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Playing a Guardian is literally giving me a headache


Kurugi

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My Guardian is level 33 Defense specced. Since about 30 when I got Hilt Strike I've noticed my abilities just start to feel convoluted and my rotation begin not feeling as tight. I've looked around but I keep finding conflicting information and most guides I find seem woefully out of date.

 

Mainly I see people prioritize abilities based on 2 separate things: Mitigation or threat.

 

If they prioritize for mitigation they put Riposte, Blade Storm, and Force Sweep at the top of the list since these abilities give you defensive buffs/debuffs to help you survive better.

 

If they prioritize threat they favor Guardian Slash and Hilt Strike more since they generate high levels of threat.

 

So which is correct? A lot of guides I see are before the changes to Guardian Slash, so I wonder if their assessment of it's threat generation is a bit off. It still says it "generates a high amount of threat", but I'm unsure if that still places it ahead of things like Blade Storm or Sweep.

 

Thing is I've leveled a Jugg to 50 and don't remember it ever feeling like this. Granted I ran a completely different build and mainly did PvP (come to think of it I don't think I ever ran a single flashpoint on her), but I don't ever remember feeling overwhelmed at the number of abilities I had.

 

Last night I ran Cademimu and it just felt really sloppy. Granted I had terrible DPS in the group attacking whatever target they felt like (I could've marked targets but it was a pug so even if I had marked targets I doubt anyone would have paid much attention) and a Sentinel who was the highest level in the group leaping in ahead of me (yes I had Guard on him). It was a pretty nerve wracking run for both me and the healer. It was probably the DPS's fault over mine but I still felt like I did a sloppy job.

 

I guess I'm just not sold on a solid opener/priority yet. I don't have Saber Throw yet so I typically lead off with Leap -> Sundering Strike -> Blade Storm -> Combat Focus -> Sweep, Riposting whenever it lights up. I've seen guides say to use Combat Focus before leaping but I find if I do that I end up capping out on focus, so I usually save it for after Blade Storm.

 

After that I typically throw out a stasis and then fall back into a priority of Sundering Strike > Riposte > Blade Storm > Sweep > Master Strike > Strike.

 

Thing is I'm not sure exactly where Hilt Strike fits in there. Do I want to use it ahead of everything else since it stuns/generates a lot of threat? Do I want to use it after Blade Storm/Sweep so I can get those defensive buffs/debuffs up? I only got it 3 levels ago so I'm still getting use to even having it in the first place. Often I completely forget to even use it. I'm also not sure if I'm not using Master Strike enough. I tend to only use it when everything else is on cooldown, but I know it generates a lot of threat for a tank. Having everything on cooldown seems to only happen once in a blue moon.

 

I keep flip-flopping between my Guardian and my Merc and I think the discrepancy in abilities is the reason why. It's so much more relaxing to play my Merc just because of how much easier the rotation is.

 

Thanks for reading. :D

Edited by Kurugi
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If you don't like it don't play it. I love Guardian its my Fav class, but thats just me.

 

........what?

 

I was asking for advice not complaining about the class....

 

I just...don't even know how someone can even take my post that way..just...wow >_>

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some ppl just need to bash others.. In my defense, I leveld a knight to 40 and idd, after 30 it gets a little bit harder to play guard, but surely it get's better ^^you just gotta hang in there!

 

-.-

 

That still didn't answer my question..not in the slightest.

 

Did anyone bother even reading my post or just the title...sheesh

 

I was asking very very VERY specific questions about rotations and such..things that "it gets better" doesn't even remotely answer.

Edited by Kurugi
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........what?

I was asking for advice not complaining about the class....

I just...don't even know how someone can even take my post that way..just...wow >_>

 

Stupid people are stupid thats how.

 

Having not leveled as defense the help i can give you is very limited.

 

However....

Don't bother speccing defense, it really just is not worth it while leveling. Google vigi defense hybrid or have a forum search for that spec and roll with that. Lowbie flashpoint tanking is generally quite forgiving until you get upto RR.

 

Just run around with defensive gear, soresu and a shield and I bet healers and dps will not even notice.

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Stupid people are stupid thats how.

 

Having not leveled as defense the help i can give you is very limited.

 

However....

Don't bother speccing defense, it really just is not worth it while leveling. Google vigi defense hybrid or have a forum search for that spec and roll with that. Lowbie flashpoint tanking is generally quite forgiving until you get upto RR.

 

Just run around with defensive gear, soresu and a shield and I bet healers and dps will not even notice.

