As of 2.8, Deception will be so far behind Madness that there virtually won't be any reason to play that spec in Operations anymore.

 

Deception/Infiltration Assassins/Shadows already do quite well in PvP, even with their uncompetitive sustained damage output. Their skill tree provides them with very effective burst damage, and at this time we have no plans to boost their sustained damage for fear of creating unstoppable killing machines in PvP. In the more distant future, we might diminish some of Deception’s/Infiltration’s burst damage output in exchange for more sustained damage output, but we cannot currently provide a timeframe for any potential changes.

 

Making Duplicity give an auto-crit to Maul on non-player targets would have three consequences:

 

. Fixes sustained damage output for PvE

. Makes the DPS much more reliable for PvE

. Doesn't change anything for PvP nor the playstyle/rotatin/priority for PvE

 

A fourth consequence would be allowing us to still play the spec in high level content.

 

 

To illustrate how this change would NOT be over powered, I took the best Infiltration (Deception) parse I could find.

 

If Knightrider's Shadow Strike (Maul) were to be 100% crit, the DPS in this parse would be around 3.95K.

 

This is obviously a lot, however, this parse had exceptionally high crit chances on Spinning Strike (Assassinate), Force Breach (Discharge) and Project (Shock). Even more amazing is the crit chance on Shadow Strike (Maul), which makes the change I'm suggesting on Duplicity not as radical as it seems.

 

Basically, the PvE only auto-crit buffs sustained DPS and DPS reliability, but the burst aspect of the spec, relying on crit chances will still exist. Only, it will have a narrower range between the worst and the best DPS output possible, while effectively bringing both up to be competitive in PvE.

 

With this changes and compared to Madness, Deception will always be fairly below in terms of sustained DPS, as it should be. And more importantly, PvP would be literally untouched.

 

 

EDIT:

 

As someone pointed out, this does carry the risk to make a PvE hybrid spec OP. The solution would be to tie the auto-crit talent to Voltage: each stack granting 50% crit chance on the next Maul with Duplicity.

 

Thanks to ShawnyBoi and Aelanis for their feedback on this.

Edited May 21, 2014 by SalvorHardin

I really don't know why the devs are not doing more "player targets are unaffected by this" kind of thing. It opens up an entirely new range of options for balance. You don't have to go overboard. Just small things like this. One or two talents.

This is yet another interesting idea, but sadly developers claim that Deception/Infiltration is too risky to balance w/o effecting their burst in PvP. I don't think they're looking at any good ideas right now because they've already marked it off and shoved to the shelf. They're making players either 1.) Chose Madness, 2.) Play another class. I'm choosing, #2 - my Sentinel is in so much better of a spot where each tree is useful. Ironic, I think., because each tree is DPS and each is very useful based on situation of fights; three balanced and effective DPS trees. Shadow/Assassin only have two and one is not competitive for raiding. Deception/Infiltration doesn't have a good future, because the developers have stated they will lessen the effectiveness/competitiveness of PvP Deception/Infiltration in order to make it's PvE more competitive. I still want whoever handles the Sentinel/Marauder class to help the Shadow/Assassin class.

 

Also - this should be posted in the main idea thread , if you haven't already.

Edited May 20, 2014 by undiess

As of 2.8, Deception will be so far behind Madness that there virtually won't be any reason to play that spec in Operations anymore.

 

To quote myself from the PTS forum version you posted: They said they would give One raid competitive spec to all classes before they did anything else. They're going one step at a time, be happy for the buffs already given until 3.0 lands, then we can hope they fix all of everybody's specs.

 

 

And to drummerinthesun, I posted an idea in the PT forums revolving around the same principle and most people thought the "NPC only" was a lazy fix, which I don't get. As long as it gets fixed why do we care if it's the lazy way?

And to drummerinthesun, I posted an idea in the PT forums revolving around the same principle and most people thought the "NPC only" was a lazy fix, which I don't get. As long as it gets fixed why do we care if it's the lazy way?

 

People can be very silly - it's a good way to go because it does not effect PvP and ensures viability in two different areas of the game, without effecting each area negatively.

Holy batman! PVE autocrit?

You're not the first to suggest this. And it's a good idea but that alone is not enough to get Deception where it needs to be.

And it's a good idea but that alone is not enough to get Deception where it needs to be.

 

True, but I wanted to show how a very simple feature could change a LOT for this spec without going into the "danger territory" of PvP balance.

