Bioware has caved to a couple of posters with big mouths and even bigger opinions of themselves here on the forums. They throw hissy-fits, stomp their feet, and threaten to quit until they get their way. Then they're all smiles. My 18-month old niece is more mature than some of those being nominated as class representatives.

But here's the real issue that Bioware itself has pointed out in the past: only about 5% of the community uses the forums. So first off, since it was announced on the forums, only about 5% of the population may have seen it. They may inform some of their guildies in game and what-not by word-of-mouth, but at least everyone in the real world knows when election day is coming because all registered voters (anyone with a non-FTP account in this situation) are provided with notice.

Elections in the US and other countries are far from perfect, but imagine if your representative was elected with not even 5% voter turnout and received votes from 1-2% of the entire eligible voting population? Do they really represent us? The answer is no. Bioware is allowing a fraction of the community to select individuals that will conspire and act in concert to control discussion on classes that EVERYONE plays. Bioware has not made the decision to empower the players to have their voices heard, Instead, the sham elections will net us an oligarchy of the biggest complainers. Shame on you Bioware, and Eric Musco for not only letting this happen, but encouraging it. Maybe I should throw a tantrum until I get my way. I quit.

This is what the real community really asks of you:

Grow some balls. No really. Be prepared to actively defend your product and your game decisions, including class balance. We don't expect an answer to every question and a tweak to every class based on forum posts.

I do believe that you (Eric) and your community team go through the forums well and your level of responsiveness to the community has greatly improved over time (it's not perfect but it's getting better). I do believe that you, your team, and the development team have the ability to recognize the big issues from the small.

When players encounter real problems in game, especially with class balance, they tend to hit the forums. That is your cue. Find the large problems, address them. We're not asking you to make changes because of these large issues every time, simply explain to the community some of the reasoning behind the decision. We (the reasonable community) understand that the development team does not act arbitrarily. Let the discussion ensue. There will always be a few whiners, have the balls to face them, rather than hand them the keys.

We do not need the oligarchic middle men that you have proposed. The whole community has access through the forums. We should not have individual community members hijacking the process and deciding what questions get answered. That is Bioware's job and and it's time to step up to the plate and engage the community at large.

Long live the Resistance!

Now that I have read through this, it concerns me. In effect, the representative is just a secretary that compiles the top 3 questions. The rep provides no feedback and there is no two way street for making a class better. The rep's "job" is the same of the Bioware Employee's that are supposed to be monitoring the forums and communicating with the Dev team.

here I originally liked this concept (at least the one I had assumed) I am now very concerned about this one. It leads me to questions about how much of the feedback we post during PTS was really relayed? Are bugs still in this game because no one on the Dev team knows (Even though we post about it)?

If the people who have the jobs of interacting and relaying information from the Community to the Dev team are not doing that job, why are they not being fired? Why does the community have to do their job for free? If they are too busy, why are more not hired? Why are we picking up the tab for free?

Good morning folks!

 

Just to try to hit some of the concerns you are having about the Class Reps...

 

• Need PvE and PvP reps! - Like I said, this may be something we consider but since this whole idea is a new concept, I want to let it grow naturally. Let's see how the first round goes before we start expecting we will need to setup predetermined rules. I can assure you that we will recommend to the Reps, once chosen, that they try to make sure their questions are diverse across playstyle and spec. Also, it will be really obvious to us if they aren't!
  
• Mirrored AC Representatives - The way it will work is that once the Reps are chosen, one of the mirrors will act as the Rep the first time and then it will rotate. For example, the Gunslinger Rep will submit the top 3 for July, the Sniper will then be the new Rep and will submit the next round of Top 3 in August or September.
  
• Why only Top 3? It should be 4 or 5! - Our original incarnation of the idea was actually a top 5. In talking with the Combat guys, they plan to put some serious work into these answers whenever possible. This could include design philosophy and math. Because of this, we decided we would rather have 3 really good answers than 5 less good ones.
  

 

Just keep this in mind. The goal of this is simply to help create a dialog and interaction between the studio and the forums concerns about classes, class balance, etc. This is just a fun way to create the conversation and is something new we are trying. I wouldn't go too crazy stressing over unknowns as they are just that, unknown! We will absolutely make adjustments to how this works should we see that it is needed.