 

Wow I'm 3 for 3 on unhelpful responses...

 

Not interested in specing Vig..in the slightest. I just don't care.

 

Guess I'll have to spell it out again...

 

I'm asking for help on priorities for defense spec based on conflicting/outdated information I've found elsewhere.

 

That's it.

 

Not interested in people telling me to stop playing if I don't like it.

 

Not interested in people telling me "it gets better" (because I wasn't even concerned about that to begin with..)

 

Not interested in people telling me to play a different spec.

 

C'mon people it's not that freakin' hard....

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I’m at a similar level as you, so I’m no expert, but from my experience and readings I always open with sweep in a PVE situation to get the 4 stacks of sunder on the mobs. Because once you have control/aggro, then you can worry about mitigation.

Eg. Leap > Sweep > Blade storm etc etc.

 

So far I love playing defensive guardian, especially because I love control and protection in WZ’s. Also, groups frustrate me in FP’s, so I’m enjoying taking the lead.

 

But like I said, my advice would be prioritizing threat first to get control of the situation, then worry about mitigation. Sweep > storm (4 stacks sunder on all targets in the area > moderate dmg shield).

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As for your question regarding the place of Hilt Strike in your rotation:

It has none :p

Personally, I use it as a kick / stun to interrupt elite or lesser foes.

Also it's quite useful to generate some extra threat after you've lost agro - i.e. cast it right after a taunt.

 

An average deep defence opening would be something like:

(Saber Throw) - Leap - Force Sweep - Sundering Strike - (Guardian Slash) - Blade Storm - Master Strike

 

After that Riposte whenever available and keep the abilities mentioned above on CD.

Use Strike if nothing else is available to build additional focus and use Combat Focus when you are in need of some extra focus.

 

That's basically it

 

Another piece of advice:

You're the tank not the babysitter. When you encounter another DPS thinking he has to pull mobs - just stand aside and watch him / her die.

When he complains tell him that DPS are a dime a dozen and that he's free to leave.

That might not be subtle but it usually puts an end to all discussions.

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First off, it has been some time since I had a lower level Guardian. So, I will probably throw abilities in here that you do not yet have, oops :-)

 

The thing to understand about Guardian spec is it is priority based - not rotation based. You have already noticed that the cooldowns don't line up -that is the intent of the designers. Juggernaut has the same kinds of cooldowns on the same abilities, so to me they feel the same when not watching the graphics.

 

You will want to use Sundering Strike as often as possible - it generates focus and your ability to tank is directly associated to your focus. It generates good threat too.

 

Hilt Strike, even on bosses, is a great way to keep building that threat. Sure, you won't get a Pommel Strike on a boss, but the point is to get lots of hate.

 

Riposte _ANYTIME_ it lights up, unless you are in the middle of Master Strike. Riposte ignores the global cooldown, so it is free damage.

 

You will want to have Force Stasis talented so you can throw it on your target - boss or not - to generate focus and threat. It acts as a small, free DOT while you are going into another ability.

 

I will typically use Master Strike right after Force Stasis, for non bosses. Otherwise, I will use Master Strike when one of my higher priority abilities is not off cooldown.

 

Talent your Force Sweep so that it lowers the accuracy of your target, since you will probably be a mitigation tank in the long run. Lots of endurance for Guardians is okay, but since we can wear heavy armor that provides mitigation that Shadow's don't get.

 

For a glance at the future, my typical opener is

  1. Saber Throw - builds focus
  2. Force Leap - builds focus
  3. Sundering Strike - builds focus (and talented to give two sunders)
  4. Force Sweep - (talented to give four sunders)
  5. Guardian Strike - lots of damage when 5 sunders is up
  6. Hilt Strike - to finish getting threat built up fast

 

Once I open the fight, I go into a priority system, with a goal to keep my focus above 6 but generate threat. The scheme is highest to lowest priority:

  1. Riposte any time it is lit
  2. Sundering Strike
  3. Combat Focus
  4. Blade Storm - to keep up Blade Barrier which soaks some damage
  5. Hilt Strike
  6. Guardian Strike
  7. Force Sweep - to keep the accuracy debuff on the mob
  8. Master Strike (especially when boss is channeling long cast time item)
  9. Force Stasis
  10. Force Push
  11. Slash if focus 10+
  12. Strike if focus less than 6

But even the, with the opener and priority scheme, some end game bosses require slightly different approaches. For example, I will not Force Leap Karagga since I need the maximum amount of room to slowly kite him.

