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Gear: Pvp Vs Pve


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I asked about this on the PvP forums and didn't get an adequate answer.

 

Are you claiming this because you know for sure? Or you just think so?

 

I've been thinking about getting into PvP. When I swap my PvE gear for recruit I lose 35% of my health and 25% of my dps. My instinct is to keep my PvE gear and grind Battlemaster and don't even bother with Recruit. I've had 3 people disagree with me, but nobody has given any concrete explanation.

 

Can you?

 

Experimented with this myself. I'm almost full augmented black hole for pve and complete augmented war hero for pvp. I put on all my black hole gear (21k hp, 2200 willpower) and entered a warzone. I thought I got melted fast with my war hero gear! It was so much worse with black hole. I know this isn't a campaign vs recruit comparison but it still goes to show how fast you can melt in PVP even with high end gear on. Go with the recruit gear. At least then your healers will take the time to try to keep you alive. When I see a zero expertise, 25k anything in my warzones I don't bother wasting my force to heal them.

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Ok first i would just like to say i am very tired of hearing the same old same old, Pvp gear is fine in pve, but pve is not ok in pvp. ok i get it, expertise is king in pvp. but at the same time im geting tired of the same people then bringing pvp gear to a ops. they should make it so that pvp gear is only good in pvp. otherwise why shouldn't pve be ok for pvp? sure its a quick easy set to get. but its not the point. the gear is made for one thing or the other, it shouldnt then be accepctable to work in the other, unless its both capable. ./end rant. and fyi i am not pvping in pve gear nor pveing in pvp gear. just wish the devs would fix it.

 

My pvp gear on my healer is augged and optimized battlemaster (with a WH relic, implant and earpiece; also, all enhancements are war hero grade, borrowed from a different toon), in tionese shells for the set bonus, plus belts and bracers with 25 armoring and pvp mods (which are identical to 25 grade pve mods, apart from that there's bonus expertise). I also have a set of stock rakata (with columi implants and earpiece). The augged, optimized PvP set provides better healing output in pve than the rakata set with it's garbage default optimization. So, even though I use the rakata set for non-guild run ops, that's only because people like you would complain. The pvp set is better for pve in my case than pve gear.

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BM or WH PvP gear can be used for *MOST* pve endgame content. Just not all. I Tanked in BM gear for most of my hard modes and skipped over the tionese set until I started adding in/subbing a few Columi/Campaign pieces. But even before I started getting enough comms/crystals for Columi gear I was augmenting my WH and BM gear to make it PVE worthy. What I couldn't get on my own I made, like the Artifice Relics you can make.

 

If you don't PVP then the Tionese gear is ok to wear, otherwise BM gear is waayyyy better. However, why would you go into a WZ wearing full Campaign or full Rakata gear? That gear does not have the one stat needed to be viable in pvp which is expertise. Without expertise, you're dying moments from leaving your safe areas. Even if you have 900 Expertise chances are you can go down quickly.

 

Then you look at the fact that the end content PVE gear gives you stats that are almost useless to you in most pve situations anyway. I would say though that if you can get the PVE gear, then you should be going for it due to the set bonuses it gives you.

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im bh /rakata boutyhunter healer for pve i would take any one in tionesie/.columi over any one with wh gear im tired of all the *****s moawning pvp is good for pve pve is no good for pvp my bh gear gives me over 7k more hp dmg and armore way beter then recrute gear as for pve if i do randoms ops or fp and have bloke in bm gear i would not heal him **** off get pve gear then come with us one simple reson pve guy will have much more expirance in end game content

 

plus i would love to see full grup of guys in battlemaster gear runing nightmere kp under 2 h

Edited by Brutal
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im bh /rakata boutyhunter healer for pve i would take any one in tionesie/.columi over any one with wh gear im tired of all the *****s moawning pvp is good for pve pve is no good for pvp my bh gear gives me over 7k more hp dmg and armore way beter then recrute gear as for pve if i do randoms ops or fp and have bloke in bm gear i would not heal him **** off get pve gear then come with us one simple reson pve guy will have much more expirance in end game content

 

plus i would love to see full grup of guys in battlemaster gear runing nightmere kp under 2 h

 

I don't believe anyone is delusional enough to think they could run NM KP at ALL in BM or WH gear. If you are in pvp gear still, you probably should only be running T1 HM's. Maybe some of the easier T2 HMs but Kaon Under Siege, you should be at least partly in Columi gear if not full Columi.