 

-eric

Do not make adjustments and let this idea "grow naturally", do your job. You are not creating a dialog with the community, you are making a dialog with certain individuals and, as Grimsblood stated, are outsourcing your own duties as community manager. Address the whole community, or none at all. You don't need to give in to the whims and tantrums of a tiny, loud minority.

If you don't think that the rambling egotists are going to seize control for themselves regardless of your rotation of reps then read post #17 in this thread. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=659773&page=2

That is not something that may happen, that is something that is going to happen. Do your homework next time, Eric.

Good morning folks!

 

Just to try to hit some of the concerns you are having about the Class Reps...

 

• Need PvE and PvP reps! - Like I said, this may be something we consider but since this whole idea is a new concept, I want to let it grow naturally. Let's see how the first round goes before we start expecting we will need to setup predetermined rules. I can assure you that we will recommend to the Reps, once chosen, that they try to make sure their questions are diverse across playstyle and spec. Also, it will be really obvious to us if they aren't!
  
• Mirrored AC Representatives - The way it will work is that once the Reps are chosen, one of the mirrors will act as the Rep the first time and then it will rotate. For example, the Gunslinger Rep will submit the top 3 for July, the Sniper will then be the new Rep and will submit the next round of Top 3 in August or September.
  
• Why only Top 3? It should be 4 or 5! - Our original incarnation of the idea was actually a top 5. In talking with the Combat guys, they plan to put some serious work into these answers whenever possible. This could include design philosophy and math. Because of this, we decided we would rather have 3 really good answers than 5 less good ones.
  

 

Just keep this in mind. The goal of this is simply to help create a dialog and interaction between the studio and the forums concerns about classes, class balance, etc. This is just a fun way to create the conversation and is something new we are trying. I wouldn't go too crazy stressing over unknowns as they are just that, unknown! We will absolutely make adjustments to how this works should we see that it is needed.

 

-eric

Eric, the problem with having PvE and PvP represented by one person is this: There's very, very few people in any class that actually EXCEL in both. Example, sniper forums, which is the one I care about as it's my main. Paowee is going to get the position. He's without question a top ranked, if not best, expert when it comes to knowing sniper PvE inside and out. All three specs. There's no one that knows more.

However....PvP? Not so much.

This is going to be a problem, and as usual, the PvP group will get hosed

As always...

Another very complicated system (bolster anyone? ) by Bioware.

• [*]Need PvE and PvP reps! - Like I said, this may be something we consider but since this whole idea is a new concept, I want to let it grow naturally. Let's see how the first round goes before we start expecting we will need to setup predetermined rules. I can assure you that we will recommend to the Reps, once chosen, that they try to make sure their questions are diverse across playstyle and spec. Also, it will be really obvious to us if they aren't!

Roleplay is an important playstyle in a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game, and you people just keep ignoring it! Various classes have issues in roleplay as well, like their animations of rest abilities not lasting long enough to be viable for roleplay, lightsabers shutting off during RP combat, some skills and their overblown particle effects posing problems with immersion in an RP enviroment and more.

Yes, it may be nitpicking, but no mention of roleplay even though there were concerns about it is just very disheartening. I guess as a loyal subscriber from day one (plus early access), beta tester, etc. I should be used to it by now, since RP features like chat bubbles, sitting in chairs, etc. are still missing from the game despite having been promised over and over again to be in soon since launch. Still I'm just a very disappointed roleplayer, as our issues and wants always seem to be put on the backburner for virtually anything else. I've always been hopeful that things will change and that you will finally give us some love (that doesn't involve us having to be milked real money via cartel coins as the Appearance Designer kiosk does).

Why did you ignore RP again? Roleplay is an important playstyle in a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game, and you people just keep ignoring it!

Because the topic is referring to "class feedback", which 100% of that takes place via PvP and PvE.

RP doesn't have "class issues", or at least what the team is trying to get dialogue on.

C'mon, at least be sensible.

The devs have to juggle developing future content, all bug fixes, and many other tasks. Sometimes that one bug may just be a lower priority than something else that is being worked on, and this includes coming from PTS.

