TPM Maul vs Malgus and Vindican as seen in the swtor "Return" trailer.

Who would win?

Under the Rule of Two, the standards for being a Sith Lord was much higher.

In the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, standards for being a Sith Lord were arguably highest. Training procedures were extremely harsh and competition was cutthroat, only select few would make it to the top.

In the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, standards for being a Sith Lord were arguably highest. Training procedures were extremely harsh and competition was cutthroat, only select few would make it to the top.

On the other hand only the elite were even considered by the Rule of Two, the training they underwent was just as brutal and they had superior tutors. Most of their members are easily above 95% of the Sith in the Sith Empire.

EDIT: In regards to the debate, the odds are certainly against Maul and he's not at his strongest - that said I think he could take down Vindican and maybe defeat Malgus, but more often that not he would lose to the latter.

If this were TCW Maul however I'd say he would win.

Maul, he has way better physicals, speed, strength, dueling ability, than Malgus has shown up to that point and certainly Vindican, even TPM.

I think Malgus could win out with Force powers however, Maul does wield Juyo.

Malgus didn't really show any force ability as of Return, whereas Maul at least as of TPM has shown some force ability. At any rate, Malgus doesn't show to be very powerful in using The Force at that point in time. Besides most battles come down to straight dueling, unless one of the combatants completely outclasses the other in Force prowess which isn't the case here.

Malgus was already among the greatest of Sith warriors at the time of retaking of Korriban. And Vindican is a Sith Inquisitor. I don't think Maul can take these two.

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For making it to the top perhaps, but to become a Sith? You don't require a great deal of ability.

 

On the other hand only the elite were even considered by the Rule of Two, the training they underwent was just as brutal and they had superior tutors. Most of their members are easily above 95% of the Sith in the Sith Empire.

 

EDIT: In regards to the debate, the odds are certainly against Maul and he's not at his strongest - that said I think he could take down Vindican and maybe defeat Malgus, but more often that not he would lose to the latter.

 

If this were TCW Maul however I'd say he would win.

Don't get me wrong, Rule of Two lineage produced some of the highest quality Sith in the mythos but these Sith didn't face cutthroat competition that was norm in reconstituted ancient Sith Empire to prove their mettle. Rule of Two Sith were much luckier, IMO.

Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire had internal mechanisms in place to ensure production of highest quality Sith in comparison to any other Sith Order of the mythos.

After becoming Sith, an individual could plan his ascension to the Dark Council but competition for this objective was absolutely cutthroat:

Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire have produced some of the finest Sith in the mythos. However, these Sith don't have same level of hype as the Sith of Rule of Two, acknowledgement bias I guess.

The competition and backstabbing prevalent throughout the Sith Order acts as more of a weakness than a strength, after all the Rule of Two was created to prevent this from happening, because what it inevitably leads to is the weak banding together and taking down the strong, or otherwise undermining their power - corrupting the whole process.

I mean how many advancements in the Sith Empire do we actually see that are the product of strength? Few.

Other than that it only serves to weed out the weak, it doesn't contribute to one's mastery or knowledge over the Force. Which because power amongst the Sith is coveted, fought over and therefore diluted, ends up lacking.

I mean seriously, the number of weaklings in the Sith Empire holding the Lord or Darth title is staggering. They place too great an emphasis on manipulation and cunning as opposed to strength in the Force, and are inferior as such.

Overall, the Order of Sith Lords has a much higher percentage of deserved Sith Lords and their average power level is superior to that of the Sith Empire, not taking into account the Sith Emperor of course. They are therefore better.

Among the Sith, Lords are fewest in number.

Weak eventually get culled from the higher echelons of power within the Empire. Their gang tactics can work for a while but they eventually flop because Sith do not last as friends of each other.

To become Sith, an acolyte must face and conquer many trails. Each challenge tests combat prowess, talent with the dark side, and knowledge of Sith Code. Such trails can occur anywhere on Korriban, from the dank cells of the Sith Academy jail to the deadly tomb of Naga Sadow. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire have produced some of the finest Sith in the mythos. However, these Sith don't have same level of hype as the Sith of Rule of Two, acknowledgement bias I guess.

Literally anyone born in the Sith Empire meeting some midichlorian criterion was put into the Sith Academy. The Empire really did not care who among these acolytes made it through and who did not. You keep using the intense competition but it truly is not relevant. If I have a bunch of pupils running around with D level skills and you have one pupil of grade A material, who has the better pupils? You do. More does not always mean better. I would take 1 share of Apple stock over 50 shares of Radioshack stock any day of the week.

You also seem to think that Rule of Two apprentices were pampered and sheltered from the galaxy and confrontation. This is bluntly not true. Bane created the Rule of Two to return the Sith to a fashion more similar to TOR era by making the Sith as fearful of each other as well as their enemy. They were training someone that would one day challenge them. Just because the Rule of Two Sith did not run in with Jedi as often does not mean they didn't face powerful enemies as there are still plenty of powerful people in the galaxy including each other.

The Sith could take in so many recruits because they were the only executive force in their Empire. The Rule of Two Sith couldn't take any chances on their apprentices. Not only did they need to select someone with the potential of becoming more powerful than themselves, they also needed apprentices who could maintain the secrecy/hiding in the shadows element they needed. TOR (my favorite era by the way) era had some great Warriors but they were often stubborn and egotistical leading them to reckless behavior. A warrior that is constantly flashing their red lightsaber around without thought still has use in the Sith Empire. Such an individual could never be in the Rule of Two.

