.

At least here, we have the ignore option.

It was a very decent tool. Needed some minor refining, as I have said several times, but it was a useful tool. The downside to it was the fact that no one would use it because they were either too lazy or did not want to learn a simpler way to form a party than to spam general chat.

 

 

 

 

If the tool was so useless, as you are claiming it was, why was I able to form group after group after group using it before the server populations started dropping?

Because you've already lost man. Stop trying to win the argument. When we lost such a huge number of subs it was clear that the tool while functional doesn't work in the way the community wants. People want server mergers and a robust LFG tool as their priorities.

Server mergers will happen next week and the new LFG tool is here on PTS. Your posts will not change that whatsoever. Embrace it or don't but stop trying to justify the old tool that was rejected by the community. It simply wasn't useful enough to mitigate the issues people had with it.

In what world is spamming lfg "work"? and how does an unnecissary time barrier in front of group content help any mmo in any way at all?

 

People didnt use it because the game is built to discourage it, so if you have a server with half anti social people and half people who want to group or any other mix, you need to help those people get groups in the most efficient way you can.

 

You people dont even have good arguements for why you think people should have to wait to get groups, you just demand it.

So we do not have good arguments for our side, yet you go and say that the game was built to discourage using a party while saying we need an easy party former? I am so confused and do not think you even know what you are talking about. Maybe you should go back to WoW and use your easy party former there rather than destroying this game because you can't live without it.

Because you've already lost man. Stop trying to win the argument. When we lost such a huge number of subs it was clear that the tool while functional doesn't work in the way the community wants. People want server mergers and a robust LFG tool as their priorities.

 

Server mergers will happen next week and the new LFG tool is here on PTS. Your posts will not change that whatsoever. Embrace it or don't but stop trying to justify the old tool that was rejected by the community. It simply wasn't useful enough to mitigate the issues people had with it.

I will stop trying once Bioware gives me the game I paid for back or refunds me my money for purchasing a game and then having them change it too suite people coming straight from WoW. SOE did it with Galaxies, why should EA not do it with this? (And yes, this is more sarcastic than real because I know they won't)

Pssst. There was a comment section that allowed you to add a comment on what you were looking for. I know it's hard for people to grasp having to put some thought into what they are trying to do this day and age:rolleyes:

We're still talking about how great the piece of monkey droppings the game shipped with was... why? Isn't it clear that even the developers thought so little of it they replaced it? Can we move on and talk about the 1.3 tool already?

So we do not have good arguments for our side, yet you go and say that the game was built to discourage using a party while saying we need an easy party former? I am so confused and do not think you even know what you are talking about. Maybe you should go back to WoW and use your easy party former there rather than destroying this game because you can't live without it.

What dont you understand? do you really think the game wasnt built to solo to 50? Do you not know that the good 4 man heroic rewards were moved to 2man and the crappy 2 man rewards moved to 4man? how is that not discouraging group play?

Do you not understand that if you make it so dont have to group at all that it will make it much harder for people who want to group to get them?

We're still talking about how great the piece of monkey droppings the game shipped with was... why? Isn't it clear that even the developers thought so little of it they replaced it? Can we move on and talk about the 1.3 tool already?

Hey bro, way to follow the conversation. We are talking about it. Just adding my own two cents in to the people who couldn't figure out how to use the original one.

So we do not have good arguments for our side, yet you go and say that the game was built to discourage using a party while saying we need an easy party former? I am so confused and do not think you even know what you are talking about. Maybe you should go back to WoW and use your easy party former there rather than destroying this game because you can't live without it.

 

 

 

 

I will stop trying once Bioware gives me the game I paid for back or refunds me my money for purchasing a game and then having them change it too suite people coming straight from WoW. SOE did it with Galaxies, why should EA not do it with this?

Progress is made when community requested tools are added, not by arguing for their exclusion - especially after it's already been confirmed it's on the way. You lost, I get it and you feel the game will be worse for it (makes no sense).

When 1.3 launches you can simply choose not to use the tool and continue on your merry way.