 

 

-eric

Not trying to rain on your parade here Eric, but it seems some of the most broken issues that is considered "game-breaking" to many tend to take that backseat of "low priority" when it comes to the "time of fix", which is really discouraging.

ie; Bolster (3 months), undermanned WZ's (for 2 weeks - which is a long time with this issue, which isn't fully

Just a thought.

I have a novel idea to solve the PvP vs. PvE issues...

Let's collude: Select a Repub player who focuses on PvP and Imperial player who focuses on PvE for each Advanced Class or vice versa. This would allow both player bases to be equally represented. Work within your respective mirrors to make it work

I have a novel idea to solve the PvP vs. PvE issues...

 

Let's collude: Select a Repub player who focuses on PvP and Imperial player who focuses on PvE for each Advanced Class or vice versa. This would allow both player bases to be equally represented. Work within your respective mirrors to make it work

Yeah has crossed my mind and would be fantastic if coordinated properly....not sure how easy to do.

Ditto what Pistols said.

Example: Why did it take 8+ weeks to stop giving PUB Faction an extra 8 UC's for weeklies? I know that is petty, but come on guys EIGHT WEEKS?

Example: Consumable bug that was fixed 24 hours after CM came online. (You know the one for clicking during cast to get free consumable that was around for MONTHS before CM). That was INSTANT Fix, but 8 weeks for free comms for a single faction? (Don't get me started about HK in Foundry - still bugged)

Example: Kephess (EC) Fight. Killing Transdoshians too quickly results in a penalty that a Bomber doesn't come out and you go straight to the droids after standing around waiting. REALLY? Penalty for killing TOO quickly? Granted this is "Old" content for many for still folks do this content and titles are now fixed as well (Again).

I think the concept here is great, but we should be able to ADD a score sheet to see HOW BW is doing. IE: We pick our TOP THREE items and then TRACK them. One gets resolve then it's moved to a "Completed" thread. Like topic #1 resolved in 2.3.1 - Moved to completed and a the top three is updated. I guess we could get fancy and assign "Value" to how well it was completed.

This is a horrible idea. Class representatives just end up being popularity contests for Forum Warriors. This has been a disaster in most every other game that implemented them. You end up with people focused on the 1 thing they care about most, like PvP or PvE and they are detrimental to the class balance for years. EQ's Ranger representative didn't even participate in raiding. He complained about how hard it was to survive as a low level Ranger. As a result, they buffed Rangers at lower levels and end game Rangers fell behind in DPS output compared to other DPS classes. He also played his Ranger as an archer and not a melee, which was the better method.

 

Same thing will happen here. Class representatives will only focus on a particular tree or play style like PvP vs PvE. Either split the representatives based on play styles, or elect a group per class.

It's like people voting a popular hollywood actor for a seat in the government and then wondering why nothing good is coming out of it

The nomination threads are a pretty interesting read. All but a handful are already in PVE vs PVP mode. Some are in all out war. There is even one where they are debating a nominee qualification based on the fact they don't clip their GCDs closely enough in videos... heh.

The handful that aren't bickering are doing it right by backing one strong PVE and one strong PVP nominee.

There are two parts to your post I want to hit, first bugs being reported and not fixed. Amber could come into this thread and attest to just how vigilant we are about tracking bugs and passing them on to the development team. In fact, that is a large part of Amber's job on the team! Unfortunately, just passing a bug onto the dev folks doesn't guarantee it suddenly gets fixed. The devs have to juggle developing future content, all bug fixes, and many other tasks. Sometimes that one bug may just be a lower priority than something else that is being worked on, and this includes coming from PTS.

Popularity contest. I've played with, and in PvP against, some of the most nominated names and I don't feel like they should speak for anyone because in-game'wise they're not on a level to do so. Their votes are merely based on some theorycrafting threads they posted. That's math and not actually playing the game.

And really, what the point of voting for a more or less strict PvE'er when 9 out of 10 problems revolve around PvP?

How about you, BW, actually scout the forums instead and adress the things that pop up 50 times per day instead of outsourcing it to a person who most likely only will represent a niche.