Edited by Mennil
Forgot Master Strike in priority table
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Ok how about this: Is the information in the tanking sticky still accurate/not outdated?

 

There hopefully that's an easier question.

 

you're probably having trouble with guardian because of your attitude, not the class.

 

with the exception of one person, everyone actually tried to help you and all you did was complain some more and throw around insults.

 

 

congratulations, you are now that guy.

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you're probably having trouble with guardian because of your attitude, not the class.

 

with the exception of one person, everyone actually tried to help you and all you did was complain some more and throw around insults.

 

 

congratulations, you are now that guy.

 

Ever ask a question you were looking for a specific answer for, and everyone gives you all the answers BUT the one you were interested in? Yeah, can't tell me you've never been in that situation, or how it isn't one of the most annoying things in the world.

 

My question was simply: Should I prioritize higher threat generating abilities or abilities that increase my mitigation more?

 

In response I got:

 

1. A useless troll

2. A guy telling me "it gets better" even though I don't know how that pertains to my question at all.

3.A guy telling me to switch specs, again not pertaining to my actual question.

4. A guy who actually did answer my question somewhat, although his response of "I never use it except as an interrupt/cc/emergency" I take with a grain of salt.

5. A guy giving me the kindergarteners guide to how to tank with a Guardian when all I wanted was an answer to a specific question.

6. And you

 

All I was looking for was something along the lines of "Yes you want to prioritize those abilities higher than those others because of <insert logical reasoning here>". That's it. Again, I ask because all information I have researched is either outdated (Hell, the guide on mmo-mechanics has pretty much been called "dead"), unreliable (lol Noxxic), or conflicting (some people saying Blade Storm and Force Sweep have higher priority while others say Hilt Strike and Guardian Slash are more important). I was simply wondering which is right so when I have Hilt Strike and Blade Storm off cooldown at the same time I know DEFINITIVELY which one I should be using first.

 

Now, you start a thread where everyone is giving you answers that don't even pertain to what you were asking and see how good of an attitude you have. :)

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you're probably having trouble with guardian because of your attitude, not the class.

 

with the exception of one person, everyone actually tried to help you and all you did was complain some more and throw around insults.

 

 

congratulations, you are now that guy.

 

This.

 

Oh and to your further response, people have answered you. Between Blade Storm and Hilt Strike use Blade Storm if its 30 seconds in and you have aggro, Hilt Strike if it isn't. Do you understand how taunts work in this game?

Edited by wadecounty
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Wow what an unappreciative :csw_jabba:

 

If you only had one simple question why was your OP several paragraphs?

 

Also, did you not see my post? Threat before mitigation? I know I used the ultra-tricky '>' (greater than) symbol, but we can't all be that slow can we?...

 

Anyway, when you post on forums you're going to get peoples opinions on how they play, not always the perfect theory crafted answer.

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This.

 

Oh and to your further response, people have answered you. Between Blade Storm and Hilt Strike use Blade Storm if its 30 seconds in and you have aggro, Hilt Strike if it isn't. Do you understand how taunts work in this game?

 

If you mean how taunt increases your threat by a percentage on the target even if you're at the top of the threat list, then no, I haven't got a clue. :rolleyes:

 

People have answered me yes. The answers were mostly crappy and had nothing to do with what I asked, but technically they count as answers I guess.

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If you mean how taunt increases your threat by a percentage on the target even if you're at the top of the threat list, then no, I haven't got a clue. :rolleyes:

 

People have answered me yes. The answers were mostly crappy and had nothing to do with what I asked, but technically they count as answers I guess.

 

Your initial post wasn't clear at all as to what your question was, it seemed to be asking for a general priority list which several people gave you.

 

Your subsequent posts have shown you to be totally unappreciative as others have pointed out.

 

I'm so sorry you wiped in a lowbie flashpoint, freaked out and decided you needed someone to hold your hand on how to play the class, but I'm not sorry that you spit on their hand when they reached out to you.

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I'm so sorry you wiped in a lowbie flashpoint, freaked out and decided you needed someone to hold your hand on how to play the class, but I'm not sorry that you spit on their hand when they reached out to you.

 

Don't remember saying anything about wiping. Don't remember freaking out after the flashpoint either. Only time I remember freaking out is when I had one of my pet peeves set off. I'm sure you have those too. You know what those are right? Those little things that just frustrate the hell out of you. Everyone has them. One of mine is people giving me unrelated answers to questions. Not just on forums, but anywhere.