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I don't believe anyone is delusional enough to think they could run NM KP at ALL in BM or WH gear. If you are in pvp gear still, you probably should only be running T1 HM's. Maybe some of the easier T2 HMs but Kaon Under Siege, you should be at least partly in Columi gear if not full Columi.

 

Do it regularly with guildies.

 

You are severely over exaggerating the difficulty of end game PVE.

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Do it regularly with guildies.

 

You are severely over exaggerating the difficulty of end game PVE.

 

Most of it is not difficult at all especially if you are running with people you run it with on a regular basis. But if you are running it with PUGs where everyone tends to think only of themselves, then it's going to be a problem.

 

In a guild, most people know each other's weaknesses so you can pick up the slack for those with less optimal gear or experience but in PUGs that isn't the case. Plus in PUG's people tend to be less respectful.

 

Few weeks ago I ran D7 with a PUG. Me tanking in almost full Columi gear with a few rakata/WH/BH pieces and our healer in mostly BM gear with some Orange modded gear and a DPS in greens and Orange while the other who was a guildie was in WH/Columi. We wiped at least 3 times on the 3 shielded droids and couldn't beat the enrage timer on the big droid afterwards even though everyone was hitting the panels at the right times. Needless to say gear mattered and is what likely caused us to fail.

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Most of it is not difficult at all especially if you are running with people you run it with on a regular basis. But if you are running it with PUGs where everyone tends to think only of themselves, then it's going to be a problem.

 

In a guild, most people know each other's weaknesses so you can pick up the slack for those with less optimal gear or experience but in PUGs that isn't the case. Plus in PUG's people tend to be less respectful.

 

Few weeks ago I ran D7 with a PUG. Me tanking in almost full Columi gear with a few rakata/WH/BH pieces and our healer in mostly BM gear with some Orange modded gear and a DPS in greens and Orange while the other who was a guildie was in WH/Columi. We wiped at least 3 times on the 3 shielded droids and couldn't beat the enrage timer on the big droid afterwards even though everyone was hitting the panels at the right times. Needless to say gear mattered and is what likely caused us to fail.

 

MediumTurquoise is not the problem.

 

Red is.

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Do it regularly with guildies.

 

You are severely over exaggerating the difficulty of end game PVE.

 

can i see the vid showing all of u in bm from start to finish (not ougmented naturly and under 2h) ?

Edited by Brutal
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I don't believe anyone is delusional enough to think they could run NM KP at ALL in BM or WH gear. If you are in pvp gear still, you probably should only be running T1 HM's. Maybe some of the easier T2 HMs but Kaon Under Siege, you should be at least partly in Columi gear if not full Columi.

 

finly some one with a brain all tho kion is easy li would probebly strugle u can carry 1 person but 2-3 will hit enrage time ( i run it normly with guild m8 in under 30 min )

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can i see the vid showing all of u in bm from start to finish (not ougmented naturly and under 2h) ?

 

Can I see the post in this thread where the OP said anything about everyone being in BM?

 

Did a HM EV with 4 people in full recruit (Both tanks, 1 healer and 1 dps) and regularly do NiM KP/EV with anywhere between 1-4 people in War Hero gear. Our Mara in WH gear still managed to finish first on the council, and didn't even realize till the end of the Op (when he went to slot in his shiny new Might armoring) that he was in his PvP gear.

 

As for Kaon, that is laughable. It is amazing how people don't understand things like "dont stand near the fat ones when they are glowing green", or "interrupt the ones doing the constrict".

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im bh /rakata boutyhunter healer for pve i would take any one in tionesie/.columi over any one with wh gear im tired of all the *****s moawning pvp is good for pve pve is no good for pvp my bh gear gives me over 7k more hp dmg and armore way beter then recrute gear as for pve if i do randoms ops or fp and have bloke in bm gear i would not heal him **** off get pve gear then come with us one simple reson pve guy will have much more expirance in end game content

 

plus i would love to see full grup of guys in battlemaster gear runing nightmere kp under 2 h

 

You'd really take somebody in tionese and columi over war hero?

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yea simple reson the war hero guy should **** off and get pve set u can get full rakata much faster then wh

 

Tionese is extremely bad for HM Ops, Story EC and HM LI. Heck, I'd think twice before having a Tionese geared person help out with Nightmare Pilgrim.

 

Trust me, freaking BattleMaster is better than Tionese. Now Columi gear is sufficient for anything except HM EC or NiM KP.