Raph Koster came up with the concept for SWG, and said pretty much exactly that as the purpose of the program, to create as another poster just said "forum warriors". It has nothing to do with improving the actual game, as I said, the devs already see our issues and know of them, and could easily respond. Heck, the likes of Eric who only make 1 or 2 posts a day, could easily be gathering such data.

Yep. The intentions behind this idea may be sound but it's difficult to see how much good can come of this aside from having a little fun with some extra forum traffic. I believe Musco himself said that less that 5% of the subscriber base use the forums on a regular basis so this a niche initiative at best. So far I recognize a lot of nepotism in the nomination threads- guildies cross-nominating each other. And there needs to be a distinction between PVE/PVP reps. Otherwise they are just secretaries paying BW $15/month to work on BW's behalf.

Deputizing forum goers to help the CM team is fine but let's call this what it is: crowd-sourcing, PR, and some fun conversations to be had. It reminds me of those annual employee opinion surveys which companies use to give employees the illusion that their voice matters(some firms actually take the feedback to heart, most auto-discard it). If this is supposed to alleviate some burden on the understaffed CM team, great, but it could also backfire and create more work for them.

Hey everyone!

 

I am happy to announce today a new initiative that we are going to be launching here on the forums. It is something that we have seen requested since launch, and we think it will do really well in helping to communicate more with all of you on a topic you certainly want more information on; Classes. What we are going to be launching, with your help, are Class Representatives! Here are the details on how they will be selected, what they will do, and a bit about the expectations you should have about the new initiative.

 

How Will Class Representatives Be Selected?

This process is going to be largely in your hands! As of the time of making this post, you will be able to head over to your Advanced Class Forum and you will find a post where you can begin nominations for who your Class Representative will be. After a span of time (a week or so) we will create a poll with the names we saw mentioned most, by each AC, and you will vote on who you want your rep to be! I want to note that Class Representatives will be shared across mirrored ACs, so Sentinel and Marauder will have the same representative. We are still going to allow one to be selected for each, but they will rotate in their responsibilities.

 

Also, each Class Representative will only serve for one “term” (more on that later). After that a new representative will be elected!

 

What Will They Do?

Upon the Class representatives being selected, we will release a schedule. On each scheduled date listed, the chosen representative for each Class will make a forum post in their Class forum with the top 3 things they want to have answered or commented on. Our current plan is to do 4 ACs each month with 2 ACs being able to propose questions every 2 weeks.

 

Up until the scheduled date, the rep’s job is to work to figure out what the top 3 issues or questions are for their Class. Once posted, we will begin working with the Combat Team to get an answer or comment to all 3 of those issues, regardless of what they are! Our goal is a one week turnaround from the time that you post the questions for us to get you an answer. I will stress now that our development schedule will take priority at all times, so if our Combat Team is unavailable due to development constraints, any of this schedule is subject to change.

 

Expectations

One thing I want to make sure of is that we very carefully hedge some of your expectations of this program. Our number one goal is to get your questions answered. We have known for some time that players have had Class balance questions, and it has been tricky to get them answered. The purpose of this initiative is to get those questions addressed as directly as possible. I want to make sure we stress the following things:

 

• It is possible, and even likely, that we could disagree with player sentiment towards something in relation to Class balance. Ex: Why does <insert class> suck at <insert thing>?! We may respond that we feel they are in a good place in our design goals and we will do our best to explain why.
  
• Attaching feedback to your top 3 in no way guarantees that it will be feedback that is actionable. The purpose is to allow a set dialog between our Combat Team and you here on the forums. Just because something appears in the top 3 provided by a representative does not mean it is feedback that will garner special treatment.
  
• Class Representatives are player elected and will not be granted any special access to the BioWare team. If chosen, you won’t have to sign an NDA or anything similar. You will be a player-elected forum user who assists your Class in formulating the top issues and concerns you would like to have BioWare commentary on.
  
• As with all things on the forums, please remain respectful. Please respect each other, your chosen Class Representatives, and the BioWare developers.
  

 

Any feedback, suggestions, comments, concerns about this new program you can feel free to post in this thread. Otherwise, feel free to head over to your Advanced Class subforum and get to nominating! As we get closer to voting, we will post a schedule on when each Class will be asked to post their top 3. Thanks!