The Darth Plag novel states directly that Masters began to use their own offspring as apprentices. This is in part because they could shield their offspring from Jedi recruiters, but also because no one else had the Force potential they had/needed for an apprentice.

Most importantly, every member of the Rule of Two that has been developed has employed some use of TK, Persuasion, Concealment, or other Force ability as children without training or even knowing that they were doing it. Ie, the Force was so very inherit to the Sith of the Rule of Two. The only Sith of TOR era, at the moment, to have such an claim at the moment is Vitiate...not even Malgus as he had already had some informal lessons in the Force before he killed his father's servant.

It is not just biased that give merit to Banite Sith. Let's also be honest, the reason Banite Sith are sometimes undervalued is because they do not lie within the pages of SWTORE.

Among the Sith, Lords are fewest in number.

 

Weak eventually get culled from the higher echelons of power within the Empire. Their gang tactics can work for a while but they eventually flop because Sith do not last as friends of each other.

 

To become Sith, an acolyte must face and conquer many trails. Each challenge tests combat prowess, talent with the dark side, and knowledge of Sith Code. Such trails can occur anywhere on Korriban, from the dank cells of the Sith Academy jail to the deadly tomb of Naga Sadow. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Banite Sith Apprentices have defeated Jedi Masters. I think that's more difficult than any trial the Academy gives.

Among the Sith, Lords are fewest in number.

 

Weak eventually get culled from the higher echelons of power within the Empire. Their gang tactics can work for a while but they eventually flop because Sith do not last as friends of each other.

 

To become Sith, an acolyte must face and conquer many trails. Each challenge tests combat prowess, talent with the dark side, and knowledge of Sith Code. Such trails can occur anywhere on Korriban, from the dank cells of the Sith Academy jail to the deadly tomb of Naga Sadow. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

These are just a few examples of the system being undermined all the way to the top. And that's without taking into account Sith Lords and Darths who are pitifully weak, clearly the trials on Korriban are not as difficult as you think.

I mean are you seriously telling me

Well, you gotta admit that being called

a million times a day is pretty stressful. Surely that would breed some pretty powerful Sith Lords, right, slave?

Well, you gotta admit that being called

a million times a day is pretty stressful. Surely that would breed some pretty powerful Sith Lords, right, slave?

No one asked you, slave. You shall speak when spoken to.

We gotta out of topic, I feel. We are discussing the overall power of the orders, that's not the matter at hand. By the time of the Sith Empire's return, Malgus was already one of the most powerful Sith, and later he would become the deadliest being in the Galaxy, not counting the Emperor of course. At his prime, he was superior to most Sith from the Rule of Two.

Regarding Maul, there's a lot of factors. As a duelist, there's no doubt he is able to hold them both, we are talking about someone that Sidious couldn't defeat through lightsaber combat, even utilizing Jar'Kai. And I don't think Vindican and Malgus powers, combined, would be enough to overpower him with Force. So, if we are talking about Malgus at the time of the Return cinematic, I think Maul can defeat both him and Vindican. Against Malgus, alone, at his prime, I'm not so sure.

Malgus didn't really show any force ability as of Return, whereas Maul at least as of TPM has shown some force ability. At any rate, Malgus doesn't show to be very powerful in using The Force at that point in time. Besides most battles come down to straight dueling, unless one of the combatants completely outclasses the other in Force prowess which isn't the case here.

Given that though, and given Maul's endurance capabilities I'd give him the win.

I forgot that this was not Malgus at his peak, that said he still did show impressive strength when he overwhelmed Darach - I would not so readily assume he had not achieved much of his potential by then. Many Sith did.

 

Given that though, and given Maul's endurance capabilities I'd give him the win.

Sure he overwhelmed Darach but that isn't nothing Maul wouldn't be able to replicate, this being the same Maul that can punch through Wampa's torsos and broke through durasteel armor.

But were in agreement anyhow.

Was Malgus stronger than Vindican?

Probably considering the latter didn't show anything in regards to strength. Abit though Vindican was pretty much a one-shot character, so that doesn't really help him much. Malgus at least overpowered Darach, even if the latter would have been fatigued.

Probably considering the latter didn't show anything in regards to strength. Abit though Vindican was pretty much a one-shot character, so that doesn't really help him much. Malgus at least overpowered Darach, even if the latter would have been fatigued.

Yeah well Vindican was the master of the two, the apprentice shouldn't be stronger. Also were they both Darths during Return, or just lord/apprentice?

Yeah well Vindican was the master of the two, the apprentice shouldn't be stronger. Also were they both Darths during Return, or just lord/apprentice?

If you're talking about in terms of Force prowess and the like, not just physical strength. Then at the time, yeah Vindican would have been better and Malgus was his apprentice during that time, well...before he died anyway.

I think in part what the cinematic was trying to show was that Malgus had surpassed his master, which is why he comes out of the duel intact, and then proceeds to execute his master who no longer serves a purpose.

I'm sure Malgus says as much at some point.

P.S. Vindican was a Lord, Malgus was an apprentice with no title at that point.