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yea simple reson the war hero guy should **** off and get pve set u can get full rakata much faster then wh

For some classes WH gear is better than Rakata by primary/secondary stats (we're discarding Expertise). And combat mechanics does not care whether you're in "PvP" or "PvE" gear, it only cares about the stats.

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Speaking as someone who wanders around in full BM gear, I do just fine on SM FP's (except LI, which I know I'm not geared for, and thus don't queue for). I do relatively well in SM KP and EV with my guildies, or in a queue group that can actually work as a team. Hell, I've even seen a person or two (literally, one or two - most others fail spectacularly) do well in WZ's in decent PVE gear, even with almost constant gear snobbing (no wonder we lost. How do you fight and type at the same time?). From my experience, PVP in PVE gear is much more difficult than PVE in PVP gear.

 

My point is this: while the importance of gear cannot be denied, it can be overstated. Meanwhile, the importance of an individual's skill is often overlooked (e.g. someone who kicks *** in a WZ with little or no expertise is clearly good at it; anyone without at least some skill would get ground into the *********** pavement). That's not to say that skill is everything, just that there's a balance. I understand that an idiot in Rakata is still an idiot, and a highly-skilled player running HM EC in recruit is probably gonna get their *** kicked (assuming a group would even accept such a player). Nobody gets the gear and skill by magic, we all get it by playing the content.

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PvP in PvE gear is horrible, since Expertise overwrites everything. Full Black Hole player will probably be able to compete with full Recruit, but that's about as far as it gets.

 

I once forgot to switch gear for PvP and ended up in full Rakata + WH ear/implants (giving a total of ~300 expertise). Replacement gear was in cargo bay. The enemy team was quite bad, but I still felt like shooting from a water gun. In the end I did manage to scrap some mediocre total damage, but only because of that 300 expertise remaining.

 

So the thing is that PvP gear for PvE play is about 1 to 1.5 tiers down on corresponding PvE gear, while vice versa it's all 3 tiers down.

Edited by Lightning_
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I suspect that the intent is just different in PVE vs PVP.

 

In PVP you are, in fact competing against other players. The entry Recruit gear is there so new PVPers are not completely blown away, but still at a substantial disadvantage. Gear progression is, in fact a major goal of the PVPer. It makes the player better.

 

In PVE the goal is to accomplish the objective. Having a team member gimped totally out for a period hurts everyone and is good for NO ONE trying to accomplish the mission. It makes no sense to have a stat like "expertise" in a PVE situation. I mean, who wants to see someone going out with them on an Op completely unable to stay alive?

 

In contrast, in PVP your goal is man versus man. (there are objectives in WZ's so there is a team aspect)

 

Just a thought.

Edited by Manwolfe
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Honestly for me as a watchman senty who does a fair bit of BOTH pve and pvp, full optimised wh can do all the pve content in the game as a dps if you know your class, you do lose 150-200 or so dps on the dummy over near full optimised bh/campaign though so if you have both obviously use the bh-campaign... but when i accidently parsed on the dummy in my pvp gear i just thought i was being sloppy in my rotation cause it was late at night.. and the numbers werent so low that you'd think wearing it would cause enrages or anything. (and yes i know this will differ for other classes, tanks etc)

 

PVE gear in pvp is just a no go as expertise is too important in the current climate

 

I'm not saying "go out and do pve in pvp gear" but people that go crazy over people doing faceroll hm fps in bm gear need to get a grip it is more then enough.. heck i and many others did those in champion gear back in the day with no issues O.o

Edited by AngusFTW
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The PvP gear needs to be further differentiated from PvE usefulness. Expertise in PvP already has the effect of power in PvE. (among other things)

 

1st, remove all power from PvP gear and increase Expertise by the amount removed.

2nd, make another PvP stat that would incorporate crit and surge, then remove those stats from PvP gear. (Call it something like Devastation.)

3rd, watch as PvP gear is no longer useful in PvE.

4th, provide a simple and convenient way to swap between gear sets without having to store all the items in our bags.

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There is one point that is overlooked in this whole discussion that makes PvP different from PvE....That is the second P...the players...Mobs in a PvE raid do not look Darth Iamalukkesfader and say that idiot is PvP gear, lets target him. However, people who PvP do. Moderately skilled to advanced PvPers look for people who are in the wrong gear or weaker gear and cut them first...kind of like letting the tank deal with the boss for a minute while you clean up some adds...If you are DPS, this is an easy way to get your total kill, total damage, and solo kill medals in a hurry.
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PvP in PvE gear is horrible, since Expertise overwrites everything. Full Black Hole player will probably be able to compete with full Recruit, but that's about as far as it gets.