 

-The Community Team

 

To get to your Advanced Classes nomination post, follow these threads:

 

Operative / Sniper

Sorcerer / Assassin

Mercenary / Powertech

Marauder / Juggernaut

 

Scoundrel / Gunslinger

Sage / Shadow

Commando / Vanguard

Sentinel / Guardian

WOW , What took so long this is not a new idea but a very good one , its been around sense EQ1 or even maybe before .. I started playing MMO in EQ 1 just at the time the Moon expac came out .

I have no negative feedback to give.. its works in other game why not here .. after all SW is a MMO , it is getting bigger and better every day .

TO add in WOW and rift I don't remember with EQ 1 . you get tittle that displays in game .

WHY not give them a title so it's seen in game ? .. Id even go as far as giving them and only

them a mount you can only get by being a forum rep .

Stuff like that ..

This is certainly an interesting question to raise, and you are probably not alone in asking it so I thought I would answer it. Except the part about me being fired of course

 

There are two parts to your post I want to hit, first bugs being reported and not fixed. Amber could come into this thread and attest to just how vigilant we are about tracking bugs and passing them on to the development team. In fact, that is a large part of Amber's job on the team! Unfortunately, just passing a bug onto the dev folks doesn't guarantee it suddenly gets fixed. The devs have to juggle developing future content, all bug fixes, and many other tasks. Sometimes that one bug may just be a lower priority than something else that is being worked on, and this includes coming from PTS.

 

As for us as a team passing information on to the dev team to get answers, this is absolutely something we do. I work constantly to try to get answers to questions you guys have here on the forums. However, sometimes I am just unable to provide an answer which is why it may appear we are remaining quiet. The other issue, is that sometimes even when we provide answers, you guys will feel like we are ignoring the question you are trying to ask. Class Reps solve both of these problems.

 

First, this new initiative allowed me to get a "guarantee" of sorts from the combat folks that no matter what we throw at them, they will give you some sort of answer to that question. Like I said in the intro, this may not always be exactly what you want to hear, but it will be an answer. Secondly, we can't be answering the wrong questions since you the community get to choose them.

 

At the end of the day this is of course something that we could do as a Community team and should the Class Reps not work out as we hope, we will continue to work on getting you answers about Classes. However, in the meantime this new system allows us a cool new opportunity to work together and I hope you guys can see it as that.

 

-eric

Can we get answers to questions like, Why the PVE relics have been fixed but the PVP ones haven't? You'd think wouldn't you ha ha

Hope this is a joke. She's not the best sorc healer I have ever seen, nor has she much presence in the sorc class section and she mostly writes guides for new content rather than actual classes.

I'm gonna agree here she is very good at guides and has helped me a lot with strat fights , so I can get a good idea of what the fight is all about but I have run with her a few times she is ok at healing etc. but I'm not here downing her I support her site fully but agree with mastirkal or have to , not saying that to put her down ..

everyone is good at some thing . ..

i'm extremely happy about this actually.

ME to, I was wondering the other day when it would happen . if its done right the in game players that never come here will still know there is a rep in game they can talk to with limits ,so the GM can get tickets etc stuff like done faster ..

I honestly see this , can be a very good thing , if it is done right .

Hey guys,

 

After seeing a lot of the feedback you guys are giving here in this thread we are going to add an addendum to one of the rules. As you guys have mentioned some folks have some concerns about a Class Representative not doing a good job of representing both PvP and PvE concerns. I can definitely see the validity of this concern and although I don't really want to put too many rules in place, we agree this may be needed. So...

 

When a Class Representative posts his top 3 questions/issues to go to the Combat team, 1 question must be PvE related and 1 must be PvP. That will allow the 3rd question to be a wildcard and cover any other issue they feel is necessary. We will allow exceptions if needed, like if there are clearly 3 PvE issues which overshadow PvP, we can talk with the Representative about exceptions. However, as a general rule, 1 PvP, 1 PvE, 1 whatever you want!

 

Keep the feedback coming guys and make sure you are nominating reps!

 

-eric

I made a post about it over at the sniper forums and it is something like this!

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=659904