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Sith Assassins Are Bad for DPS Raiding


jtkitche

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I have heard a lot of discussion around this, that for DPS in any of the operation Hard Mode/Nightmare Modes that Sith Assassins fail compared to Operative DPS and for raid purposes a Maurader would be selected over operative and operative over assasin, but maurader over both in most cases due to the threat/dmg reduction buff they can create on MT or MH.

 

Thoughts? My best bud has rolled a Sith Assassin and I want to incorporate him into our raids, but don't want to gimp the group either...

 

Please shed some light here on the DPS builds by Sith Assassins and why they should be viable for Raiding compared to their other Melee DPS counterparts the Operative/Maurader/Juggernaught

 

-Thy (Hedarr Soongh - Dark Souls)

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If they are behind at all, it is not by much. No one actually knows how much 'dps' anyone else is actually doing right now. With decent gear, any dps class can be useful in most situations. Don't let the naysayers and trolls deter you from including a solid player in your operations group. Remember, player skill often outweighs class shortcomings, if there are any. A good player in bad gear will be more useful than a bad player with stellar gear. A good player on the most difficult rotations toon will be better than a bad player on the faceroll toon. Again, evaluate the player - class mechanics are ever changing. It's not wise to alienate good players simply because they aren't playing the flavor of the month.
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I have heard a lot of discussion around this, that for DPS in any of the operation Hard Mode/Nightmare Modes that Sith Assassins fail compared to Operative DPS and for raid purposes a Maurader would be selected over operative and operative over assasin, but maurader over both in most cases due to the threat/dmg reduction buff they can create on MT or MH.

 

Thoughts? My best bud has rolled a Sith Assassin and I want to incorporate him into our raids, but don't want to gimp the group either...

 

Please shed some light here on the DPS builds by Sith Assassins and why they should be viable for Raiding compared to their other Melee DPS counterparts the Operative/Maurader/Juggernaught

 

-Thy (Hedarr Soongh - Dark Souls)

 

i recorded a few videos of karagga palace bosses on 8 man hard mode and alot of people have said my dps is low because they do 5k+ crits where my assassin does 3.3k max crit, i have 4/5 columi stalker armor with the t2 pve weapon.

 

so yea i defo think assassins need a dps boost, but at the present moment of time im leveling a sorc just so i can raid with decent damage as it doesnt feel like my assassin contributes much to raids

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Comparing based on the fact that you do 3.3K crits and someone else does 5K crits is pretty limitted information. If you're doing those 3.3K crits twice as fast as their 5k crits, then you're essentially doing more dmg. You have to include speed and overall dmg output. Alot of lower dmg hits over the same period of time that someone else laid down 1 big one balances out. Again, until we have any measure of actual numbers, this is all speculation and scare-tactic.
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I haven't raided yet as i'm level 45 but I'd think that a Darkness spec assasin would be pivotal to a raid environment.

 

  • We can shield, lowering threat by 25% to a single target.
     
  • Spike, or Electrocute add 9% damage from all sources if you go 3/3 Nerve Wracking.
     
  • Whither decreases damage dealt by a massive 5%
     
  • Dark charge's discharge decreases accuracy.

 

Sin's do a ton of Internal damage, which I hear is rarely resisted. And have Tons of survival tools. Again, I'm not yet a raider and might be talking out my ***, but a 9% Raid buff to damage roughly every 45 seconds seems like a hell of a reason to have a Darkness Assassin in your raid.

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I haven't raided yet as i'm level 45 but I'd think that a Darkness spec assasin would be pivotal to a raid environment.

 

  • We can shield, lowering threat by 25% to a single target.
     
  • Spike, or Electrocute add 9% damage from all sources if you go 3/3 Nerve Wracking.
     
  • Whither decreases damage dealt by a massive 5%
     
  • Dark charge's discharge decreases accuracy.

 

Sin's do a ton of Internal damage, which I hear is rarely resisted. And have Tons of survival tools. Again, I'm not yet a raider and might be talking out my ***, but a 9% Raid buff to damage roughly every 45 seconds seems like a hell of a reason to have a Darkness Assassin in your raid.

