Matchmaker doesn't seem perfect, and that may or may not be ok. More importantly, that's been discussed in other threads.

 

I want to discuss matchmaker's predilection for making 12s. At this point, I don't think it is a coincidence (aka, I think it's actually an effect of the patch). I'm not sure it represents an actual change- maybe matchmaker always loved 12s this much, but was never willing to wait long enough to matchmake before, and always had to labor under the split pool. Maybe nothing changed about that, but what has almost definitely changed is the number of 12s happening.

 

Anyway, I split this into mostly two categories, one of which seems pretty clear as something that should be addressed, and one of which is really, like, what does everyone think.

 

Aborted Games.

 

The 12s it creates are often not full by the time the game starts. I see 12s terminate due to timeout 30 seconds after launch. This isn't people leaving, this is people never getting there. It's pretty bizarre to see 11 players on 1 side and 4 on the other, with 10 seconds before the ships exit hyperspace. Even the games that don't abort often start threatening to do so, and starting with two players difference is pretty common. I've seen this at some different times of day, so I don't think it is due to a multibot griefer or exploiter, but I can't absolutely eliminate the possibility. Regardless, the devs will have metrics on this, and they absolutely need to look into it. The 12s seem to amplify this issue, which is odd. The current situation is generally unsatisfactory, at least at certain times of day and on certain servers, but it isn't like, totally broken. But it's close to that.

 

12s is different than 8s

 

Most of GSF has been 8s. Arguably the ship balance is a little more tuned for 8s. 12s have been pretty rare, and have always felt different. Is this something that the community wants? Does it need enough time to figure out if 12s are generally better, and worth waiting for? The matchmaker seems to JUST make 12s if it can, and only settles for 8s rarely. Is that the correct amount of 12s? If not, what is?

 

Here's some things 12s does:

1- Increases the penalty for being spawn camped.

2- Increases the frenetic feeling of any given conflict point, based on extra enemies and allies.

3- Increases the magnitude of the disparity in at least some of the conflict points.

4- Increases the power of aoe buffs, debuffs, and damage.

5- Grows the space for off roles and support roles.

6- Reduces the impact of a given 4 man team.

7- Reduces the impact of an given player.

8- Increase the amount of focus damage an extended player must tank or avoid, increasing the value of nests and control points, and increasing the value of absolute defenses and reducing the value of percentile defenses.

 

Probably some others. It's almost a different game. I've always liked 12s enough, but personally I'd like to see matchmaker make some 8s some times. I think a good ratio would be more like 50/50, as I believe they are both pretty different but valid game modes.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Verain

If I had to guess, I’d speculate that prior to 5.9.2 there would be somewhere on the order of 24 people across both factions queued up for GSF, but since it had to be restricted to faction, and it wasn’t trying to balance 4-person teams or individual skilled solo-players, the system was waiting for either 16 people on one faction or at least 8 of the other. Now what we are seeing is queues popping with the same core 24-ish players that had been queuing before, they’re just able to play right away now without waiting. Prior to 5.9.2 I would get on a toon, usually pub side, and it might take an hour for a queue to pop on SS during off peak. That hasn’t been the case last week when I played.

I dont think the system was always programmed to prefer 12s over 8s because when we were testing 5.5 it pretty much popped right away once the test groups queued.

Nah, I mean like, it could have preferred 12, but previously it wouldn't wait, and now it has some kind of delay. It doesn't instapop pretty much ever, even when there's plenty on, probably to give it more time to actually matchmake.

ALSO:

 

We just had a game where our team had 10 people at the start, and theirs was 11 or 12.

 

At some point, we went up to 11 I think, but then back down to 10.

 

After this, we got a "matchmaker will end the game in 30 seconds" warning. Does everyone remember the "7v9" bug? Well, this bug put 13 people on their team. Our team only had 10. So it expired because 10v13 is a three man difference.

 

I feel there's a few problems here. Why is it adding a 13th player? Why is it adding players to the team that is already up on people? What's going on?

What I have seen, 12s often lack a few players at start, but are usually filled up pretty quickly. I have not seen that the team that is short a few player at start has a great disadvantage (but then on the other hand I have not been looking for that either...)

 

Personally, I have always liked 12s, but I agree that it would be nice to have a more even distribution between 12s and 8s. In particular, I really hope that the matchmaker prefers to have two parallel 8s rather than one 12 and a few players waiting in queue.

I'm just not good enough to compete with the veterans. My ship is fully upgraded so the game thinks I'm good, but I'm useless. What can I do? Edited August 13, 2018 by JecVanguard

I really don't feel the game is balanced around having 12 players on either side, I didn't mind playing the odd 12v12 before this patch as a different little game to mix it up, but seeing 90%+ of the games this week be 12v12's has really been less enjoyable for me.

 

As for the matches not filling in time and getting more aborted starts then ever, I think it might be time to add some extra time to the clock before the match starts.

 

Currently when your queue window pops up you have somewhere around 1 minute to enter or leave the pop. If you take it at the very last second you load in and the game starts about 10 seconds later. If someone was AFK and the window simply counted down and disappeared that means the matchmaker now gives a new player a pop up window and if that player doesn't take that pop immediately that game is going to start a player short.

