I'd like to hear from the Development team why two abilities for Marauders do not work during the Dread Guard Nightmare mode Lightning explosion but snipers can roll and be "immune" to a mechanic negating everything as well as Sorc's Barrier. (granted, they can only barrier one of the explosions... but they can then save the next cd for when they have doom).

Here's the problem and this could (should be) a bug.

When Heirad does his lightning explosion the Marauder can use either Cloak of pain || Saber ward to help lessen the blow of it. Using Undying Rage // Camo does absolutely NOTHING for the marauder... Two abilities that are supposed to lessen damage, absolutely useless. If a marauder is sub 13k going into the explosion, they are dead because they can't use either of those abilities.

People that can "go around" the lightning explosion damage:

Assassins can Shroud (though who is bringing those to any nightmare content at this point... they are dreadful in both dps and tanking)

Sorcs can bubble the explosion

and Snipers can roll.

Is this a bug >>>> Snipers/sorcs can also get away with not going through 6 puddles during ciphas which gives a huge DPS advantage. If players can go around a mechanic, raid dps will obviously be higher. As fun as playing drinking games to people dying to Doom can be, the party gets a little boring when snipers/sorcs end up with the debuff

The problem that the immunity brings is raid stacking. For any newer guilds that hit nightmare content and DONT SKIP BOSSES, they can "beat" DG by stacking snipers as their dps. Not to mention that Snipers are still single handily the best DPS in the game because ranged -rarely- have to move. The amount of fights in all Operation content that are majority Ranged friendly is just way too unbalanced.

Sins are terrible tanks? I wonder why our only problem is dps dying from LF, doom and red circles and not my survivability on this fight... Better correct my suckiness to die more often on 16 man content. Sin tanks require two things. 1. Skilled player to abuse CDs and know the class. 2. A good Merc or Operative healer who knows the fight and the spikiness of tanks.

Also, to meet the time req for the third surging chain, it's better for snipers to go MM and entrench + sheild for LF. You can continue to dps and you only take 5-7k damage.

Marauders undying rage is bugged plain and simple.

Is this a bug >>>> Snipers/sorcs can also get away with not going through 6 puddles during ciphas which gives a huge DPS advantage.

I'm not sure if serious or trolling. You want to use up those Green puddles. Can you imagine how clustered that room will be if all 4 Snipers just roll out of doom and not pick up the green puddles? Those green puddles also carry over to kelsara phase just fyi. So you are arguing that these classes can mitigate Doom damage which lets them NOT pick up green puddles... have you seen a Kelsara phase with 6 green puddles and 6 red puddles with more red puddles coming on the way and you are just idk.. ~30 seconds into Phase 3?

There can be other supporting claims to your argument but not using up green stacks is not one of them...

You want to use up the green stacks so you have room to maneuver in Phase 3.

-___-

Some of Sentinels/Marauders' defensive CDs do not work on NiM DG. Is this intentional or is this a bug? Specifically, Guarded by the Force/Undying Rage does nothing to mitigate Heirad's lightning damage.

Is this a bug >>>> Snipers/sorcs can also get away with not going through 6 puddles during ciphas which gives a huge DPS advantage.

Also to follow up on my previous post, here is an alternative to calling out snipers and sorcs for their "huge DPS advantage"

I suggest your raid try this:

[color="Lime"]()()()()()()[/color]

[color="Red"]ciphas[/color]


for green puddle aligntment

instead of this:

[color="Lime"]()[/color]                                   [color="Lime"]()[/color]                                                            [color="Lime"]()[/color]


[color="Lime"]()[/color]       

                                                                                            [color="Red"]ciphas[/color]



[color="Lime"]()[/color]                                                                                 [color="Lime"]()[/color]

I am sure your snipers and sorcs will not only get a huge DPS advantage by doing the above, but the rest of your raid as well.

I'd like to hear from the Development team why two abilities for Marauders do not work during the Dread Guard Nightmare mode Lightning explosion but snipers can roll and be "immune" to a mechanic negating everything as well as Sorc's Barrier. (granted, they can only barrier one of the explosions... but they can then save the next cd for when they have doom).

Fyi, undying rage does not provide immunity. It provides 99% damage reduction, if you are doomed, 1% of dooms damage will still kill you. As for camaflogue, as far as I know it cuts all incoming damage by 50% for the entire duration. I am not sure why it would not cut lightning damage by 50%. Are you sure that it doesn't?

Fyi, undying rage does not provide immunity. It provides 99% damage reduction, if you are doomed, 1% of dooms damage will still kill you. As for camaflogue, as far as I know it cuts all incoming damage by 50% for the entire duration. I am not sure why it would not cut lightning damage by 50%. Are you sure that it doesn't?

In my experience force camo does make a huge difference.

1. Skilled player to abuse CDs and know the class. 2. A good Merc or Operative healer who knows the fight and the spikiness of tanks.

Sins have no cooldowns that defend against nontech/force without aid of the RNG. NM (and HM operations chief) as a sin is literally "roll 1d6, if you get a 1, you die even at full health".

Sins have no cooldowns that defend against nontech/force without aid of the RNG. NM (and HM operations chief) as a sin is literally "roll 1d6, if you get a 1, you die even at full health".

Overcharge saber... It increases DR by 25% aka 60.53% total DR for 15 seconds in full underworld. Put that with a exotech absorb adrenal and you have 15 seconds of 70% DR! So what exactly are you talking about when you say sin don't have any cooldowns against nontech/force without the aid of the RNG? I'm pretty sure DR is static.

Also the math has been done on Operator cheif, he doesn't one shot you in HM, he can kill a nonshielded sin who is below ~75-80% in one hit for 16 man HM. NiM will need a cooldown, but this is true for all tanking classes now.