 

To that,No sin is going to be dps in dark charge,which is of course required to shield someone.dps'ing in dark charge not only is going to lower your damage bonus by 5% right off the bat,but you're going to be a liability because you're going to produce massive amounts of threat with dark charge on.Pull a bosses attention at the wrong time because of that and you just wiped you're raid.As you know Dark charge,and deep darkness tree,is a tank charge/tree,not dps.

 

Most bosses are immune to electrocute and spike.So any mobs that the 9% extra dmg would matter on,are immune to the effect anyways.

 

I'll give you wither and discharge with dark charge,but again.....MASSIVE THREAT caused by these abilities isn't worth the risk.In this instance,the OP is talking about being a dps sin in a raid.If you are deep enough in darkness to have wither.....you're not a dps...you're a tank.

 

I won't argue how our dps stacks up against other classes right now,because we don't actually know without combat logs and parses.I will however say that we are definitely lacking group utility in our dps specs.There's basically nothing we bring as far as in combat group utility.Sure,we can sap a mob from stealth,but that's obviously worthless (in most cases) on a boss fight.Other than that,we've basically got nothing but damage to give,and how much of that we give is even suspect.

Edited by Dravinix
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As a raid tank in full rakata, i can say the only dps ive had to guard in a raid has been the sin, then again i group with a sin who isnt retarded.

 

Know your class, the sin isnt weak, it just attracts weak players.

 

Agreed.

 

I don't mean to be mean here, but the amount of horrible Assassins outweigh the good ones, at least the ones I've seen and played with so far.

 

People see the double-bladed lightsaber when choosing their AC and are instantly attracted to it, without bothering to look at play style or end-game expectations. Similar effect with Marauders, Mercenaries and Snipers.

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Assassins are very gear dependent. Once they get to higher gear lvls, their damage starts to scale much higher. The higher their crit gets, the better surge gets, which can make them hit much harder.

 

Also, from what I have been reading, a madness hybrid spec does extremly high damage for end game PVE, but I think most sins stick with pure deception.

 

The biggest problem this class faces is a case of mistaken identity. Everyone thinks they are burst damage rogues. Ops are the rogues. We are the shamans/pallies. Yes we stealth and a backstab, but we have no alpha stealth strike, and our backstab should only be used on a proc of duplicity. The rest of the time we are shocking, dischargine, and voltaic slashing(deception) or raze/death field(madness). If you really look at those abilities, you will see that they are very similar to a shaman. Shock is self explanitory. Voltaic slash is just like the old stormstrike, chain shock talant unleashes a second shock for half damage(mirrors an old elemntal shaman talant that unleashed a second lightning bolt for half damage) discharge unleashes the proc you have on your weapon, ect. Hell a madness sin is like a crazy mashup of a rogue, shaman, warlock, and shadow priest. We are def not rogues. We have some burst damage, but are not the burst class. Ops are the rogue/burst class.

 

My whole point is that people need to realize just how different this class really plays. And if you take the time to learn how to play it, it can shine on all fronts. Its gets a bad rap because so many poor players are playing it. Inquisitor is by far the most played class imp side, and its the most complex class of the lot. This leads to a lot of poor play, making us look much worse than we really should.

Edited by Saberolson
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  • 2 weeks later...

I play an Assassin at 50 with moderate gear and I completely regret it.

 

Assassins have no raid utility and next to no damage, and the only attacks Assassins have are Thrash/VS, Shock, and Discharge. Everything else is self utility that benefits no one else.

 

Assassins need to be viable to bring to raids.

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I did my first raid yesterday. been thrown out of groups before but let me tell you its about the group.

 

Yes we are squishy and melee and cant do much about it. But I am pretty sure I was out DPSing the operative when It came to bossess. For ow hp enemies, he could destroy them before I could. However, for sustained damage when I could stand behind then boss and let rip, I doing pretty decent damage.