 

Since the matchmaker is making games with even more players now this is happening more. If there is a 3 player difference between the teams the game ends in 30 seconds, with more players in the games it's easier to get that 3 player difference so we're seeing more games aborted.

 

 

I'd suggest returning to prioritizing 8v8 games and adding another minute to the start of games before you can hit ready and spawn in. This will give the players more time to accept all the pops needed to fill out the games and will result in less aborted games off the start just because players might be AFK or just plain not taking their queue pops.

Hey there folks!

 

I just wanted to pop in here really quickly to add a little clarity to this conversation. With the changes that came in 5.9.2 there were no changes made to the match size logic. Starfighter matches have always attempted to make a 12v12 match first and upon failing to do that they create 8v8 matches. The changes in frequency of 12v12 seem to be caused by the larger pool of players that have come from the cross factional queues.

 

We are watching the player sentiment on this. If 12v12 matches being more normal is harmful to the game mode than we will take the time to re-evaluate how matches are created.

 

I hope this help.

Thanks,

Bret

 

Thanks for the clarficiation! Good to see that you are watching the development.

 

As I said, I think it is fun with 12s, but it seems to me as if the balancing in 5.5 (which were much appreciated!) were designed for 8s. Bomber/gunships nests are quite a bit tougher to break up in 12s than in 12, simply because knocking out a few gunships has a much greater impact on a nest of 8 compared to a nest of 12. If 12s are going to be the new standard, further balancing could be necessary.

Personally I like the 12v12's better then 8v8's. It makes it harder for a group of 4 to completely dominate a match, if the match maker is working properly.

Alright thanks for the update Bret, good to know. Hopefully this works out smooth as the algorithm gets adjusted.

We are watching the player sentiment on this. If 12v12 matches being more normal is harmful to the game mode than we will take the time to re-evaluate how matches are created.

 

 

All feedback ever given in GSF has been based on the idea that 8s are the normal mode and 12s are a rare-spawn. I do think 8s should be more common than "basically never". 8s and 12s are like pretty different games entirely.

 

I think putting 8s and 12s on footing closer to 50/50 is more like having 12 maps in the game, and the current mode is like we lost our old six maps, and had them replaced with six different maps.

Can we just get GSF to be legacy (all your pub toons can access pub ships, and imp toons imp ships)?

 

 

This will help players do more GSF while doing other stuff, vs having to chose between story on an alt/etc *or* hopping onto that toon they have ships unlocked on

I think, as a long-time GSF player, 12 vs. 12 is always preferable.

 

The maps often feel too large for 8 vs 8. We got used to it over the years, with a smaller player pool, but now that it is cross-faction, I'm glad most matches are again 12 vs. 12.

 

If folks can think back to when GSF first came out, 12 vs 12 was normal - in fact, it was every match. And it's, in my opinion, way better this way. There is more room for a variety of ships and approaches to the maps, both objective and death match.

Edited August 16, 2018 by arunav

If folks can think back to when GSF first came out, 12 vs 12 was normal - in fact, it was every match.

 

12s were more common, but it was much more common to see multiple 8s. Multiple 8s was normal at server prime time on at least three servers prepatch as well. 12s have never been even half of matches until this patch.

 

There is more room for a variety of ships and approaches to the maps, both objective and death match.

 

I don't think this is necessarily true. It's quite possible that the meta will end up shrunk as a result. Or hey, it could be bigger. But it's not necessarily more optimal to run more ship types just because there are more ships.

 

 

ALSO I want to share what seems to be a reasonably predictable thing. Whenever queues stop on a server, they seem to stop. That is to say, matchmaker goes from making 12s, to making no games at all for a few hours (we're talking late at night here, server time). If matchmaker really didn't have any unintended changes to its logic, it wouldn't do this- at least some of the time, it would make some 8s before it was done. I doubt the whole server goes to bed simultaneously, across three servers. So there will be at least 24 people on at minute M, then at minute M+13, there are not even 16? At least 9 people simul-logoff in that same window, every time?

 

I don't buy it. Matchmaker is reluctant to make 8s. If there's not 24 players in the pool, but there are 16, matchmaker should eventually pull the trigger, and I think he does so much more rarely than I would expect.

I very much agree with Verain on this issue. 12v12 is a good game-mode from time to time, but I much prefer 8v8s. The FPS drop from 24 players is annoying - for example 6/7/8 bombers mine-laying in the same place drops FPS significantly. Which I've never found to be a real issue in 8v8 (maybe this is just me and my computer, but I've heard similar complaints about 12v12 from other players as well).

 

Don't get me wrong, 12v12 is enjoyable and presents a different challenge, but all the time it becomes tiresome. To have it more along the lines of a 50/50 split would be preferable in my opinion.

 

Thanks to the Devs though for the recent focus that GSF has had in the past year - it is very much appreciated!

