Could someone clarify to me what a Mary Sue is?

Mary/Marty Sue= A perfect being, IE: Ultimate power, knowledge of everything, can't be beaten, perfect personality, no flaws to the character, can do pretty much everything, so on and so forth.

Mary/Marty Sue= A perfect being, IE: Ultimate power, knowledge of everything, can't be beaten, perfect personality, no flaws to the character, can do pretty much everything, so on and so forth.

So Vitiate, then.

So Vitiate, then.

Especially if this is Legend's version.

Lol, that would actually be a lot more accurate.

 

Especially if this is Legend's version.

I know, right?

I know, right?

The correct answer is always Darth Sidious, regardless of which Sith you are comparing him to. He is canonically the most powerful Sith to have ever lived.

The correct answer is always Darth Sideous, regardless of which Sith you are comparing him to. He is canonically the most powerful Sith to have ever lived.

We may bicker back and forth, but the TOP TIER OF ALL CANNON always says that Sideious is #1. None of the sith that come after that statement come near enough to his power to challenge him. The ones that came before are historically considered and surpassed. Was this quote made way before the SIth Emperor was even conceived? Yep. Was it made before Sideous had all of these insane feats? Yep. That is part of the reason WHY there were some absurd books/comics that explored how he became more powerful, more deadly, and more importantly, more cunning. Darth Sideous was always intended to be blown out of proportions of what we see in the movies, to give the hint of evil but not reveal its fullness except in brief scenes. For some, that is scarier that just running around yelling "Unlimited powaaaa!" all the time.

Aurbere, Beni...don't rage at me for this, because this sentence may be quite blasphemous, but just read the whole thing.

Darth Sideous IS the Sith Emperor in a sense. Not in the sense that they are the same person, but in the sense that the Galactic Empire IS the Sith Empire. We needed a villain that we could recognize from the movies, a villain we all love or hate. We needed iconic villains. So, what Bioware did, was they took the most iconic pieces of the Galactic Empire, and gave them new skin. The Sith Emperor is so close in power to Darth Sideous, because his SINGLE PURPOSE, is to be the "Darth Sideous" of the time. Same with the Empires.

While both are very powerful, no one is disputing that, we have to remember who is CANNONICALLY the most powerful master to EVER wield the dark side is. *thank god Yoda never turned...that would be even deadlier in my opinion....* Darth Sideous used to be nothing but a face, but he has expanded to fit his role as that guy that you don't mess with. He has gained, and even created, powers that would annihilate entire armies of Sith, without any rituals. We are not biased to the PT jedi/sith so much as we know the capabilities of the majority of the jedi/sith from both the PT and the OR. In general the PT is much more impressive. Are there a few exceptions? Yes, there are ALWAYS exceptions. HOWEVER, this significantly lowers "foe quality" What is that you may ask if you don't debate often? It is how deadly are the enemies that they must constantly face? Now, Darth Sideous and Sith Emperor tend to be the "foes" so then, what is the "hero quality"?

Darth Sideous had to contend with the most powerful, canonically and showings wise, jedi in the entire universe. He won. Even after years of training Luke was defeated by him when he returned. Even after falling to the dark side, the son of the chosen one could not defeat him alone. It too two children of the chosen one *Vader ofc* to just barely, with help even then, to take Darth Sideous down. Even then, he WOULD HAVE RETURNED had ALL OF THE JEDI EVER TO HAVE LIVED not have dragged him into oblivion. Even that would have been impossible if his soul had not been forcefully bound to jedi willing to sacrifice his life for this goal. (it was Brand right?).

Now we have Darth Vitiate. He has faced jedi, he has faced sith, he has faced armies and drained planets, but is it enough? Sadly, we come back to point A that talks about how OR jedi/sith are weaker than PT due to showings and cannon statements. The key words we need to look for, is when he kills the "strongest sith" on his homeworld, while it is impressive, how strong was he? At this time there were many sure, but not everyone and their grandmother was sith. And he didn't even reinforce his force barriers and wasn't prepared for something underhanded, when he was to go inspect a potential sith, as a sith himself? The force sever itself is impressive, the defenses of the one it was used on, not so much. Then we have Revan and his gang. They are some of the exceptions to the PT > Rule, however, we have already gone into great detail saying how Sideous > Revan in...well, everything... As a master of the sith arts himself I am absolutely certain that Sideous could deflect or even absorb Darth Vitiates lightning as well as return the favor without missing a step. He isn't limited to that power either, remember "He created new powers on a whim (paraphrased)" Heck, if he was feeling espestually evil the day he went to go confront Darth Vitiate *and lets be honest, Sideous is a pretty evil guy lol* though we haven't seen it used before, he could use a Force Storm on the building *or planet* to just destroy it all that way. Down a planet or at least a large chunk of it, but enemy defeated.