 

One of my guildies has a bit of an epeen issue when I tell him that I can run dailies faster and more efficiently in my 31/0/10 Shadow tank spec than he can in his 23/1/17 hybrid spec. His "solution" was to challenge me to a duel, which I simply had to facepalm at, not only because PvP and PvE are completely different skillsets but also because his full augmented War Hero gear provides a massive benefit that most PvPers are completely oblivious thanks to it's omnipresence in PvP. His claim was that his 23% bonus damage and DR from Expertise would be overwritten by the fact that he had 18k hp and I had 23k. I had to show him the math that his Expertise completely reversed the functional hp values (dealing .77 damage to someone with 18k hp is like hitting someone for full damage with 23k hp and getting hit for 1.23 damage is like having your hp reduced from 23k to 18k).

 

Expertise cancels out Expertise and most PvPers fight other players in similar levels of Expertise so most PvPers don't realize exactly how massively powerful Expertise is (reducing damage taken *and* increasing damage dealt). Unless there is a massive skill and gear difference (re: a player in full Recruit gear taking on a more skilled player in full Campaign), the PvP geared character is going to deliver a sound thrashing to the PvE geared character purely due to the advantages of Expertise. Of course, in a PvE situation, the fact that Expertise directly draws itemization from every other stat (Expertise is not simply "bonus" itemization added to PvP gear; PvP gear has lower primary stats, Endurance, and secondary stats compared to similarly geared PvE gear; if you don't believe me, have you ever compared the hp/mitigation/damage stats on a full PvP char v. a full PvE char?) is going to mean that, unless you have a similar situation concerning skill and gear, the PvE character is going to be *way* more useful in PvE situations.

 

In general, the best comparison I've seen concerning PvP and PvE gear is that, in general, PvE gear is worthless in PvP and, in PvE, PvP gear is equal to PvE gear of, roughly, 10 lower rating (so WH is roughly commensurate with Columi) with the exception of weapons and DPS/healing offhands (since most of the value for a weapon or DPS/healing offhand is derived from weapon damage and Force/Tech power which happens to be derived from rating). PvP weapons and DPS/healing offhands are worth only a few rating less than PvE gear with the same rating (PvP Shields are worth less because PvE tanks are more dependent upon the secondary stats that are reduced by Expertise). As such, if you're packing top tier PvP gear, you're prepped to do pretty much everything except for stuff that requires full Rakata (HM EC and NiM KP/EV).

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...

 

In general, the best comparison I've seen concerning PvP and PvE gear is that, in general, PvE gear is worthless in PvP and, in PvE, PvP gear is equal to PvE gear of, roughly, 10 lower rating (so WH is roughly commensurate with Columi) with the exception of weapons and DPS/healing offhands (since most of the value for a weapon or DPS/healing offhand is derived from weapon damage and Force/Tech power which happens to be derived from rating).

 

...

I agree with the 10 lower rating. My guild has brought some of our PvP players into Ops who were interested, and the WH players have done well in HM EV and HM KP, even if it was their first op ever. And since those ops are tuned for Columi gear and drop Rakata, I would say that WH is as good as a Columi set.

 

Saying that PvE gear is worthless in PvP is not exactly true, however. Columi maybe, but if you have an optimized/augmented Rakata/BH mix (and no Battlemaster available), your PvE set will be better than Recruit gear.

 

I found this out the hard way when I went from endgame PvE to PvP and was being facerolled wearing Recruit but was able to hold my own wearing the PvE gear I run HMEC with. It was only when I started getting Battlemaster gear that I noticed an improvement over my PvE stuff.

Edited by Khevar
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Saying that PvE gear is worthless in PvP is not exactly true, however. Columi maybe, but if you have an optimized/augmented Rakata/BH mix (and no Battlemaster available), your PvE set will be better than Recruit gear.

 

I'd actually be kind of curious to compare the math on this. Would the additional expertise in the Recruit gear offset the lower hp and damage compared to full Rakata? Honestly, I would think that, thanks to the massive benefits of Expertise (since it adds to both your offensive and defensive capabilities), it would overcome even Rakata gear difference (it's only a difference of 12-16 gear rating), but I'd be curious to see the math concerning it.

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