Personally I'm happy about the tool because I have no interest in running HM FP's anymore. The tool allows me to run the content I want rather than having to walk friends through runs as they can now easily find a suitable group without me. There's a lot of positives here but please continue your cynical outlook.

Additionally since I roll alts all the time I might actually find people to do low level FP's as I level. Since about 2 months post launch it was extremely rare on my server to be able to run low level FP's there just wasn't enough interest to consistently find a group. We have people that joined our guild at level 50 that NEVER ran them. That's not cool since it wasn't for lack of trying, at some point new players just give up on it and miss a great part of the game.

Progress = win, even if you don't like it.

So we do not have good arguments for our side, yet you go and say that the game was built to discourage using a party while saying we need an easy party former? I am so confused and do not think you even know what you are talking about. Maybe you should go back to WoW and use your easy party former there rather than destroying this game because you can't live without it.

What he posted made perfect sense. Why would someone spend an hour or more looking for a group to do a flashpoint when he can just continue questing during that hour and quite possibly progress beyond the point that he even needs anything from that flashpoint.

I will stop trying once Bioware gives me the game I paid for back or refunds me my money for purchasing a game and then having them change it too suite people coming straight from WoW. SOE did it with Galaxies, why should EA not do it with this? (And yes, this is more sarcastic than real because I know they won't)

Sorry, but the game is broken. People are leaving like rats leaving a sinking ship. The core game is still the same game you paid for. Bioware is now trying to add features and content to keep their player base and possibly bring new players in and maybe even bring some of those back who quit.

SWG, eh? Do I need to explain how all that worked? Because you aren't remembering it correctly.

To be honest, I've spent that last couple weeks playing Eve Online again because I was growing bored of this game. I truely want this game to succeed. But I'm not going to stick around (Though I've never cancelled my sub because I want to support this game for now) in a game if I'm bored. I'm hoping that if I can get more flashpoints and operations in, I'll find this game fun again.

What he posted made perfect sense. Why would someone spend an hour or more looking for a group to do a flashpoint when he can just continue questing during that hour and quite possibly progress beyond the point that he even needs anything from that flashpoint..

If people had actually used their brain and clicked on the simple little LFG button and added a comment on what they were looking for the tool would have worked. It is good that Bioware is refining it so the simpletons can use it properly.

one thing to keep in mind

minimum gear requirement means people are using their clas to their full potential. Which is never the case.

 

The reason some player have unreasonable requirement noawadays, it's because they have seen so often player in full rakata doing less dps than other in tionese, that if they don't know you, they will assume you are bad, or at very least an average player.

 

Believe me or not, i have been invited to HM lost island run infull tionese, because people know me and knew i would get the best of the gear i have. (and we did clean).

 

I think gear check are necessary to protect both the group that wish not to carry undergear player and the undergear player himself from griefing, it's a protection measure.

 

I still think there should maintain a vote to kick for some case (disconnected, long afk, cheated gear check like a guardian in trooper rakata gear for example)

I think the reason a lot of players have unreasonable or outrageous gear requirements has a lot more to do with a desire for a faceroll speed run than any other reason. I trust that if the devs implement a gear check, that they will set a minimum standard that will allow for some imperfections but still allow for successful runs. This does not mean that every run will be a faceroll, a speed run or that there will be no deaths/wipes. Some groups may have to work harder than others to complete the instance, but those are the chances you take when using a LFG to PUG.

If a gear check is implemented, having a vote kick system becomes redundant. It is not necessary and should not be included if there is already a gear check. If Player A feels that Player B is not sufficiently geared or that Player B cheated the system, then Player A can leave group and queue again. Same goes for long afk's, dc's or other issues. If a player meets a gear check standard set by the devs, that should be the end of it. They should not have to worry about being removed after waiting in queue just because someone wants a speed run.

If people had actually used their brain and clicked on the simple little LFG button and added a comment on what they were looking for the tool would have worked. It is good that Bioware is refining it so the simpletons can use it properly.

