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Lvl 75 Gate Splits Game In Two, Undermining "Play As You Want"

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Lvl 75 Gate Splits Game In Two, Undermining "Play As You Want"

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
05.31.2019 , 06:04 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by cibacrome View Post
I am in this for endgame content, but I suspect the majority of players, purely numbers-wise, are of the kind Joon is describing - casual players who enjoy the class stories (vanilla and beyond), flashpoints, and a bit of space barbie now and again.

These players tend to come and go, perhaps not as dedicated to logging in as 'endgame' tryhards but I bet their sub and cartel $$ spend just as good as ours.

Endgame Ops and PvP'ers are passionately vocal (i.e. loudmouths with bad manners XD) so maybe it seems like there's more lol!
LoL, why can’t we be both endgame tryhards and play like casuals too. I know Lhance and Myself are and obviously Joon is

Darevsool's Avatar


Darevsool
05.31.2019 , 06:52 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
Not About Gear


Different Rewards for the Same Gameplay
Let me offer an illustration that you can think about over the rest of the post. Starting with GC (and especially with the Master's Datacron), you could take a toon, start it at level 70, and do nothing but base class stories from Tython to Corellia and earn CXP, UCs, crates, etc. just doing this content, i.e. without doing "endgame" content. Another player, doing the exact same content, but doing it at level 1-69 wouldn't earn any of these things. So again, 'endgame' and 'max-level' are not synonyms. The devs intentionally wanted people to be incentivized to play any content they wanted to in the game -- and that's a good goal. But doing the same content and getting nothing does not create the same incentives as doing that content and getting at least something. This made doing content pre-70 feel unnecessarily walled off, and discouraging.

......

This Simple "Fix" Hurts No One
This has had a substantial negative impact on the game pre-70, particularly in low/mid PvP, but not only there. It made leveling to 70 feel like a chore, because, unlike pre-GC, you couldn't progress your toon. And this 'gating' doesn't do anything to make the game better for people of other playstyles, so it's one of the many areas where the fix I'm requesting doesn't harm anyone, but it could help some. I usually advocate for these. So my ask is to please make the currencies and RXP available from level 1....


I cut out a lot of your post, but this is the point I was trying to understand where you were coming from.
I can understand, now, what you were trying to say, but I've never considered getting to 70 (regardless of how you do it...grinding heroics / master's datacron / whatever) and THEN going back and doing the story, the "normal" way to play. I've always viewed the master's datacron skip to 70 as an extreme luxury. Since you can use that, and get CXP as you go back through the story...I see why you'd ask to just have RXP available at level 1.

Personally, I don't see the harm in it, but to me, even now that I understand what and why you're asking, I don't see them as being the same thing.
You'll (presumably) still be able to use the same mechanics to skip to 70 (or maybe the datacron gets updated to 75) and then go back and do the story.

But at the end, as I mentioned, I don't see a downside to just getting RXP at level 1 and any new boosted character creation.

Maybe there is a reason for it that they haven't explained.
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Joonbeams's Avatar


Joonbeams
06.01.2019 , 06:29 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Darevsool View Post
...

Personally, I don't see the harm in it, but to me, even now that I understand what and why you're asking, I don't see them as being the same thing.
You'll (presumably) still be able to use the same mechanics to skip to 70 (or maybe the datacron gets updated to 75) and then go back and do the story.
...

Maybe there is a reason for it that they haven't explained.
Appreciate the response, btw. But just to clarify - one of the things that the Master's Datacron does is level you out of low/mids PvP, which as I mentioned is a game within the game that's really enjoyable for a certain group of players. That, and the MD is immersion breaking for RP (at least for me). Having all abilities at lvl 1 when you're a padawan is just odd (for me).

But yea, I don't see the downside to starting the RXP and currency acquisition at level 1...

ceryxp's Avatar


ceryxp
06.03.2019 , 11:27 AM | #24
I had to take a step back. Who knew having a sinus headache for three weeks and feeling like your teeth are going to explode out of your head every time you cough or blow your nose could affect your personality? I've even noticed it while leveling my Operative through GC (the last I need to get to 300); the other night I was getting angry at the character for being a jerk (the guy really is an ***). That doesn't excuse and again I apologize for the tone of my earlier posts. I really wasn't trying to be argumentative, and I really just wasn't getting it until I reread everything.