 

I am pure deception, with 2 decent pieces of gear. Remember popping relic, using procs and I could hit decent numbers easy. On a VS, VS, Maul, VS,VS, Shock,Disharge kinda rotation I was doing 800 VS, 3k maul, 2.5k discharge, 2.5k shock and 2.5k assassinates

 

For one rotation that becomes 3200+3k+2.5k+2.5k = 11k. at under 30% enemy health add assassinate and its pretty decent.

 

I dont really care about the number the op was belting out, but there is not way he could out damage this over say 4 rotations which is how long your force would last if done properly.

Edited by sankalp
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It's pretty trivial to DPS in Dark Charge, just start in Lightning Charge and switch stance during one of the obvious break points in most raids. If no such things exist, you might have to take a slight DPS hit at the start, though Energize really doesn't add that much DPS so you could just DPS in Lightning Charge even if you're Darkness speced if you're not worried about AEs.

 

I'm not sure how people come up an idea of how much DPS you're doing without combat logs. The only mob you can measure is the 4th boss in EV and I'm always on the mob with the most HP, and I usually kill it before other people kill the mob with second most HP. Of course that doens't really say anything without knowing what other people are doing but I don't see any glaring weaknesses.

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Why is the advanced class called Assassins again?

 

Someone actually made a petition thread to change the Assassin class to Wraith. I think it'd be more fitting too. We're not very Assassin-y, to be honest. I love my character though, fully specced deception sin. My damage is fine, my PvP is fine, you just have to not be retarded.

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Without damage meters any guild that blames class X on why they can't finish bosses is basically using that as an excuse on why they just aren't good enough to win.

 

Sounds like a guild full of nubs that like to blame problems on the easiest thing possible.

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I can do 5k crits. In fact, I can do 5k crits while 3 dots are active on the enemy, also rolling crits of their own at the same time. Madness assassin. All it takes is a few bad examples to make us all look bad. Comparative to other dps I've encountered I actually have been getting the feeling that we could use a nerf if anything. Edited by Krie_Marina
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Without damage meters any guild that blames class X on why they can't finish bosses is basically using that as an excuse on why they just aren't good enough to win.

 

Sounds like a guild full of nubs that like to blame problems on the easiest thing possible.

 

Partially true. It's hard to say for sure when it comes to long fights, but you can notice trends in how much damage a 'sin is likely to bring compared to an OP etc. My personal feeling, having played both OP and 'sin at lvl 50, is the obvious "OPs burst like mad". After that it evens out and feels more or less the same over a bossfight. As an OP you can vanish + HS to burst again, as a Sin you do a higher and less finicky dps.

 

Marauders are just OP atm though. I'm not sure their actual DPS is that different from Sin/OP, but they have sweet, sweet buffs.

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I can do 5k crits. In fact, I can do 5k crits while 3 dots are active on the enemy, also rolling crits of their own at the same time. Madness assassin. All it takes is a few bad examples to make us all look bad. Comparative to other dps I've encountered I actually have been getting the feeling that we could use a nerf if anything.

 

I've always wanted to try Madness in a raid, but I usually roll with Deception as I have gotten used to it. I must say that I don't feel like I'm terrible at it. For now I believe the closest "meter" you can get to is with the Infernal Council. As Deception, I usually finish on time or just slightly after the other DPS. This is of course without being able to use Force Cloak for the extra force regen (not sure if that would cause my guy to go attack someone else and F it up or not, so haven't tried) or being able to use Maul. Of course, I know other classes have abilities they can only use from behind as well and can't on this fight.

 

I know Madness spec theoretically should pull more sustained DPS. I haven't tried it yet, but I imagine it would be a real pain to be Madness on a fight like Soa, where you just have short windows where you have to kill something else or bursting him down in phase 3. This is where I think Deception would be a better spec, but that's not to say that Madness isn't viable either.

 

Basically, I believe I do fine as a Deception assassin. I believe Madness assassins can do fine as well given sustained damage. It may feel weak at times when Blackout and Force Cloak are on cooldown and you're hovering near 0 force, but once those cooldowns are back up the damage is quite nice. Also, many classes have the same low-dps phases in their rotations, as they're all usually limited by their resource at some point.

 

As it's been said many times, it's hard to really tell for sure without a damage meter, but I don't believe that Assassins are hindering any operation.

