And....we've managed to get off track. The issue isn't the toxicity of the PVP community, nor the prevalence of pre-mades.

 

The issue is that once again management has made a dumb decision. By removing the reward for losses from unranked, they've discouraged the causal. Which is, as we're already seeing, creating a spiral that's only going to get uglier as time goes on.

Agreed.

Just to put in my two cents:

PvP is absolutely one of my favorite game modes. However, due to either premades or poor matchmaking or possibly something else, the reality of the current situation is that a fair number of matches are simply not fun. Matches where the teams are reasonably even are a lot of fun, regardless of the outcome. But one team curbstomping the other never is (although slightly more fun for the curbstompers). The small incentive of at least inching towards a daily or weekly helps mitigate that, but I do believe an equally big issue is that matches are very uneven too often (getting only even matches is highly improbable, so note the realistic wording here).

If reverting the changes are out of the question, I'd suggest at least trying what Trixxie proposed (1p loss, 3p win) AND somehow improving matchmaking (which we have no idea how works, but there's gotta be a better way than how it works now).

I tried pvp the other day at 75, quite literally the most toxic and irredeemably unpleasant experience I've had in this game. Incredibly small, elitist community, nothing of value will be lost tbh.

Typical bad mentality... "I tried this once, the content wasn't a faceroll across the keyboard, so I didn't enjoy myself as I like to basically be a passive observer in the cinematics Bioware feeds me... My opinion is supreme on this issue, and is the only one that matters..."

Whether or not you know it, that post you made is EXACTLY the reason you lack the skills to ever get any better at PvP and you'll always blame everyone else...

Typical bad mentality... "I tried this once, the content wasn't a faceroll across the keyboard, so I didn't enjoy myself as I like to basically be a passive observer in the cinematics Bioware feeds me... My opinion is supreme on this issue, and is the only one that matters..."

 

Whether or not you know it, that post you made is EXACTLY the reason you lack the skills to ever get any better at PvP and you'll always blame everyone else...

What if the key was not to get better but to have fun with PvP?

I mean, sure, over time you will get better but the point is, I think, that the process of getting better isn't enjoyable because of the toxicity of too large a part of the pvp community.

What if the key was not to get better but to have fun with PvP?

 

I mean, sure, over time you will get better but the point is, I think, that the process of getting better isn't enjoyable because of the toxicity of too large a part of the pvp community.

If you know your class inside and out, know all of your abilities, will off-heal/taunt when able, will play objectives where applicable, will communicate with your teammates, then it is almost impossible to not be useful to a team in a Warzone and not have a good time...

If you only know 3 of your abilities, don't talk to anyone, don't play objectives, don't have a team first mentality, keyboard turn, and generally mouth breath then yeah, you're not going to be useful to anyone at all and you're not going to have a good time...

Now let's compound that with a stubborn attitude of "It can't be me that has any flaws, it's everyone else..." and then refuse to try to get better after 1 day...

Which of those two scenarios do you think played out here???

If you know your class inside and out, know all of your abilities, will off-heal/taunt when able, will play objectives where applicable, will communicate with your teammates, then it is almost impossible to not be useful to a team in a Warzone and not have a good time...

 

If you only know 3 of your abilities, don't talk to anyone, don't play objectives, don't have a team first mentality, keyboard turn, and generally mouth breath then yeah, you're not going to be useful to anyone at all and you're not going to have a good time...

 

Now let's compound that with a stubborn attitude of "It can't be me that has any flaws, it's everyone else..." and then refuse to try to get better after 1 day...

 

Which of those two scenarios do you think played out here???

Lol. this is a lot to ask of someone trying PvP for the first time.

Yes you can learn your class while leveling in PvE, however most classes have abilities you won't typically use in any PvE situation. Actually doing PvP, and researching those abilities that are never (or situational at best in PvE) will take practice in PvP. If the process of playing the matches isn't fun for a player for whatever reason, they won't step foot in it again, which will continue to make PvP's community continue to shrink over time.