Foe Quality. Advantage Darth Sideous.

Evil Upbringing. Advantage Darth Vitiate.

Abilities Mastered. Advantage Darth Sideous.

Lightsaber Styles Mastered. Advantage Darth Sideous.

Cunning. Draw.

Time to Research the Dark Side. Advantage Darth Vitiate.

Immortality. Draw.

Conquered the Galaxy. Advantage Darth Sideous.

Overall Weaknesses. Advantage Darth Vitiate.

Prone to Mistakes Due to Plot Armor. Advantage Darth Sideous.

Affinity for the Force. Unable to give advantage.

Feats Achieved. Unable to give advantage *Force Storm Vs. Sucking planet dry of the force*

Sinister Laugh. Advantage Sideous. So sinister, used even in combat!

Overall Advantage. Darth Sideous.

This is all my opinion, and I did not beat the dead horse on the topics already discussed great detail, so i merely gave some of those a brief mention.

So Vitiate, then.

I'm not so sure, otherwise why would he hide behind others in the first place?

I'm not so sure, otherwise why would he hide behind others in the first place?

So he can maintain his "Mary Sue" status? It's difficult, not many can manage it in the SW universe before an author can kill them. Just look at Chewie, Revan, Meetra...

So he can maintain his "Mary Sue" status? It's difficult, not many can manage it in the SW universe before an author can kill them. Just look at Chewie, Revan, Meetra...

Hey now it took a moon to kill Chewie, so I don't wanna see any complaints about that!

Hey now it took a moon to kill Chewie, so I don't wanna hear any complaints about that!

I FREAKIN LOVED CHEWIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *sobs*

Also, just finished reading Silenceo's post, well done good sir

Clearly we have a differing understanding of what "can't hold a candle to" means.

Can't hold a candle to = not [to be] equal to someone; unable to measure up to someone.

This is same as not in the league of someone.

And don't lecture us about how Sidious, Luke and Yoda are "MARY SUE" when you seem to be making every attempt to claim that Revan is the same league as them - which quite obviously implies you are overhyping him massively.

I have never stated that Revan is in the "league of untouchables" but my argument is that he is not a fly in comparison to Sidious, Luke and Yoda. Don't subscribe assertions to me that are not mine.

It's not like Beni, Aurbere, Wolf, Rayla, Sel, I, nor anyone else on this forum has ever countered your arguments numerous times before and in several threads with our own cannonical evidence.

I pay attention to every kind of evidence that comes up in discussions but I tend to put things in perspective.

ANALOGY:

Plagueis being able to nearly atomize some defenseless individuals with a Force Wave, is not an indication of Plagueis being able to send someone as powerful as Emperor Vitiate packing with the same power as originally suggested by Beni. Adequate explanation given in post # 857 in page 86 of this thread to address this assertion from Beni.

Honestly I really want to say the exact same thing back to you, but you're just plain exhausting. Your child-like name-calling and biased and refusal to admit others can have a different (but valid) opinion about a match up is quite ridiculous.

Excuse me! Whom I have name-called in this discussion? Also, I am not blindly refusing to accept arguments, I don't do this unless I have a reason to assert otherwise and I manage to find ample evidence to support my POV which gets overlooked more often.

ANALOGY:

A source asserts that Emperor Vitiate was "supremely" powerful in the ways of the Force as a mortal and became even more powerful after his first major transition, making it possible for him to do stuff that is seemingly beyond the capability of mortals which is canonically implied as well.

However, counter-response is that we know that he is powerful but he is still lame, this kind of reaction defeats the purpose of an otherwise meaningful debate and is likely to put me (or any individual) off because the time spent to bring-forth a meaningful argument in the discussion ended up wasted.