Yes It's a darn shame people are too lazy to set a LFG comment. It makes it really tough to fill a group. All I want is a system that will list all the players looking for a group by the content and their role. Along with their level and name. I'd gladly whisper people listed and ask them if they have run before and if they have the gear to do it. Most things in this game don't require gear, but rather skill and knowledge. Always a tricky thing to prescreen for.

I think the biggest problem in this thread is that people don't understand the difference between a gear check in the LFG tool and "Gear Score", which is a famous addon tool that some of the player base in WoW used to decide if someone could play in their reindeer games or not.

We are talking about a simple feature in the LFG tool that looks to see if you are of appropriate level and have "good enough" gear that you can survive the content that you are queuing for. This feature would prevent a brand new level 50 in greens from queuing for say a tier 2 heroic mode flashpoint.

I think the biggest problem in this thread is that people don't understand the difference between a gear check in the LFG tool and "Gear Score", which is a famous addon tool that some of the player base in WoW used to decide if someone could play in their reindeer games or not.

 

We are talking about a simple feature in the LFG tool that looks to see if you are of appropriate level and have "good enough" gear that you can survive the content that you are queuing for. This feature would prevent a brand new level 50 in greens from queuing for say a tier 2 heroic mode flashpoint.

That is what some of the posters are worried about. It's not whether the game decides for you or not, it's the players who take it upon themselves to set the bar in what gear will be allowed.

That is what some of the posters are worried about. It's not whether the game decides for you or not, it's the players who take it upon themselves to set the bar in what gear will be allowed.

Right. But if a group of players look at a member and say "You aren't geared well enough to run this." There is little Bioware can do. It also has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. But people see "Gear check" and they get all emotional and don't bother to even read the OP's post.

I personally would rather not be put in the position to tell someone they aren't geared enough. If they are even remotely close to being ready for that flashpoint I would give them the benefit of the doubt and try.

Shouldn't the LFG tool save people that frustration of getting placed in a dungeon they aren't even remotely ready for? This game has brought in a lot of players who have never played an MMO before. I personally would rather see them have fun and stay. If they do, they will help support the game I'm playing. But if they have a bad experience because someone with less tact kicks them from the group after possibly berating them for queuing with crappy gear, they may choose to just unsub.

I would rather the people who create this game (oh you know the one's who put in Tiered Equipment in the first place) put in the minimum expected standards of what a player should meet before trying to do EC, Hard Mode Operations, HM LI, etc. This would give the player some guidance and a path to success. Your option is for the player to be Instant Kicked and put on Ignore. The bad thing about this method is Guild Leaders talk to each other and this results in the player being put on more ignore lists and so on and so forth. This could result in a lot of unnecessary heart ache. I'm not going to waste 14 other peoples time because of your delicate feelings and ineptitude to understand the very basics of doing 50+ content. Instant kick + Ignore + Message to other Guild Leaders to do the same = a lot less players wasting their time on you.

I get you want to see all the content and experience the game in it's fullest. Unfortunately some of the content requires you to meet a certain threshold to do that content. I don't want to see anybody be put on the Instant Kick list if it can be helped. You advocate the opposite of that.

 

 

I don't think they do. I think that they believe that once they hit 50 that they should be able to do all the content and get all that nifty gear they see on the swtor web page. They don't understand that certain Operations and Flash Points require you to have a certain amount of Tier 1 Equipment before being able to move onto the next one. That some Operations require a certain amount of Tier 1+Tier 2 to complete... and some even require Tier 3 and some Tier 4 to be able to complete. Understanding that Operations have varying degree's of difficulty is waaaayyy to hard for some of these people to understand. All they understand is they just turned 50 and they keep getting kicked out of doing Hard Mode Denova because the evil Operation Leader has something against them.

So... you DO want the game to hold your hand for every little thing. That is what you are saying in response to my question. If you can't take a few extra seconds to check a new groupmember's equipment and ask them to change if they're wearing the WRONG equipment, then that really is your own failing.