 

Oh, and another pet peeve of mine is people assuming things that aren' t true. :)

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you're probably having trouble with guardian because of your attitude, not the class.

 

with the exception of one person, everyone actually tried to help you and all you did was complain some more and throw around insults.

 

 

congratulations, you are now that guy.

 

I'm also going to agree with this. For someone who is asking for help you are awfully rude and ungrateful. Instead of dismissing all of these people telling you that your attitude is a big part of your problem, maybe you ought to stop.....take a deep breath....and then maybe consider that you should adjust the way you are speaking to your fellow players.

 

Instead of complaining that people who have honestly tried to help you weren't helpful enough perhaps you could try thanking them for their attempts to help and then phrasing your questions more specifically.

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I leveled as a tank - it was the dumbest thing i ever did because it took longer than I needed to to level. So if i was doing it over i would level vig and go tank at 50.

 

If you are going to level as a tank then heres my advise: Most classes get all their abilities eairly and you spend most of the time leveling with them all so learn to play. Guardian get their abilities more slowly. I think it is because Guardians are more complex to master. to my mind its a design flawo because just as you get a play style sussed you get a new ability that is in some way important and has to be intergerated then just as you start to get the hang of that you get another.....

 

on the other hand it dosent really matter leveling is not that tuff. Suck it up and put in the grind. once you get to 50 you will still have to learn the class because you get many important abilities in the last 5 levels. so my advise level as vig.

 

if you want to abuse me for answering your question my way go ahead - but dont expect a response.

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It depends.

 

There, I directly answered your question as to which skill (Hilt Strike or Blade Storm) to use first when both are off cooldown.

 

As for your follow up question, yes, some of the guides are outdated, but many still have relevant (and accurate) information.

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Sorry to everyone about yesterday. I wasn't feeling well and was in a VERY grumpy mood in general, and that first response I got that told me to just play another class if I didn't like it just really rubbed me wrong and set me off on everyone else, so I apologize, and thanks for all the helpful responses I did get.

 

I was playing more yesterday and even when soloing playing a guardian just feels sloppy. I don't have any trouble soloing. It's actually pretty smooth all things considered, I just don't feel "good" playing my guardian for some reason. I don't have any trouble keeping aggro in FPs either.

 

I guess the best way to describe it is I feel like I use some abilities just to use them and not because I need to use them. Like I'll be like "uhh..guess I'll throw out a stasis since sunder and combat focus are on cooldown and I need more force..yeah". It doesn't feel precise or calculated though, it just feels like well I haven't used this in a while so there ya go.

 

My Jugg never felt like that though. I always felt solid playing my Jugg. After 40 I played a hybrid vengeance PvP build (this was before the talent tree revamp so you couldn't pick up stasis mastery) which really wasn't that less complicated than full defense, just replace Guardian Slash with OHS and take away Hilt Strike and it's pretty much the same, so I don't know why my Jugg felt great and my Guardian feels sloppy. Thing is I don't think I'm actually playing sloppy..it just feels sloppy, because a couple of my abilities I just use without having a "this is when I definitely need to use this ability" place for them, so I'm just throwing it out there like "yeah, I did it".

 

Anyway, I'm going in circles now. Sorry again for yesterday.

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Sorry to everyone about yesterday. I wasn't feeling well and was in a VERY grumpy mood in general, and that first response I got that told me to just play another class if I didn't like it just really rubbed me wrong and set me off on everyone else, so I apologize, and thanks for all the helpful responses I did get.

 

I was playing more yesterday and even when soloing playing a guardian just feels sloppy. I don't have any trouble soloing. It's actually pretty smooth all things considered, I just don't feel "good" playing my guardian for some reason. I don't have any trouble keeping aggro in FPs either.

 

I guess the best way to describe it is I feel like I use some abilities just to use them and not because I need to use them. Like I'll be like "uhh..guess I'll throw out a stasis since sunder and combat focus are on cooldown and I need more force..yeah". It doesn't feel precise or calculated though, it just feels like well I haven't used this in a while so there ya go.

 

My Jugg never felt like that though. I always felt solid playing my Jugg. After 40 I played a hybrid vengeance PvP build (this was before the talent tree revamp so you couldn't pick up stasis mastery) which really wasn't that less complicated than full defense, just replace Guardian Slash with OHS and take away Hilt Strike and it's pretty much the same, so I don't know why my Jugg felt great and my Guardian feels sloppy. Thing is I don't think I'm actually playing sloppy..it just feels sloppy, because a couple of my abilities I just use without having a "this is when I definitely need to use this ability" place for them, so I'm just throwing it out there like "yeah, I did it".