Allow me to first explain my thinking in my earlier posts. To me, there is absolutely no point to Galactic Command/Renown, command/renown crates, and Unassembled Components (which are going away with 6.0) except to obtain max level / end-game gear. I understand your point about the distinction between end-game and max level and don't disagree. My characters are mostly at max level, but I don't play much of the "end-game." So when you were talking about those things my brain kept going to 'gear'. I fully understand your point about how GC created this gate that segregated the 1-69 game from the 70 game. I created my first character, still my main to this day, in the bygone golden days of the 1.0 paradigm. I remember farming a world for planetary comms (back when each planet had its own comms) so I could buy gear to keep up with the difficulty progression from one world to the next. In truth, if we still had to do that, if they hadn't changed the leveling and gear progression system to what we have now I may never have got Legendary status. So, as I said, I wasn't trying to argue it's just that those things, GC, crates, UC's, don't mean anything to me except for gear.

On the subject of your OP and subsequent reply, and some things from the stream. I think some of the limitations and gating built into the GC system are definitely problematic, but it is my belief that that be will changed with Galactic Renown and 6.0. I could be wrong on this, and Eric really needs to come in and clarify some things (maybe we'll get it with the blog posts that are coming Soon™), but I think there are some positive changes coming with 6.0.

I'm still of the mind that Galactic Renown will be available from level 1. Again, I could be wrong and we really need clarification, but Eric said that RXP will be earned along with regular XP even at level 75. They specified even at level 75. This, with the fact that Renown levels will periodically be reset, makes me think that we'll be earning RXP before we get to level 75. I'm thinking it will work like Legacy XP, and others have speculated they are implementing a system similar to one found in Diablo 3. Another thing that makes me think RXP won't be limited to level 75 is that with 6.0 everyone will be reset to Renown level 1. Eric desribed the Renown system as a way to measure how long a person has been playing, so if we don't start to earn RXP until level 75 then that means no one can earn RXP on day one. Now, they could gate RXP to level 70+ so current max level characters can start on their Renown level from day one, but that sounds counter to their statement about Renown being a measure of play time.

Two other things that Eric said, first is that when we get gear that we don't want we can break that gear down for either mats for crafting or the new currency (the Charles Points, Chuck Bucks, coins with Boyd's Beautiful Beard stamped on them) whatever that may be. Second, we will no longer get CXP tokens and in place of them we'll get gear drops. Of course, things could go several different ways in these situations. Here's a scenario: you kill a boss in a FP and get a gear drop, do we A) get a random item directly, or B) get a loot box that we have to open in order to get our item? They said that the interface for opening loot crates is being reworked, so it's possible that they'll go route B, and in that case I could see them keeping it all gated behind level 70 or 75. If they go route A with direct drops then I don't see them gating the deconstruction of items behind an arbitrary item level, which means that acquisition of the new currency should be available from level 1. This is reinforced, in my mind, by two things; first they specifically said gear drops will be replacing CXP tokens, and second if they did limit all of that to level 75 it would mean that current max level characters won't be able to begin working on the new drops and currency until they hit level 75 but from the tone of the stream I strongly feel they're moving away from that.

All of this, of course, is just speculation on my part, but it's what I took away from the stream, and could be clarified by a post from Eric.

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Joonbeams's Avatar


Joonbeams
06.03.2019 , 02:11 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by ceryxp View Post
...

I'm still of the mind that Galactic Renown will be available from level 1...

All of this, of course, is just speculation on my part, but it's what I took away from the stream, and could be clarified by a post from Eric.