We understand how powerful Vitiate is. Beni won't let us freakin not . Honestly he's on your side (OR fanboy and proud to admit it me thinks) but he is rational and sees that there isn't yet enough evidence to place him above the cannonically established most powerful sith.

Doesn't changes the fact he underestimates Emperor Vitiate too much as I found out from his debates and ranking threads.

Also, my discussion is not about who is the most powerful Sith Lord. If an authority decides to explicitly override the position of Sidious as the most powerful Sith Lord, I am sure that Beni and all other Sidious fans would find ways to tag along with this new development and present arguments which would imply this to be the case. Now this would be the most amusing discussion to take place. Star Wars is a constantly expanding mythos and new ground realities take precedence over old ones as per LFL rules.

People tend to overlook weaknesses and shortcomings of Sidious, Luke and Yoda while discussing him. Sidious may summon powers of scale that can destroy entire fleets but still loose in a combative scenario, such is the fragility of stuff in the mythos.

Beni asserts that Sidious surpassed everybody else in every possible manner which is questionable assumption; Sidious may know how to shift his essence from one host to another but he may not be as much proficient and powerful in these matters as Emperor Vitiate is/was. Similarly, Sidious may know a thing or two about Midichlorian Manipulation but he may not be as proficient in this field as Plagueis is/was, and list goes on.

I try to keep an open mind in these matters and acknowledge superior showings from other characters vis-à-vis Sidious, Luke and Yoda. Of-course, I do believe in the fact that Sidious is talented enough to perform any kind of dark side task but him being able to achieve rank A in all of these tasks is the point open to debate.

Also, Fanboy: a male fan, esp. one who is obsessive about movies, comic books, or science fiction.

 

Technically we can...

I am no so much obsessed with Star Wars related stuff that my life depends upon it. Sometimes, I don't have a time to respond in a span of days and even months.

Fanboy is a label suitable for those fans who are not objective about stuff they like, rather blindingly crazy and illogical about it.

In all honesty, we aren't shutting you down, and stopping you from expressing your beliefs, if anything it is the opposite. We acknowledge that Vitiate is powerful and we've got quite a healthy dose of your beliefs, we just don't agree he's better than Sidious. Your evidence was insufficient compared to your opposition, and you lost the debate. It happens....

 

The fact you continue pushing your point till you get what you want isn't expressing your opinion its trying to get what you want and throwing a fit when you can't get it.

Another "we acknowledge that Vitiate is powerful" line.....I guess this is my turn to use the word "sigh" now or perhaps even a facepalm.

The act of shutting down is to not understand my assertions, disengage from my discussions by labeling me biased, fanboy, delusional and discourage others from having a meaningful discussion with me as well.

I mean, I don't get to see you guys saying to each other like I have a point or something. Never.

Also, my debate isn't about who is the most powerful Sith Lord, I prefer to stay away from this kind of debate because it is useless and lame discussion and some fans have firm beliefs of their own in this respect and authorities themselves are silent on this matter or refuse to give a reasonable answer to end this foolishness. My debate is about correct representation of all characters and I tend to notice that TOR era characters are typically underestimated, more-so then others.

We don't need to debate about merits of Yoda, Luke and Sidious because these individuals have proven credentials but we do need to debate about potential candidates who can give the "the league of untouchables" a run for their money or capable of defeating them in combative situations. I understand that the list of such individuals is small in the grand scheme of things but that list deserves recognition. Peace.

Ca

 

We don't need to debate about merits of Yoda, Luke and Sidious because these individuals have proven credentials but we do need to debate about potential candidates who can give the "the league of untouchables" a run for their money or capable of defeating them in combative situations. I understand that the list of such individuals is small in the grand scheme of things but that list deserves recognition. Peace.

I think what most people argue (or at least myself) is that while the likes of Luke Sidious and Yoda CAN be beaten by a very small number of OR characters it is not LIKELY for them to be beat by such characters. Some form of extenuating circumstance or goal related situation is what will make these people lose.

For example if Luke were to feel defeating the person at hand would lead him down the dark side because this person killed a family member then Luke will actually allow himself to be killed before allowing himself to fall. That is a character flaw, but in a no holds bar match where both have had the same amount of sleep, prep and nutrition in an arena where neither truly have the advantage Luke is the most likely to win. As things can be in either teams favor being able to win when at neutral means that the particular character can win a majority of the time, and in any debate the winner is always the one that would win the majority of the time, not neccisarily ALL the time.