 

The original idea was the addition of:

 

. Breaching Shadow / Static Charge to PROC 100% from melee attacks only with an extended 6s iCD (instead of 4.5)

. Infiltration Tactics / Duplicity to PROC 100% with and extended 12s iCD (instead of 9)

 

But both these suggestions DO change PvP slightly: reducing marginally maximum burst potential but making the burst somehow more reliable. In my opinion, those pretty much cancel each other out and don't affect PvP one bit...

 

The point of this thread was to suggest ONE simple change that literally doesn't touch PvP and gives the PvE boost Infiltration / Deception is in dire need of, even if only partially.

Edited May 20, 2014 by SalvorHardin

The original idea was the addition of:

 

. Breaching Shadow / Static Charge to PROC 100% from melee attacks only with an extended 6s iCD (instead of 4.5)

. Infiltration Tactics / Duplicity to PROC 100% with and extended 12s iCD (instead of 9)

 

But both these suggestions DO change PvP slightly: reducing marginally maximum burst potential but making the burst somehow more reliable. In my opinion, those pretty much cancel each other out and don't affect PvP one bit...

 

Well those 2 changes wouldn't really be of any significance in PvP though.

You're not the first to suggest this. And it's a good idea but that alone is not enough to get Deception where it needs to be.

 

Actually, for as far back as I can remember, he was the first to suggest it, a couple months back.

Just add a 50% crit rate for Maul/Shadow strike with duplicity/infiltration tactics. The only change it has for PvP is a more reliable burst, instead of maul being a crit around a 1/3 chance it will ba a 3/4 chance.

Just add a 50% crit rate for Maul/Shadow strike with duplicity/infiltration tactics. The only change it has for PvP is a more reliable burst, instead of maul being a crit around a 1/3 chance it will ba a 3/4 chance.

 

If our biggest hitting attack became a very reliable crit, we'd be the monsters everyone believes we are in PVP. Keep the change out of PVP, and let it affect only PVE. Also, it wouldn't be a 1/3 to 3/4 boost, it would be a ~34% to ~84% chance, or around 5/6. Leave the auto-crit to PVE.

IMO front loaded burst should be reliable. It wouldn't change the potential damage just the rate at which it can happen. We're also only taking about 1 move on a proc

 

With the current less then 1/3, as no one runs as high as 34% crit, a high crit opener means everyone thinks assassins/shadows are OP because "OMG i didn't use any CD's but it's not a L2P issue because he killed me in 10 secs". Unfortunately that's the thought behind the players that label a class as OP.

 

Make it a "pop CD's or die" if an assassin/shadow are bursting common and you change the scenerio to one where people are expecting to be hit really hard rather then just chance to be hit really hard.

 

With it tied to duplicity/Infil tactics it also makes Low Slash and spike/spinning kick ability to proc beneficial.

Actually, for as far back as I can remember, he was the first to suggest it, a couple months back.

 

Yeah I've been talking about this for about 2 months now. Thanks for remembering

guys..we don't get ayn buff until 3.0 (maybe if we are luycky 2.9) take it easy

guys..we don't get ayn buff until 3.0 (maybe if we are luycky 2.9) take it easy

 

Hey Gang,

 

First of all, I want to drop in a quick apology for not having commented in here sooner. We've been paying attention here, but it's been pretty busy in the office the last couple weeks and I just wasn't making the time to respond to all the good forum posts.

 

Secondly: I think this is all really solid info/feedback/suggestions, and I love the effort put into it. I think it is likely that Infiltration/Deception will be one of the classes we touch in 2.9, and this thread is going to be such an excellent resource for ideas in places to start. Threads and player effort like these can really make my team's life so much easier, and I'm all for that!

 

I'm excited.

I'm excited.

Score.

Only Maul is not enough to make Deception on par with all the other specs..

 

I think at 3 stacks, Discharge should be auto crit, could reduce the damage a little bit.

This would put Deception as a very good spec for burst with a decent sustain, not a better sustain than the new madness.

Having Maul + Discharge(3 stacks) auto crit would be amazing to test this and see how it goes.

We can ask to the devs to at least test this and show some parses, then they can work on it.

 

REMEMBER: ONLY IN PVE.

Edited May 25, 2014 by NogueiraA

Only Maul is not enough to make Deception on par with all the other specs..

 

I think at 3 stacks, Discharge should be auto crit, could reduce the damage a little bit.

This would put Deception as a very good spec for burst with a decent sustain, not a better sustain than the new madness.

Having Maul + Discharge(3 stacks) auto crit would be amazing to test this and see how it goes.

We can ask to the devs to at least test this and show some parses, then they can work on it.

 

REMEMBER: ONLY IN PVE.