 

Anyway, I'm going in circles now. Sorry again for yesterday.

 

Fair enough, to try to answer your question since you want to tank...

 

My advice is actually get out of the Defense tree altogether, tanking as a guardian is mostly gear, not skill tree. The reason why the hybrid build exists is because the Defense tree is actually a substandard tree.

 

You can tank as a Vigilence Guardian rather effectively, you can also tank as a Vigilence/Defense Hybrid.

 

Now if you're dead set on being a Defense guardian, the most sound suggestion would be focus on interrupting enemies and generating threat. Do not concern yourself with damage (sounds counter intuitive I know), your companion has to be a dps or the healer.

 

As people here will say I have a really unusual gear setup, however I tend to play either tank or a DPS role. Since you want to go with tanking you need to devote all your effort to simply generating threat (the amount of punishment you can take and your threat generation are your primary concerns), damage output is secondary. A Pure Defense Tank guardian tends to do substandard damage compaired to every other tank in the game, so you are reliant on whatever DPS you have to finish the job and you may want to avoid using Doc, because his DPS output isn't as good as Rusk for instance.

 

Be prepared to use taunt often, because your lack of damage output really hurts threat generation. So some dps will generate more threat that you naturally, I can generally generate more threat than a tank Guardian despite being in shien stance.

 

Another thing that was brought up is our abilities, many of the abilities that guardians really have to use for tanking can only be gotten fairly late in the game (other classes get some of their core abilities earlier).

 

That's all the advice I can give, since I lvled as a Vigilence DPS, I didn't use the tank tree aside for a few first level abilities.

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Thanks Garfield. I've been thinking about it and I might give Vigilance a try instead. I think the 2 main reasons I haven't really looked at that spec are 1. I've heard it's a lot more focus starved since you're still playing in soresu form but without a lot of the talents that help mitigate the reduced focus generation (although I don't remember feeling that focus starved on my Jugg, and I think I played in Shien form pre-40 so I had that to compare it to. I definitely had less focus to work with but I don't remember it feeling too restricting), and 2. I leveled my Jugg with a similar build, and since Juggs and Guards are mirror classes I didn't wanna play the EXACT SAME build a second time.

 

Now if you're dead set on being a Defense guardian, the most sound suggestion would be focus on interrupting enemies and generating threat. Do not concern yourself with damage (sounds counter intuitive I know), your companion has to be a dps or the healer.

 

As people here will say I have a really unusual gear setup, however I tend to play either tank or a DPS role. Since you want to go with tanking you need to devote all your effort to simply generating threat (the amount of punishment you can take and your threat generation are your primary concerns), damage output is secondary. A Pure Defense Tank guardian tends to do substandard damage compaired to every other tank in the game, so you are reliant on whatever DPS you have to finish the job and you may want to avoid using Doc, because his DPS output isn't as good as Rusk for instance.

 

I've been a raiding tank in WoW so I realize what to focus on and what is required to tank. Damage hasn't really been my problem, I'm actually quite satisfied with how fast I kill mobs. Been using Kira since I got her and have kept her up to date gear wise. I'm currently on Balmorra so I'm about to get Doc but was planning to keep using Kira if I stayed Defense, but I might switch to Vigilance and just tank instances in Soresu form. Who knows, I might like it better (I did really like veng hybrid on my Jugg, but I was more focused on PvP. Never ran a flashpoint on her or did any group heroics). Plus I'd probably switch to using Doc instead since my kill speed would be a lot faster soloing in Shien form. Been getting kinda sick of Kira lately and her always-switched-on lightsaber impaling her head all the time.

 

My only concern is usually hybrid specs don't really come into their own until late because you need mid-tier talents from 2 different trees to really make the build "click". In Vig hybrid's case those talents appear to be OHS/Commanding Awe from Vig and Blade Barrier/Stasis Mastery/Lunge from Defense. If I switched to Vig right now it would be kind of painful losing Lunge and Stasis Mastery.

 

I do understand what you mean about Guardians being more late blooming in getting their abilities. I was playing a Vanguard tank but got board before I even reached 30 because I basically had my complete rotation minus the top ability in the tanking tree. They're a lot more simpler to play overall than the guardian though imo.

 

Thanks again for the response.

Edited by Kurugi
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