Not sure where you got all that other stuff from. I never once said anything about "wanting to experience the whole game". I was simply stating that depending on what YOU want to do, equipment should be checked manually instead of them having to make a filter for it, and changed appropriately.

The laziness of elitist players is beginning to show itself.

I'm out. Peace.

I think I've met that guy. ;p

 

This is not actually an argument against the LFG tool, but a strong argument against a cross server LFG tool. A guy like this will, soon enough, own a reputation that will shy others away from him and leave him, once again, tucked nicely in a guild that will tolerate him.

 

Personally, I've dragged many an under-geared, unfamiliar group through dungeon runs. Quite often I've found them to be far more enjoyable then dealing with full geared jackwagons.

 

Ignore and friend-lists are great tools.

lol, yeah well that was kinda the point

We all met that guy in modern day Raid enviroments as they pretty common

This guy happened to be one of the co leaders of the guild I joined and while everyone spoke out about how terrible he was (reason I actually watched him originally, heard guildies talking about how he couldnt adapt to different situation when a raid didnt follow exactly what was written on the internet sites he used), no one told the guy to shut it and act with a level of civility and respect.

He was in short, what everyone had come to expect in a Raid like Atmosphere.

That totally wasnt for me

heh and yeah, Im like you, I take under powered players, under geared players, or under sized players into high difficulty situations all the time in games as I find challenges fun and enjoyable.

Id rather play with a player in low end equipment (honestly I never even think to look at peoples equipment, just not something I do) and figure out how to beat a encounter or flashpoint or whatever then stress out about being uber equiped so minimize any challenge like the modern Raider/PVPer.

I'd say that you can do EVERY HM FP except LOST ISLAND in Blue 49 or Green 50(it's not easy but you said "minimum" not "optimal").

Story EV and Story KP should have a minimum of Blue 50.

I had a guildy once complain to me that a mara we pugged was wearing full Recruit - I respond back that that meant he met the minimum requirements.

HM LI should have a minimum of purple 50.

If it can be done by someone with full Tionese (purple 51) you can do it wearing gear a mere 1 level lower.

---> Has anyone confirmed that it CAN be done with full Tionese though? I had full Columi when I did it.<---

Story EC should have a minimum of 3/5 Columi. Anything less and it's not even possible (I'll believe otherwise when you post PROOF). My pug had 1 piece of Rakata/person (the rest was Columi) when we did it and I've got to say, even that seemed to be pushing it.

Yep, one of the biggest negatives that come with it. Heaven forbid they play to have fun.

 

Reminds me of the release of another games expansion. I was in part of the front pack that was running the heroic instances in our greens and blues, because we had nothing better at the time. We didn't have guides, tutorials, or gear requirements. We wiped, but had fun figuring it out. That was then. Now you see silly gear "requirements" to run those same things, by "expert" players who insist it can't be done without them.

 

Funny thing is, if the advanced gear is required, how did they get it?

Do you mean the LFG tool wasnt wanted to find a group?

Like I said before its not so they can see the content with a group faster, its so they can complete the content. They have no proof that that person in greens is actually not a better player than that person in full purples.

They have it now so now they want to restrict people that they dont deem good enough to do it from getting the oppertunity to try.

If you fail then thats part of the game isnt it, if you dont want to get people that suck and are in greens then form your own group.

Soon to come, posts about how the LFG sucks because they cant complete it and its wasting their precious game time and that BW should reduce the difficulty of all the content so that it is easily puggable with anyone that wants to do it.

Psst. The comment is illegible beyond like 12 characters.

Psst. Mouseover it and you will see a window pop up with the full comment.

We're still talking about how great the piece of monkey droppings the game shipped with was... why? Isn't it clear that even the developers thought so little of it they replaced it? Can we move on and talk about the 1.3 tool already?

In about a year we are going to have the same individual saying, "I remember how great the old LFG Tool was... Didn't help you to find others to do any Flash Points, Operations, anything. It was wonderful but nobody ever used it."

So... you DO want the game to hold your hand for every little thing.