Sins have no cooldowns that defend against nontech/force without aid of the RNG. NM (and HM operations chief) as a sin is literally "roll 1d6, if you get a 1, you die even at full health".

On Friday in HM Thrasher hit me for over 30k as well. I got instant kill from Operations Chief too. Althogether I died 10 times through 2,5h very good run through S&V HM. 1-2 deaths may have been avoided with more optimal group composition (we had two sage healers, and one of them was extremely good player but on slightly undergeared character), but a few were hard to avoid in any way

We have a cooldown that helps though - Battle Readiness. But it's just one ability on long cooldown. I hope it get slightly better when I have more gear, I now have everything you can have from TFB HM except second UW relic and some stuff from S&V.

On Friday in HM Thrasher hit me for over 30k as well. I got instant kill from Operations Chief too. Althogether I died 10 times through 2,5h very good run through S&V HM. 1-2 deaths may have been avoided with more optimal group composition (we had two sage healers, and one of them was extremely good player but on slightly undergeared character), but a few were hard to avoid in any way

 

We have a cooldown that helps though - Battle Readiness. But it's just one ability on long cooldown. I hope it get slightly better when I have more gear, I now have everything you can have from TFB HM except second UW relic and some stuff from S&V.

Don't go on thrasher as a sin/shadow tank. You should be going up on the adds, while those guys hurt, they aren't "as" bursty and you'd do better anyway.

While it sucks that you can't tank trasher very well as a sin tank, that's the hands we were dealt. So don't put yourself in a position where you'll most likely die. You have two tanks for a reason so abuse the system a bit.

So if you have two shadow tanks then none of them go on thrasher? In any case, I have tanked thrasher with my shadow in hard mode and yes, even if I play my shadow perfectly, bad RNG may kill me. There was also a mention here about battle readiness which, in the current state of PVE, is an ability on a very long cooldown.

Would be nice if more stop by the shadow tank forums and read that spikes happen more often than cooldown availability for a shadow. While Suckafish is taking an Assassin tank please look at their healers and group when they play. Everything is tuned to help furyi and then some. When furyi gets one shot as a tank you can't say assassins/shadows are fine. Sorry to say but the game is broken at the moment and does not cater for the majority. I want to know how many guilds have healers like suckafish and how many don't?

A guardian can take TWO THE END from sunder without dying. A vanguard can take two as well without dying, a shadow will take one thru resilience and if his battlereadiness is on cd, because he used it from the massive butchering it is goodnight my someone, goodnight. Heck, even through battlereadiness I got killed a few times because I was the only tank alive. Of course you can argue about tank swapping mechanics but the truth remains : other tanks provide a better chance of success. This is HODOR as the balancing needs to be better. How you doing Jesse? All good?

Not going to lie, two shadow tanks are not a smart move to make.

Sin tanks need a buff yes, but the fact everyone q-q about how they are unplayable is complete garbage. They are difficult to use and need a buff to make them more accessible, but don't think for a moment that they are terrible.

Assassins tanks are fine except for "Terminate" by "Operations Chief" which is a badly designed move rather than making assassins a badly designed tank.

SuckaFish's 8man progression tank is a Sin.. If he can have it his way he'd probably bring 2 Sin tanks.

I think I said this during nim dg progression in terms of pushing a bit more raid dps, but I think 1 Sin and 1 Jugg are best atm. I'd still rather run 2 assassins than 0 assassins.

Well yeah they're fine except for the highest end encounters in the game. Which is what this thread is about.

No they're fine for Nightmare content. The first 2 guilds to clear NiM S&V 8man both use sin tanks.

I think both furyi and I are well aware of the fact that they need a buff.

The fact people ***** that they are underpowered to the point of not being usable is completely false. They are fine to do the current content in my opinion, I worry about raids down the road if we don't get a buff, it might become very bad, very quickly.

As it is, I don't see a problem.

able to clear content doesnt mean they are fine, go on the shadow class forum, they will clarify that for you

Being in used for progressions by top guilds does mean that they're fine for top level content, else these guilds would choose to take the other tanks. I have level 55 characters of all 3 tanking classes and choose to take my assassin for progression.

The complaints on the assassin forums are that they are spikey, this is countered by good players knowing how to use their cooldowns to maximum effectiveness.

I think the self heal from dark charge should be based off max hp to ensure they scale fairly.

Everyone complaining about sin tanks mitigation levels need to understand they fill a more utility role than straight up tank and take less damage like other tanks.

The complaints on the assassin forums are that they are spikey, this is countered by good players knowing how to use their cooldowns to maximum effectiveness.

Been one-shot by Terminate much lately? What about Force Scream + Voltaic Slash on Kel'sara's third phase?

Cooldowns do not solve the problem. This has been demonstrated MANY times on the tank forums, but I'll say it again here. Spike intervals are too frequent for CDs to always be up. Huge Grenade and Terminate are both excellent examples of this, since the only CDs which work on them have 2 minute cooldowns, while Terminate is used once every 40 seconds, and Huge Grenade is once every 80 seconds (give or take, I don't remember the exact interval). And on top of that, we only have one CD which is actually guaranteed (Resilience is 95%, Deflection is a 50% additive boost to a ~27% base, for a ~77% total chance).

Even if CDs did solve the problem, the fact that shadows *need* to use them while the other tanks don't and can thus save them for more opportune moments is in and of itself a significant balance issue.

I like my shadow too. I'm well aware of how to play it and how to maximize the value of my cooldowns and my self-heal. I'm not exactly new to the party. :-) Believe me when I say that the shadow issues are not just L2P related. The math is very clear on this. I know Suckafish takes an assassin tank to progression, and that does surprise me a bit, but it doesn't change anything about their current balance problems. Just because you *can* clear content with an assassin/shadow tank does not mean it is as easy to do so as it would be with a different tank class.