 

Only in PvE and what about PvP auto-crit maul and dicharge will be too OP, mb too OP is less what i can say. All sins will gear up to power-surge, 13K+ mauls and 9K+ discharge autocrits...Too much. I think too much about maul auto-crit. RNG needed in this spec cause deception have exceptional burst and single-target controls. I think as PvP-r. But for PvE u will have good DPS spec - madness is that so bad?

And how devs will do that maul will have auto-crit? PvE-gear set bonus? PvP-rs can farm this gear and PvP, cause bolster.

Edited May 25, 2014 by helpmewin

there virtually won't be any reason to play that spec in Operations anymore.

 

there was any?

there was any?

 

Tyrans

1. Pizza'dah'hutt - Pyrotech Mercenary - Suckafish - 3714.08

2. Daharel - Assault Commando - Aisthesis - 3647.53

3. Meno-agent - Concealment Operative - Blitskrieg - 3643.04

4. Meno-Flash - Dirty Fighting Scoundrel - Epic Gaming - 3613.64

5. Dristran - Concealment Operative - Seven Stuck - 3566.00

6. Lunagazer - Dirty Fighting Gunslinger - The Olde Guard - 3541.56

7. Antonica - Vigilance Guardian - Aisthesis - 3528.24

8. Mheeran - Dirty Fighting Gunslinger - Manticore - 3502.37

9. Peebles - Dirty Fighting Gunslinger - Imperium - 3488.46

10. Noobi-wan - Vigilance Guardian - It's Pugable - 3507.04

11. Evolixe - Infiltration Shadow - 3461.17

 

Yeah, there was a reason.

Only in PvE and what about PvP auto-crit maul and dicharge will be too OP, mb too OP is less what i can say. All sins will gear up to power-surge, 13K+ mauls and 9K+ discharge autocrits...Too much. I think too much about maul auto-crit. RNG needed in this spec cause deception have exceptional burst and single-target controls. I think as PvP-r. But for PvE u will have good DPS spec - madness is that so bad?

And how devs will do that maul will have auto-crit? PvE-gear set bonus? PvP-rs can farm this gear and PvP, cause bolster.

 

Why are you talking about PVP?

As I said: ONLY IN PVE.

 

How they can do this? The same as they did with Smash.

Edited May 25, 2014 by NogueiraA

Only in PvE and what about PvP auto-crit maul and dicharge will be too OP, mb too OP is less what i can say. All sins will gear up to power-surge, 13K+ mauls and 9K+ discharge autocrits...Too much. I think too much about maul auto-crit. RNG needed in this spec cause deception have exceptional burst and single-target controls. I think as PvP-r. But for PvE u will have good DPS spec - madness is that so bad?

And how devs will do that maul will have auto-crit? PvE-gear set bonus? PvP-rs can farm this gear and PvP, cause bolster.

 

It's actually really, really easy to make things only apply to NPCs as opposed to PCs. See: every Taunt, Shockwave, Guard, etc. Also, 0 people suggested allowing this to work out in PVP.

 

As for auto-crit Discharge, it's a really, really big boost. Both that and Maul auto-critting would put us leaps and bounds ahead of other classes. As much as I love Deception, we should not be able to put up the same numbers as, say, Madness, because we don't require any buildup time. We're a burst spec, and as such, even according to the developers, we should not be able to sustain as much damage. ~200 dps behind is fine (it's less than 500 dps behind the average PTS Madness parses), as we can still apply some of the most on demand, impressive burst in the game.

I also suggested a PVE only auto-crit on maul a ways back. People opposed it back then saying but what about PVP... I don't know why people bring PVP into it, if deception is performing well in PVP. Just fix the PVE side with a mechanic like they did with smash. Sometimes the simplest solution is the best one. I have looked at the "deception fix" thread that the devs responded too, and would be OK with those changes as well, but those would have some effect on PVP as well.

It's actually really, really easy to make things only apply to NPCs as opposed to PCs. See: every Taunt, Shockwave, Guard, etc. Also, 0 people suggested allowing this to work out in PVP.

 

As for auto-crit Discharge, it's a really, really big boost. Both that and Maul auto-critting would put us leaps and bounds ahead of other classes. As much as I love Deception, we should not be able to put up the same numbers as, say, Madness, because we don't require any buildup time. We're a burst spec, and as such, even according to the developers, we should not be able to sustain as much damage. ~200 dps behind is fine (it's less than 500 dps behind the average PTS Madness parses), as we can still apply some of the most on demand, impressive burst in the game.

 

lol tell that to mara in carnage spec. i made a video montage on youtube of how insane their crits are (20k crit on a boss once pve) and it happens all the time. so for assassin critting like that all the time i don't see it far fech. also lighting sorcs can still pull out 3.9-4k dps and that is a burst spec.