Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

All the systems for 6.0 seem unappealing. Bioware you need to pay attention.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
All the systems for 6.0 seem unappealing. Bioware you need to pay attention.

PiiTarr's Avatar


PiiTarr
09.11.2019 , 03:51 PM | #241
Quote: Originally Posted by kodrac View Post
In the past I would have renewed just to check out the story if nothing else, but today I looked to see how much time was left on my sub and I just can't pull the trigger. Last time i checked was 6 months ago and my sub had just renewed two days prior otherwise I would've let it lapse back then. I haven't had the motivation to log in in quite a while and now that it's time to renew I can't pay for something I don't use. I mean, I still pay for Netflix but at least my girlfriend still uses it. The same can't be said of SWTOR. All the cnahges and RNG and grind just seems so pointless. Been there done that. I'm all out of Fs to give I guess. I'll lurk and read reviews come release but my hopes aren't high.
I'm in a similar position, though I believe I have 14 days left to decide what to do. If I do let it lapse, it will be the first time in more than 5.5 years I've been without a six month subscription. I'm thinking I may come back in January or February with a one month subscription to play through the story, but that would be it until more is released.

damonskye's Avatar


damonskye
09.11.2019 , 04:09 PM | #242
I have to say, I've read this whole thread and I still cannot figure out why in the world people aren't happy.

Is there something I have yet to fully understand?

I don't do master mode operations. For me, there seems to be only two ways to get gear... the RNG in a Command Crate (I'm a level-300 CXP rank on my main), or one item a week from Ossus. Every drop in the world is usually a level 220-230 item which I'm well above.

When Onslaught comes out, every single item that drops for me in the world has the ability to be an upgrade.

I can play anything I want - do a story or vet operation, a vet or master FP, world daily quests, whatever - and get upgrades.

Musco and the others have strongly (STRONGLY) implied that getting loot will be ridiculously easy. Like, you are always going to get a ton of loot. Most of it that you don't want, you'll be able to convert into tokens to get the things you DO want. Shifting away from total vertical progression, into a horizontal one where you already have most of the loot you want but are looking for customization options, is the new normal.

I am not alone. I would hasten to bet that the VAST majority of players of this game do not do master mode operations. Go to Tython or Korriban, or the stations, any day and the numbers there dwarf the numbers of players anywhere else in the game.

So, where does this leave us?

A MMO where I can get gear I want at any time. Where the gear upgrades are a bonus at any point and I can do the content I like. In a game that, let's face it, the only reason TO get better gear is to do those very same master mode operations that people seem to be complaining aren't dropping even more loot.

What am I missing? I can't WAIT for this expansion to hit.
"Story is flavor. Content is substance. ... SWTOR needs new content. Desperately."
- KeyboardNinja.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
09.11.2019 , 04:14 PM | #243
Quote: Originally Posted by damonskye View Post
I have to say, I've read this whole thread and I still cannot figure out why in the world people aren't happy.

Is there something I have yet to fully understand?

I don't do master mode operations. For me, there seems to be only two ways to get gear... the RNG in a Command Crate (I'm a level-300 CXP rank on my main), or one item a week from Ossus. Every drop in the world is usually a level 220-230 item which I'm well above.

When Onslaught comes out, every single item that drops for me in the world has the ability to be an upgrade.

I can play anything I want - do a story or vet operation, a vet or master FP, world daily quests, whatever - and get upgrades.

Musco and the others have strongly (STRONGLY) implied that getting loot will be ridiculously easy. Like, you are always going to get a ton of loot. Most of it that you don't want, you'll be able to convert into tokens to get the things you DO want. Shifting away from total vertical progression, into a horizontal one where you already have most of the loot you want but are looking for customization options, is the new normal.

I am not alone. I would hasten to bet that the VAST majority of players of this game do not do master mode operations. Go to Tython or Korriban, or the stations, any day and the numbers there dwarf the numbers of players anywhere else in the game.

So, where does this leave us?

A MMO where I can get gear I want at any time. Where the gear upgrades are a bonus at any point and I can do the content I like. In a game that, let's face it, the only reason TO get better gear is to do those very same master mode operations that people seem to be complaining aren't dropping even more loot.

What am I missing? I can't WAIT for this expansion to hit.
This post has me second guessing my criticism of the new gearing system. But, then I remember, it's RNG based and that sucks.

Damon, do you have any issues with all of the RNG 6.0 gearing appears to be having when it comes out?
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

damonskye's Avatar


damonskye
09.11.2019 , 04:33 PM | #244
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
This post has me second guessing my criticism of the new gearing system. But, then I remember, it's RNG based and that sucks.