Can't hold a candle to = not [to be] equal to someone; unable to measure up to someone.

 

This is same as not in the league of someone.

I have never stated that Revan is in the "league of untouchables" but my argument is that he is not a fly in comparison to Sidious, Luke and Yoda. Don't subscribe assertions to me that are not mine.

But I've already explained the fallacy behind that here among other things.

However, counter-response is that we know that he is powerful but he is still lame, this kind of reaction defeats the purpose of an otherwise meaningful debate and is likely to put me (or any individual) off because the time spent to bring-forth a meaningful argument in the discussion ended up wasted.

Doesn't changes the fact he underestimates Emperor Vitiate too much as I found out from his debates and ranking threads.

Also, my discussion is not about who is the most powerful Sith Lord. If an authority decides to explicitly override the position of Sidious as the most powerful Sith Lord, I am sure that Beni and all other Sidious fans would find ways to tag along with this new development and present arguments which would imply this to be the case. Now this would be the most amusing discussion to take place.

Beni asserts that Sidious surpassed everybody else in every possible manner which is questionable assumption; Sidious may know how to shift his essence from one host to another but he may not be as much proficient and powerful in these matters as Emperor Vitiate is/was. Similarly, Sidious may know a thing or two about Midichlorian Manipulation but he may not be as proficient in this field as Plagueis is/was, and list goes on.

And I have dedicated an entire thread to demonstrating this. Which you disregarded as nonsense if I recall. Obviously your attempts at being open-minded are failing quite dismally. I don't recall I time where you conceded that the Sith Emperor is inferior to anyone in anyone field, heck you even claimed him to be superior to Plagueis in the field of midi-chlorian manipulation. Despite the Sith Emperor never being associated with this field at all.

Again, really. The list indeed goes on. Far too long.

Also, my debate isn't about who is the most powerful Sith Lord, I prefer to stay away from this kind of debate because it is useless and lame discussion and some fans have firm beliefs of their own in this respect and authorities themselves are silent on this matter or refuse to give a reasonable answer to end this foolishness. My debate is about correct representation of all characters and I tend to notice that TOR era characters are typically underestimated, more-so then others.

Might want to re-familiarize yourself with that thread's content, its an essential read.

I think what most people argue (or at least myself) is that while the likes of Luke Sidious and Yoda CAN be beaten by a very small number of OR characters it is not LIKELY for them to be beat by such characters. Some form of extenuating circumstance or goal related situation is what will make these people lose.

This isn't a discussion about combat, it only turned into that when Legend starting hyping up Revan and slagging off Plagueis. It always has been an "argument" about Sidious being a superior Force Wielder to the Sith Emperor.

Among others.

And the discussion has so far entailed us presenting arguments and Legend attempting to discredit them - yet failing to provide any argument of his own. As such the debate has gotten nowhere, and Legend still lacks a point.

I think what most people argue (or at least myself) is that while the likes of Luke Sidious and Yoda CAN be beaten by a very small number of OR characters it is not LIKELY for them to be beat by such characters. Some form of extenuating circumstance or goal related situation is what will make these people lose.

 

For example if Luke were to feel defeating the person at hand would lead him down the dark side because this person killed a family member then Luke will actually allow himself to be killed before allowing himself to fall. That is a character flaw, but in a no holds bar match where both have had the same amount of sleep, prep and nutrition in an arena where neither truly have the advantage Luke is the most likely to win. As things can be in either teams favor being able to win when at neutral means that the particular character can win a majority of the time, and in any debate the winner is always the one that would win the majority of the time, not neccisarily ALL the time.

Not sure if dying for ones convictions and moral standard would be considered a character flaw.

Not sure if dying for ones convictions and moral standard would be considered a character flaw.

I understand what you mean, but for "combat reasons" it would be a possible exploitable "weakness".

The ability to transfer his essence to new bodies after his death? Yes he was.

but, he was taken down by a dying jedi, while he was trying to tranfer his essence into vader's grandchild.

Being immortal means you can not die of old age, if someone chops your head off you'll still be just as ****ed as anyone else.

 

In short, Immortal is not Invincible.

Unless your lord draaug.