...
Take a look at the article just posted. It doesn't mention anything about the character level. There will be Renown Crates, and they will be viable from Rank 1 (which is nice). But it doesn't say whether this will happen at level 1 or not. I really hope others can see why having to wait for these until level 75 (again, where a level 75 character can be playing the exact same content as a level one player) will be bad for pre-75 game play. There's really no logic to block this off at level 75, given the way the game is now set to make all content viable...

ceryxp's Avatar


ceryxp
06.03.2019 , 02:54 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
Take a look at the article just posted. It doesn't mention anything about the character level. There will be Renown Crates, and they will be viable from Rank 1 (which is nice). But it doesn't say whether this will happen at level 1 or not. I really hope others can see why having to wait for these until level 75 (again, where a level 75 character can be playing the exact same content as a level one player) will be bad for pre-75 game play. There's really no logic to block this off at level 75, given the way the game is now set to make all content viable...
I just posted a comment to Daniel's post about that article. Hopefully we can get some additional information. I can understand them wanting to keep things vague in the early stages, but there is a lot changing with far greater implications than just new set bonuses.
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Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
06.03.2019 , 02:58 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
...long dramatic post...

  • Just use an XP pack and/or level your toons during double xp.
  • Galactic Renown should allow you to achieve Tier 1 when under level 75, imo. This would prevent power-leveling GR. So I agree with you this far. It would be nice to level while I'm leveling.
  • What do you need to level GR for if you never plan to get the toon to 75?
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PennyAnn's Avatar


PennyAnn
06.03.2019 , 07:07 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
Not to be funny, but you do get a reward sub 75. You get XP, wich translates in new abilties every other level.
Not to be funny, but this is not reward enough to get people to play the content - which is why lowbie PvP (one of the most fun parts of the early game for me) are dead and you cannot get a queue for a lowbie match in a reasonable amount of time (if at all). Sorry, but he is 100% correct, they need to add incentive to lowbie PvP in order to make it a worthwhile use of your playtime as you are leveling up.

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Sarlegant's Avatar


Sarlegant
06.03.2019 , 09:53 PM | #29
I saw one of the posts in this thread that made a statement, along the lines of gear drops based somewhat on current ilvl. So if my current ilvl is 254, which applies to most of my alts, then I can expect loot, crates, quest rewards, whatever to drop in range with 254ilvl.

It’s not a new concept, it’s current world of Warcraft. Using ilvl, to determine gear somewhat random gear drops, creates a slow rolling gate system. It’s hard to get a better piece of gear based on an average, ilvl, of your current gear. In such a system, you get just as much worthless 230, 244/248, as we get in the current system. Without real data, I can imagine we will all be saving up chuckle points, so we can slowly buy gear that is 262, whatever the next tier is.

Ilvl, is an average of 14 pieces. A current example, my alts have a right side legacy set, all 258, ie my main’s armor, ripped into a legacy set. All of their left side is 252, so 7 pieces of 252. 236 augs in all of it, for an average ilvl of 255.

Personally I prefer some token system where I can work for and buy, craft, whatever required, to get a better piece. First and foremost, this eliminates duplicates.
My Sage is still in her 242 implants, because the 252 bracers randomed 8 weeks in a row. Yes I know I can spend MDC and buy her 252 implants. That’s the point right there... it’s slow mode, to direct buy her 252 implants.

From what I read and saw, just change the names. UC is now chuckle points, and will ultimately be needed to get those last few slots. Loot drops based on ilvl, may be quick at first to get some better pieces, but it sounds like it gets back to what we have now, random, duplicate city, slowed gate based on ilvl.

Another peeve... now that most of my toons are gc300, BioWare is just gonna give it away, again. I earned tier 5 crates, fresh 65s, or 70s, or 75s get em for free. Yes, I know, there will be no tier 5, no GC. Now your fresh toons, want it from level 1.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
06.04.2019 , 01:37 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Joonbeams View Post
Not About Gear
As to being argumentative, I felt as if you were. But then I saw this last part and I understand. So, on this we're cool. I'm not trying to argue, not trying to prove anything. I actually hope I'm wrong about my interpretation of the livestream. But again, I don't see how I can be clearer that I'm not talking about gear.