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I raid HM OP's and I'm always finished 1-3rd (being beat by sorcs only, by max 2-5 seconds) on the marauder solo boss (100k~ hp). Difference is usually some lucky crit. Deception spec and this is without useing maul, because obviously I can't cc the mob.

So actually I loose out on some dps and still do good.

Anyone saying assassin dps don't have dps potential don't know what they are talking about.

Edited by excentric
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4k deathfield crits, while my dots tick and crit for 600... yea... I'm good. Sins can battle res, offtank with the press of a button and I'm sure were only out dpsed on bosses by a marauder, we can also taunt to save healers and self heal to help lighten the load on healers. I can't tell if you were serious or not with this thread cuz you would really have to be a dick to not let your best friend come with you when there's no way to prove he is sub optimal.
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I play an Assassin at 50 with moderate gear and I completely regret it.

 

Assassins have no raid utility and next to no damage, and the only attacks Assassins have are Thrash/VS, Shock, and Discharge. Everything else is self utility that benefits no one else.

 

Assassins need to be viable to bring to raids.

 

Wow can you be any more wrong? If you're in Deception build, how do you leave out the most important and highest damaging ability in Maul??? You also left out Assassinate. If you're talking about Madness, I've had to make a post asking for suggestions on how to keep all the ability timers and procs in check and not let anything drop b4 refreshing. Assassins aren't low dps b/c the class is messed up, Assassins are low dps because the class is difficult to play to the best of its (hey look, no apostrophe) abilities.

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4k deathfield crits, while my dots tick and crit for 600... yea... I'm good. Sins can battle res, offtank with the press of a button and I'm sure were only out dpsed on bosses by a marauder, we can also taunt to save healers and self heal to help lighten the load on healers. I can't tell if you were serious or not with this thread cuz you would really have to be a dick to not let your best friend come with you when there's no way to prove he is sub optimal.

 

Class is good but not that good. Unless I'm wrong, but we cannot battle res, that's on Sorcerers. I'm also not sure taunting mobs off healers when we're in Lightning Charge is a good idea. We're just as squishy as the healers and if we pull that aggro off them it might take less time for the mob to kill us than the healer. You be better off to try to kill the mob instead, and that's harder to do with a Maul build when target is facing you.

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Class is good but not that good. Unless I'm wrong, but we cannot battle res, that's on Sorcerers. I'm also not sure taunting mobs off healers when we're in Lightning Charge is a good idea. We're just as squishy as the healers and if we pull that aggro off them it might take less time for the mob to kill us than the healer. You be better off to try to kill the mob instead, and that's harder to do with a Maul build when target is facing you.

 

Walk to corpse, force cloak, battle res, sprint back behind boss...

Healer under attack, taunt, dark charge, deflection, can even shroud if neccesary...

 

So yea....

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It's anecdotal, but on the Infernal Council fight, the annihilation marauder from my standard hard mode group and I (madness) both take on a 49k hp mob. Since it's a solo fight that begins at the same time for both of us, I feel like it's a pretty good dps race comparison. I routinely kill my council member before he does. He's got insane burst and great sustained dps, but on a 1+ minute fight I pull ahead with dots. Typically I'm done first, then him, then a toss up between the other dps. The poor sniper always needs help; it's not a kind fight for him.

 

My gut feeling is that Madness dps outshines Deception. I definitely feel the difference in operations, where mob hp is higher and fights last a little longer. Once you get a feel for the spec and how to properly hang your dots, it all comes together and makes for a really fun and unique class experience. Deception is just a WoW port, sad to say. I leveled with it, but I don't really feel like it's raid viable compared to Madness. The utility it gives you such as faster stealth movement just isn't helpful on an operation, and your range limitations become a major liability.

 

If anyone needs help, it's Deception. Madness is fine. Honestly, Deception could go a long way just by having someone take a close look at Static Charges. It's pretty clear that they're just a stand in for combo points. Build 5, hit stuff hard. It's awfully simple. The problem is that there aren't enough ways to build them.

Edited by Cambriel
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