I for one used to do plenty of PvP over the years, even tho I never found it very enjoyable personally. I did it for a change of pace from the rest of the game, but many people won't even do that if they dislike an activity. These days I get my PvP fix from doing GSF instead.

Lol. this is a lot to ask of someone trying PvP for the first time.

 

Yes you can learn your class while leveling in PvE, however most classes have abilities you won't typically use in any PvE situation. Actually doing PvP, and researching those abilities that are never (or situational at best in PvE) will take practice in PvP. If the process of playing the matches isn't fun for a player for whatever reason, they won't step foot in it again, which will continue to make PvP's community continue to shrink over time.

 

I for one used to do plenty of PvP over the years, even tho I never found it very enjoyable personally. I did it for a change of pace from the rest of the game, but many people won't even do that if they dislike an activity. These days I get my PvP fix from doing GSF instead.

Kinda says a lot about how facerolling easy the PvE content is doesn't it that you don't have to use really a fraction of the provided abilities to get through the game...

As for the "PvP's community continuing to shrink over time", that's been the case since the game's launch, happens every year, WZs still pop... Not the end of the world... I had quit 3 years ago, and the only reason I even came back to this was to play the stories with my gf and do PvP again myself...

Going to the gym isn't fun the first several times you do it... Playing anything where you're jumping into a completely new learning environment isn't fun the first couple of times you do it... But hey, the game's PvP doesn't start at 75 either... And there are plenty of people that are out there willing to help people that will actually listen to the advice they have to offer freely... The problem is dude jumps into PvP at 75 with no previous experience, gets roflstomped and it's in no way, shape, or form a failure of his own preparation; instead it's "Oh, well that was that toxic PvP community I've heard about..." This is quite literally in all respects a L2P issue, for real...

Kinda says a lot about how facerolling easy the PvE content is doesn't it that you don't have to use really a fraction of the provided abilities to get through the game...

 

As for the "PvP's community continuing to shrink over time", that's been the case since the game's launch, happens every year, WZs still pop... Not the end of the world... I had quit 3 years ago, and the only reason I even came back to this was to play the stories with my gf and do PvP again myself...

 

Going to the gym isn't fun the first several times you do it... Playing anything where you're jumping into a completely new learning environment isn't fun the first couple of times you do it... But hey, the game's PvP doesn't start at 75 either... And there are plenty of people that are out there willing to help people that will actually listen to the advice they have to offer freely... The problem is dude jumps into PvP at 75 with no previous experience, gets roflstomped and it's in no way, shape, or form a failure of his own preparation; instead it's "Oh, well that was that toxic PvP community I've heard about..." This is quite literally in all respects a L2P issue, for real...

You missed my main point but that's ok. Yes Leveling is really easy, I'm not going to debate that. However even at launch when leveling wasn't easy there were abilities that were basically intended for PvP only, that no sane PvE exclusive player would bother putting on the bar.

Now you go into PvP for the first time, you may not realize you need to add, and consistently use those PvP only abilities. That's part of learning. Learning your class for PvE, and PvP are 2 completely different things.

You missed my main point but that's ok. Yes Leveling is really easy, I'm not going to debate that. However even at launch when leveling wasn't easy there were abilities that were basically intended for PvP only, that no sane PvE exclusive player would bother putting on the bar.

 

Now you go into PvP for the first time, you may not realize you need to add, and consistently use those PvP only abilities. That's part of learning. Learning your class for PvE, and PvP are 2 completely different things.

Literally exactly what the last sentence of my previous post said...

Literally exactly what the last sentence of my previous post said...

Just saying L2P, which is what you said is elitiest honestly, and is one of the reasons why when any player says that people find it just another toxic comment.

Instead, if people are having issues ask if they want help, if they say yes give advice. this is the better way to help people. This may actually help to Grow the PvP community.

Those that just say L2P are nothing but players who look down there nose at others.

Edit: Even tho you admit the 2 completely different playstyles/abilities how then would you expect people to know that in that individuals 1st match ever?