Even taking the parts you quoted that are "riddled" (i've edited them out for simplicity), I'm repeatedly talking about "RXP" and "currency". Over and over and over again: "RXP" and "currency." I actually went back and looked at the post and the only times I mention the word "gear" is in the section on "counter arguments" that I wanted to address up front. I don't see how it can be any clearer that I'm not focusing on gear than the fact that I don't even use the word. So again, this really is not about gear, other than the fact I suppose since this is an MMO - everything is about gear in some way. If that's your point, fine. Noted. But let me try again (since you say I've done a "very poor job") to explain what this is about.

Different Rewards for the Same Gameplay
Let me offer an illustration that you can think about over the rest of the post. Starting with GC (and especially with the Master's Datacron), you could take a toon, start it at level 70, and do nothing but base class stories from Tython to Corellia and earn CXP, UCs, crates, etc. just doing this content, i.e. without doing "endgame" content. Another player, doing the exact same content, but doing it at level 1-69 wouldn't earn any of these things. So again, 'endgame' and 'max-level' are not synonyms. The devs intentionally wanted people to be incentivized to play any content they wanted to in the game -- and that's a good goal. But doing the same content and getting nothing does not create the same incentives as doing that content and getting at least something. This made doing content pre-70 feel unnecessarily walled off, and discouraging.

The Base Game Playstyle
What Trixx, Lhance, and others have pointed out is that there is a playstyle out there (I'm not alone with it) that involves re-rolling toons and trying new things in the base game. For me, it's replaying class stories, leveling slowly, doing low/mid PvP. Low/mid PvP was one of the most fun parts of the game for me (as someone with very very little time to play) because I could try out new classes and styles while leveling. It's also worth noting that low/mids PvP requires a different set of tactical considerations, and actually is a unique gameplay option in it's own right from lvl 70 PvP.

That's what's kept me subbed since launch. If this isn't your playstyle, you may be unable to empathize. I know many people think of this game as the game after level 70 (usually for endgame "content" reasons). I get that. And understand it. But there is a substantial portion of the player base (not a majority prolly, but more than a trivial minority), that think of this game mostly as vanilla class stories, heroics, and mid/lows PvP. For us, the game kinda dies after reaching max level, and so we re-roll and start over. We enjoy this playstyle. But, like many, we also enjoy parts of the "endgame" so we'd like easily pivot to the endgame (where it actually would be more about gear) whenever we decided to use our currencies and not feel like our previous play was 'wasted.' This is quintessential "play as you want."

Why 5.0 Was a Step Backward for the Base Game
Now, recall the illustration above. The principle problem with 5.0--for my playstyle--is that there were new game currencies, rewards, ranks, and XP that were only available after level 70. To be clear, we've always had gear that was only available at max level (hence why this isn't about gearing), and we've always had content that was only max-level (hence why this isn't an "endgame" issue). What 5.0 did that was new, and IMO a step backwards, was that it: a) separated the ability to earn game currencies from pre-max level players, and b) actively discouraged playing base game content before being a 70 (for at least the reason in "a"). Which leads to the final point.

This Simple "Fix" Hurts No One
This has had a substantial negative impact on the game pre-70, particularly in low/mid PvP, but not only there. It made leveling to 70 feel like a chore, because, unlike pre-GC, you couldn't progress your toon. And this 'gating' doesn't do anything to make the game better for people of other playstyles, so it's one of the many areas where the fix I'm requesting doesn't harm anyone, but it could help some. I usually advocate for these. So my ask is to please make the currencies and RXP available from level 1....
So the only thing you could buy with the comms from PvP was deco items? You see, you can edit all day, but the point is, all the currencies that you lamented the loss of are directly tied to what? Gear. Specifically, end game gear, or you wouldn't be lamenting the loss of them, or even be bringing them up, since they've been gone for a very long time.

So you PvP from x level to cap for all those comms back in the day, what is it you were going to buy with them?

Or, you PvE from x level to cap for all those comms, and what is it you were going to buy with them?

The answer is, in both cases, "Gear", so explain how I'm supposed to buy into "I'm not talking about gear" when what you're talking about is literally currencies used to buy gear.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?