Yeah, because getting yourself to full Rakata and Black Hole Gear as a Powertech Tank is having your hand held... I'm not the one whining about my future on getting kicked from operations for not having the appropriate gear unlike yourself. Just wanting to point that one out.

If you can't take a few extra seconds to check a new groupmember's equipment and ask them to change if they're wearing the WRONG equipment, then that really is your own failing.

Because everyone runs around in crap gear with good gear in their bags wanting to do HM and Nightmare mode Operations... seriously?

If you have **** gear on and you want to do an Operation that requires a substantial lvl of gear to pass then the failing is on you. Go do some HM Flash Points, Story Mode EV and KP, then do some Hard Mode EV - KP / Story Mode EC, and then you won't have to whine about being kicked for not being geared enough.

I've ran into some Elitist crap already. "I don't want to teach anybody the Operation." "I just want people who already know how to do the Operation." and so on. This is an actual conversation I had with a Guild Leader. I don't have time for people like that either. /gquit.

I run Lost Island 4-5 times a week to teach others how to do it. I just ran Kaon today with a new 50 today so he could start getting gear.

With that being said, some operations require everyone to be at a certain level of readiness and when one person doesn't meet that requirement then it brings the whole group down. That isn't being elitist that is being honest.

I was simply stating that depending on what YOU want to do, equipment should be checked manually instead of them having to make a filter for it, and changed appropriately.

And I disagree. I would like Bioware to make the minimum standard and not the players. This would get rid of most of the elitist opportunities and could even act as a guide. When you have players dictating the standards then you get variances from group to group because each person has their own ideas of what the minimum standard should be. Instead I would like "ONE" standard that everyone knows ahead of time so nobodies time is wasted including the player seeking a team to do the operation with.

The laziness of elitist players is beginning to show itself.

Met one already. I don't have time for that either. If you don't have time to teach a new player an operation then I don't have time to help you out when one of your players don't show up.

I remember when LFG was introduced into WoW. I was max level and they also introduced some new dungeons at the same time which got progressively harder. The LFG would let me take part in the 1st but it would not let me check the boxes to try and join the 2 after it until I had a certain item level. Even when I got this item level it was difficult.

This is the type of gear check it needs to put in place but with modable orange gear surely the gear levels will be all scewed.

They also need to put kick timers and quitter rebuffs in so people are no constantly booted because the group is unwillIng to give them advice.

Yep, one of the biggest negatives that come with it. Heaven forbid they play to have fun.

 

Reminds me of the release of another games expansion. I was in part of the front pack that was running the heroic instances in our greens and blues, because we had nothing better at the time. We didn't have guides, tutorials, or gear requirements. We wiped, but had fun figuring it out. That was then. Now you see silly gear "requirements" to run those same things, by "expert" players who insist it can't be done without them.

 

Funny thing is, if the advanced gear is required, how did they get it?

So explain the fun the rest of the group will have to do an instance 1 person short because you refuse to wear gear and keep dying to every sneeze the boss do?

If you have played WOW in the last year, you probably pugged the Zandalari Heroic dungeons in the group finder (commonly called Troll Heroics). Even with a gear score AND a LFG group buff, these where STILL a nightmare to pug. People got kicked constantly, people yelled at each other constantly. It took forever to finish one some times because people would get mad and drop and you'd have to wait for replacements.

My point? Most of the time, it takes skill AND good gear to clear hard content. If the content is too difficult, it will frustrate the heck out of the people playing and they'll stop queuing up for it. If they allow fresh 50s with quest gear to jump right into heroic and Ops, how many pugs do you honestly believe will succeed? The average player probably doesn't realize what progression even is and may just queue up for everything. Bioware should FORCE you to gear up through normal FPs, then Heroics, then LI, then the first too SM ops and finally EC. After that, you'd need to join a guild to progress.

Honestly... I'm not trying to be an elitist here. I hated in WOW that people would scream "Link your gearscore and achievement or don't bother whispering me!" when trying to pug raids, but I don't want heroics/Ops to become like the Zandalari dungeons in WOW. Where no one bothers to queue because the experience is horrible 99% of the time.