I'm also of the opinion that 12v12 should be less common than 8v8. The points stated nicely by Verain and others (8v8 centered balance, more confusion for new players, harder to perform well both solo and in a group) are all valid. I'd also like to touch more on the clientside issue of a 12v12. Because of the significant increase in both players and mines/drones, FPS drops are very common in those situations. For me personally, it drops from a completely playable 30-40 FPS in an 8v8 to around 15-20 in a 12v12. Battle over Iokath hits those numbers even harder. This is tolerable on an infrequent basis, and I do admit that a 12v12 can be a nice change of pace every few matches or so, but playing like that 90% of the time is aggravating. I would be satisfied with a 12v12 every three or four matches. Thanks for paying attention to these posts though, Bret. It's nice to know that someone is actually keeping an eye on this comparatively neglected game mode.

I'm also of the opinion that 12v12 should be less common than 8v8. The points stated nicely by Verain and others (8v8 centered balance, more confusion for new players, harder to perform well both solo and in a group) are all valid. I'd also like to touch more on the clientside issue of a 12v12. Because of the significant increase in both players and mines/drones, FPS drops are very common in those situations. For me personally, it drops from a completely playable 30-40 FPS in an 8v8 to around 15-20 in a 12v12. Battle over Iokath hits those numbers even harder. This is tolerable on an infrequent basis, and I do admit that a 12v12 can be a nice change of pace every few matches or so, but playing like that 90% of the time is aggravating. I would be satisfied with a 12v12 every three or four matches. Thanks for paying attention to these posts though, Bret. It's nice to know that someone is actually keeping an eye on this comparatively neglected game mode.

 

I see it completely differently. 8v8 weren't truly centered around balance. 8v8's are to easy for 1 premade to just stomp on the opposition and completely wreck them. In a 12v12 one premade is only 1/3 of the team. while that same premade may still have a major advantage, they now have to depend on the other 8 team mates for victory far more then they would in an 8v8. We've grown to used to having almost exclusively 8v8 matches since GSF launched, so it's what we're used to. Having the matches be 12v12 (if they fix the matchmaker to be based more on skill) will make for far better matches in the long term.

I do enjoy facing off against 12 others but wish the matchmaker would look at the smaller numbers too. On SS I have seen a lot of matches end before they even start as neither side has the players required. I am not sure if it is matchmaker having issues or that many people declining pops or if it's not letting people in?

 

We were seeing this leading up to the update as well. Is the matchmaker on SS wonky or is something else going on with the players?

 

Also late at night it would be nice if the matchmaker could still face off the remaining pilots. It can pull from both sides now why not line up any even number above 5 players a side? As long as it's putting the two highest pilots across from each other at least pops would continue.

I do think making a 6v6 would be really rough if there's any four mans in the queue. I'm also not sure a 6v6 is a great number. It's probably playable but barely. I'd like some deliberate 8s, now that the matchmaker can obviously make 12s, and I'd definitely want it to actually pop an 8s when the queue starts to thin out instead of sitting there stonefaced for hours, when there are, at least SOME of the time, enough people to pop an 8s with.

RedFantom posted a response to this, signed by some of the European players (and the non-Malgus players who hang with them), but put it in a dupe-thread:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=952955

Edited August 16, 2018 by Verain

I have mixed feelings bout all the 12s. I think it affects TDM more negatively than domination. Aces in a 12v12 TDM have way more targets, which actually make those games faster and more one-sided than 8v8. Aces matter less in domination matches, and I think those actually work better in 12v12 because there is more of a team available for team effort, if that makes sense.

 

Personally, I'd like to see a 50/50 of 8s/12s.

 

Course, I'm also the type of pilot that gives no ****s who wins as long as I have fun.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Ymris

The time before start needs to be increased. On SS matches end all the time with one side being short players. So more time for the queue to find replacements for people not taking pops is needed. That or have the queue take it's pick from the players solo queued and make the match even at least.

 

Spending a long time queued or even a short time for those lucky it really sucks to have the match end due to this. Watching a horde descend on your rag tag few who accepted the pop just to get stomped before it times out.

The time before start needs to be increased. On SS matches end all the time with one side being short players. So more time for the queue to find replacements for people not taking pops is needed. That or have the queue take it's pick from the players solo queued and make the match even at least.

 

Spending a long time queued or even a short time for those lucky it really sucks to have the match end due to this. Watching a horde descend on your rag tag few who accepted the pop just to get stomped before it times out.

 

After playing a couple of weeks of these chain 12v12's I completely agree that the before match timer should go up. I think an extra minute would be perfect, it would give more time for new players to be added if the first set of players happened to be AFK and didn't accept the pop.

 

Right now if you happen to be AFK the window will time out 10 seconds before the match starts. Meaning if the next round of people don't immediately join their new pops the game will be short players and end within 30 seconds because of lack of players. We're seeing this more then ever in 12v12's because there's just more players in the matchs.

 

By adding an extra minute there's more time to fill out the ranks and both sides. Not to mention a little more time for the teams to chat in Ops before the game starts to discuss strategy would likely be a great addition for team coordination.

I'm shocked for both ground pvp and gsf that matches begin when one side isn't full. Instead of adding more timers why not just freeze until full, then start the timer. If someone leaves before it starts, timer stops and re-starts after it is filled. Meaning, the war will not start unless both sides are full. Edited August 28, 2018 by Stellarcrusade