And just because you can PvP at lower levels, doesn't mean everyone does, so someone could easily do their first match at level 75. Not to mention some servers Lowbies hasn't popped for a very long time.

I think in many ways this is just a natural consequence of the the fact that game is 9 years old now. That is a lot of time for a gigantic chasm of a skill gap to form between new and/or casual players and veterans.

With that said, I think there are three relatively easy solutions to improve the unranked situation right now that don't involve changing back the weekly rewards (by the way, the weekly rewards are so piss poor from unranked, I'm not really sure why anyone cares, but that's a separate issue).

(1) Can we get an item level/gear requirement for unranked? Part of the balance issue is that you have people in 278 gear and no tactical. Of course these people invariably have no idea how to play their class on top of that. This is an ENORMOUS sandbag in a 4v4 match, and a sizeable one even in an 8v8 warzone. Given how ridiculously easy it is to gear these days, it's not unreasonable to expect that people have 306 gear and a matching tactical/gear set for their class before stepping into unranked. Not trying to be elitist, but there are too many people who aren't even basically competent in unranked and this would be a step in the right direction.

(2) Obviously none of us know exactly how unranked pvp matchmaking works, but as a casual empiricist, it doesn't appear that there is a "hidden ELO" that is used. Can we implement one to make matches more even if not?

(3) I think we just need a solo unranked and a group unranked because something needs to change with premades. As satisfying as it is to beat a premade with a bunch of randoms, it doesn't happen that often. Even if you're better than all four of the opposing players, chances are your teammates are not going to be. The pvp population isn't so thin (at least on my server) that this would be a problem.

Just saying L2P, which is what you said is elitiest honestly, and is one of the reasons why when any player says that people find it just another toxic comment..

I don't think you know what elitist means, cause what howieloader is saying has no similarities to elitism, what he is writing is simply realistic. If you want to win games to have them count towards your weekly you need to be contributing towards your team's chances of winning, having a decent understanding of your class and knowledge does contribute towards your chances of winning. The better player you are the more likely you are to win games, its really that simple, sure there are some fringe cases where you get matched with 7 players that you simply cannot carry alone but those cases are as rare as the cases where you get matched with 7 godlike players.

Nobody expects new players to know everything from the start, that would simply be stupid, new players that want to learn how to play their class better and spends some time/energy on that + gearing more optimally will end up having a much higher win rate than new players that don't improve.

There is no easy solution to the core issue (matchmaking) and devs have already commented that they rather give you quicker and slightly less balanced games than long ques and more balanced games (see Chris comment on Ranked queues). Sure Bioware can sink in a massive amount of time and resources into making an amazing matchmaking system and design, but it would take away resources from other parts of the game and give less content, I doubt any large faction of the player base would agree with such prioritizes.

Just saying L2P, which is what you said is elitiest honestly, and is one of the reasons why when any player says that people find it just another toxic comment.

 

Instead, if people are having issues ask if they want help, if they say yes give advice. this is the better way to help people. This may actually help to Grow the PvP community.

 

Those that just say L2P are nothing but players who look down there nose at others.

 

Edit: Even tho you admit the 2 completely different playstyles/abilities how then would you expect people to know that in that individuals 1st match ever?

 

And just because you can PvP at lower levels, doesn't mean everyone does, so someone could easily do their first match at level 75. Not to mention some servers Lowbies hasn't popped for a very long time.

Dude, my statement isn't elitist at all... It's practical to the extreme... First of all, it's not anyone else's place to go around and ask others if they need help with PvP, that's what a guild is for, and if you're in a big enough guild then I guarantee you there's someone with PvP knowledge of your class...

Secondly, saying L2P is exactly what needs to happen... The number of people I see in PvP in blue gear is ridiculous... The number of people I see with, for instance, a sniper rifle with no crystal in it is ridiculous... Like there is zero thought process... Do you know how many people come into WZs with no idea how their casts are being interrupted??? Or how the resolve bar works??? That don't know when to use their stun-break??? There's a post in the PvP forum right now claiming some dude was cheating/hacking (of course, it's always hackers lmao) and people explained "No, that's just a mara with this particular tactical using this ability", nope, wouldn't have it... It could only be hacking lmao...

There's only so much you can do with that mentality... My signature is what it is for a reason... It's comedy gold...

I also think the other thing that is a massive handicap is people not playing with 16+ button mouse... No excuse... Just literally no excuse to not have one... It makes an insane difference in playability in PvP...

But my point is - People that are bad at PvP need to (1st) learn their class abilities and skill tree, (2nd) learn to play their class, (3rd) have the means to play their class, and be humble enough to ask for help when they need it, then accept the given advice... Don't expect other people to initiate the communication and don't assume you know everything from the get go and no one else can help you... That last one holds so many people back it's not even funny...

I don't think you know what elitist means, cause what howieloader is saying has no similarities to elitism, what he is writing is simply realistic.

thanks m8

Kinda says a lot about how facerolling easy the PvE content is doesn't it that you don't have to use really a fraction of the provided abilities to get through the game...

 

As for the "PvP's community continuing to shrink over time", that's been the case since the game's launch, happens every year, WZs still pop... Not the end of the world... I had quit 3 years ago, and the only reason I even came back to this was to play the stories with my gf and do PvP again myself...

 

Going to the gym isn't fun the first several times you do it... Playing anything where you're jumping into a completely new learning environment isn't fun the first couple of times you do it... But hey, the game's PvP doesn't start at 75 either... And there are plenty of people that are out there willing to help people that will actually listen to the advice they have to offer freely... The problem is dude jumps into PvP at 75 with no previous experience, gets roflstomped and it's in no way, shape, or form a failure of his own preparation; instead it's "Oh, well that was that toxic PvP community I've heard about..." This is quite literally in all respects a L2P issue, for real...

On the subject of PvE, I find it easy because it's so predictable most of the time; as long as you can predict in advance when a boss is going to push a phase or cast an ability and are ready for whatever you have to do in response, boom you've mastered that mechanic, and all it takes at maximum is a few runs shaking off all those mistakes, plus full knowledge of gear and how to min/max stats

PvP is more unpredictable; the fact that you can never choose what warzone you're put in is the most basic example of that, and the opposing sentient players will always be unpredictable; be it from their classes, strategy, trolling, etc. It's not the kind of thing I have fun with doing on a regular basis, and the toxicity is only going to get worse with no-reward losses and teams starting to get strict with no one but the already best wz players on their team.

A skunking due to a couple of players not passing the L2P threshold yet was already an unhappy experience, now it's only going to get worse. I blame the game, not cheating or the players, but it's because of that that I won't be trying to learn PvP anytime soon.

Not A PvPer, but I've been following this thread because I find the discussion interesting. Now as sort of an outside looking in point of view...

If it weren't for the new augments, I would have never even looked at PvP again. After being a match were the game queued 4 players on one team and 1 player on the other, just couldn't take it seriously. There's no contest of skill in something like that and I felt bad for the 1 guy on the other team.

So, it's very obvious that the devs are trying to incentivize playing PvP. Currently the highest conquest rewards are all for PvP and the materials for making the new augments are locked behind ranked PvP. It seems to me, this was the easy way to encourage players to play the game mode, rather than maybe doing something about some of the "mechanical" issues PvP might be facing. I don't expect every aspect of the game to be tailored to my particular interest. However, I think the devs could do more to level the playing field, if they're going to put more than bragging rights on the line, when it comes to PvP.

I know it might not be the direction some people want to see this conversation head... But it is no fun having someone get abusive because you are new to PvP and have no clue what you are doing. Everyone had to learn at some point and people prone to this reaction to new people learning, could do a lot to help the PvP community by showing a little more patience. The devs can't do it all. The people that want to see PvP get better might have to step up and get a little grass roots about it. It's not going to help anything if people just look to get theirs and only view others as a means to that end. I mean you have to see the toon for the person playing it.

Anyhow. Just my two cents. Thanks.

Just saying L2P, which is what you said is elitiest honestly, and is one of the reasons why when any player says that people find it just another toxic comment.

 

Instead, if people are having issues ask if they want help, if they say yes give advice. this is the better way to help people. This may actually help to Grow the PvP community.

 

Those that just say L2P are nothing but players who look down there nose at others.

 

Edit: Even tho you admit the 2 completely different playstyles/abilities how then would you expect people to know that in that individuals 1st match ever?

 

And just because you can PvP at lower levels, doesn't mean everyone does, so someone could easily do their first match at level 75. Not to mention some servers Lowbies hasn't popped for a very long time.

I mean, the problem is you do have to learn to play at some point.

I am not advising (or endorsing, or condoning) those who are rude to new players.

On the other hand, new players shouldn't go into their first PvP match expecting to:

1.) win

2.) do well

3.) be as competitive as those who've been playing the game for the past ten years

I mean, the problem is you do have to learn to play at some point.

 

I am not advising (or endorsing, or condoning) those who are rude to new players.

 

On the other hand, new players shouldn't go into their first PvP match expecting to:

 

1.) win

2.) do well

3.) be as competitive as those who've been playing the game for the past ten years

True, and I agree 100%, but with the fact that even the introduction mission requires a win, it's a kick in the teeth to new players from the start. All it takes is a few runs of bad games before they quit, and stop trying. At least with the points system mentioned, they have some sort of goal, and most players will learn, and improve.

I mean, the problem is you do have to learn to play at some point.

 

I am not advising (or endorsing, or condoning) those who are rude to new players.

 

On the other hand, new players shouldn't go into their first PvP match expecting to:

 

1.) win

2.) do well

3.) be as competitive as those who've been playing the game for the past ten years

Sadly the matchmaking system doesn’t balance around this either. The randomness seemed better, at least back in the early days of pvp with no match making and lots of players.

In the old days, the learning curve was nearly vertical at max lvl (people would therefore learn in lowbies and Mids), and there was a larger selection of good players that could carry those brand new players that were learning, which is no longer the case.

The pve game was also significantly harder than now and people got to know their classes a lot better from just pveing.

You also had smaller and fairer brackets in lowbies and Mids and Bioware encouraged you to partially lvl up that way if you wanted to pvp in end game (pvp token rewards for end game gear).

Now there is a massive disconnect between lowbie, mid and end game pvp. People don’t learn to pvp in the lower brackets anymore and it hardly pops 8v8 anymore, so it’s impossible for new people to learn tactics or strategy there.

Many of us have been saying all of the above about lowbies/Mids and learning to pvp (except the matchmaking part) since 5.0 landed. It’s my opinion that 5.0 is what really started the significant decline of pvp quality and Bioware have been fighting to stop pvp from dying ever since.

There have been so many good suggestions made by the community over the years to help, but Bioware are disconnected and either don’t listen or cherry one pick part of an idea like the deserter lockout outs without fixing the other parts first.

Deserter lockouts and removing players ability to progress the missions if they lose, only works if you fix all the reasons that people want to desert to start with and you have a working matchmaking system and enough players to make this win/loss system work.

If those issues aren’t fixed first, it drives legitimate PVPers further away from the pvp game and discourages new ones from learning because the whole process feels like you are being punished for things out of your control.

There are no easy/fast fixes to the over all problems because they’ve been neglected for so long. Sometimes it feels like reg pvp is held together with duct tape.

What doesn’t help is Bioware seem to only care about the ranked community feed back. If they say xyz, then it must be true or ok.

But if the reg community or casuals say something different, then it must be nonsense. And sadly, the ranked community backs this attitude by saying regs don’t matter all the time.

And what they don’t understand is regs is where people learn to love pvp and get better. If you remove the fun and enjoyment from regs, people don’t love to play it, they don’t get better and you have less people to refill the cycle of ranked players leaving the game.

Bioware, make regs fun again.

Yeah, I think I've gotten carried away from the context of the argument/complaint. Trixxie's 4:1 point system doesn't seem too bad to me.

could go with 4:1 on a 20 point weekly and a 5 point daily, would still heavily promote playing to win but would still allow ppl who prefer to afk at nodes or don't contribute to getting their weekly in a reasonable amount of time

Dude, my statement isn't elitist at all... It's practical to the extreme... First of all, it's not anyone else's place to go around and ask others if they need help with PvP, that's what a guild is for, and if you're in a big enough guild then I guarantee you there's someone with PvP knowledge of your class...

 

Secondly, saying L2P is exactly what needs to happen... The number of people I see in PvP in blue gear is ridiculous... The number of people I see with, for instance, a sniper rifle with no crystal in it is ridiculous... Like there is zero thought process... Do you know how many people come into WZs with no idea how their casts are being interrupted??? Or how the resolve bar works??? That don't know when to use their stun-break??? There's a post in the PvP forum right now claiming some dude was cheating/hacking (of course, it's always hackers lmao) and people explained "No, that's just a mara with this particular tactical using this ability", nope, wouldn't have it... It could only be hacking lmao...

 

There's only so much you can do with that mentality... My signature is what it is for a reason... It's comedy gold...

 

I also think the other thing that is a massive handicap is people not playing with 16+ button mouse... No excuse... Just literally no excuse to not have one... It makes an insane difference in playability in PvP...

 

But my point is - People that are bad at PvP need to (1st) learn their class abilities and skill tree, (2nd) learn to play their class, (3rd) have the means to play their class, and be humble enough to ask for help when they need it, then accept the given advice... Don't expect other people to initiate the communication and don't assume you know everything from the get go and no one else can help you... That last one holds so many people back it's not even funny...

No your statement is pretty elitist and that mentality is literally why I don't pvp here, and actively discourage my guildmates and friends from trying it out, to save them the trouble. I thought I was used to toxicity from other MMO's but this game really has it the worst. It's not as if it's just one or two bad apples, but legitimately the "nicest" people I've met in pvp are only the ones who haven't said anything yet. Otherwise it's nothing but bad apples with actually zero good ones (across 11 queues totaled over 3 days). Combining that with a lack of any real endgame, probably going to enjoy the last of my 2nd months sub and call it there.

could go with 4:1 on a 20 point weekly and a 5 point daily, would still heavily promote playing to win but would still allow ppl who prefer to afk at nodes or don't contribute to getting their weekly in a reasonable amount of time

What’s the current reg weekly at the moment?

Without double checking, I think it’s 10 wins.

With my 4:1 ratio (That would make it 40 points, not 20), it would be 40 straight losses or you’d need 10 wins, the same as now.

Playing 40 games and afking for them all would not be time efficient or reasonable. They would need to try and win every match still and if for some reason they lose, they still get a small token towards the mission completion.

The average 8 man match is 10 mins. If they are dumb enough to afk every match, it would take them a little over 6.5 hours of sitting doing nothing.

No your statement is pretty elitist and that mentality is literally why I don't pvp here, and actively discourage my guildmates and friends from trying it out, to save them the trouble. I thought I was used to toxicity from other MMO's but this game really has it the worst. It's not as if it's just one or two bad apples, but legitimately the "nicest" people I've met in pvp are only the ones who haven't said anything yet. Otherwise it's nothing but bad apples with actually zero good ones (across 11 queues totaled over 3 days). Combining that with a lack of any real endgame, probably going to enjoy the last of my 2nd months sub and call it there.

That’s taking it a bit far and I resent the implication that all pvpers are toxic.

That’s taking it a bit far and I resent the implication that all pvpers are toxic.

It's a lot like the people who complain that GF is toxic. They have a couple of bad experiences and they label everything as "toxic"

In the 1000s of GF flashpoints I've done, there's only been a handful of really toxic runs.

I don't generally PvP but the few times I have, I haven't met with any toxic players.

"Spoil the whole bunch, one bad fruit does not" - Oteg