Damon, do you have any issues with all of the RNG 6.0 gearing appears to be having when it comes out?
I don't, because it's been apparent to me for several weeks now that they're actively taking action against RNG bad luck.

But at the same time, let's face some reality here. MMOs are about, and have always been about, a certain level of RNG. If you do raids in World of Warcraft, you know that items can drop from raid bosses, but they often don't - that's RNG. You can get up to two bonus rolls per week to protect against RNG, but even they are RNG.

SWTOR has been about a certain amount of RNG since it launched. You've NEVER been able to get guaranteed loot drops from operation bosses. Not ever. The RNG was the direct impetus for doing the boss fights, over and over again.

I would ask people to start thinking about WHY they play. Do they play only for loot increases? That's perfectly fine. and I respect that... but what happens next? What's your plan for AFTER you have the perfect gear? Do you still want to do master mode Dxun every week, or every day? What will be your reason for doing so? Be careful what you wish for... having is not always as satisfying as wanting.

My reason is, I like to actually play the game itself -- I like doing flashpoints and the stories and the daily zones. Occasionally operations (usually story mode, but that's my choice.) I like gear too. Right now, if I want any hope of getting any better gear, I literally have to get a character to 300 CXP level (or, well, Tier 4 anyway), or do Ossus. I just did my weekly Ossus stuff on my main last weekend, and got another relic... which I already had.

Until Onslaught, when it becomes much better to just play the game and enjoy it.

Anyway.

The problem I'm really having with this thread is that it's obvious the very sparsely populated development team is trying to accommodate both hardcore operation players and the rest of the player base (which, I might remind everyone, the latter far outweighs the former in terms of raw numbers) by coming up with a solution for everyone that is FAR LESS reliant on RNG than people think.

No, Musco hasn't come out and said on camera, "You will definitely get many times the amount of loot you have ever gotten before, guaranteed." But why hasn't everyone realized that's pretty much what he and the others have been implying for months? Did you see the flow chart? I did, and I got the message.

P.S. You can see from my signature I'm not a SWTOR shill. I stopped playing for a while because of the content drought. But I believe there is a group of people at BioWare who are trying to keep this game going and I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's 2019 and we're getting an expansion. Nobody thought that would ever happen again. NOBODY. I'm counting my blessings.
"Story is flavor. Content is substance. ... SWTOR needs new content. Desperately."
- KeyboardNinja.

olagatonjedi's Avatar


olagatonjedi
09.11.2019 , 04:37 PM | #245
Quote: Originally Posted by damonskye View Post
I have to say, I've read this whole thread and I still cannot figure out why in the world people aren't happy.

Is there something I have yet to fully understand?

I don't do master mode operations. For me, there seems to be only two ways to get gear... the RNG in a Command Crate (I'm a level-300 CXP rank on my main), or one item a week from Ossus. Every drop in the world is usually a level 220-230 item which I'm well above.

When Onslaught comes out, every single item that drops for me in the world has the ability to be an upgrade.

I can play anything I want - do a story or vet operation, a vet or master FP, world daily quests, whatever - and get upgrades.

Musco and the others have strongly (STRONGLY) implied that getting loot will be ridiculously easy. Like, you are always going to get a ton of loot. Most of it that you don't want, you'll be able to convert into tokens to get the things you DO want. Shifting away from total vertical progression, into a horizontal one where you already have most of the loot you want but are looking for customization options, is the new normal.

I am not alone. I would hasten to bet that the VAST majority of players of this game do not do master mode operations. Go to Tython or Korriban, or the stations, any day and the numbers there dwarf the numbers of players anywhere else in the game.

So, where does this leave us?

A MMO where I can get gear I want at any time. Where the gear upgrades are a bonus at any point and I can do the content I like. In a game that, let's face it, the only reason TO get better gear is to do those very same master mode operations that people seem to be complaining aren't dropping even more loot.

What am I missing? I can't WAIT for this expansion to hit.
Someone gets it!

Darev's Avatar


Darev
09.11.2019 , 05:02 PM | #246
Quote: Originally Posted by damonskye View Post
I have to say, I've read this whole thread and I still cannot figure out why in the world people aren't happy.

Is there something I have yet to fully understand?

I don't do master mode operations. For me, there seems to be only two ways to get gear... the RNG in a Command Crate (I'm a level-300 CXP rank on my main), or one item a week from Ossus. Every drop in the world is usually a level 220-230 item which I'm well above.

***There is another way. You can use unassembled components (UCs) which you get from deconstructing items from command crates. You can use those to buy very specific 236 gear for whichever slot/character/spec you want. Absolutely ZERO RNG involved. When you get a 236 piece you save up more UCs and get a 242 piece from the same vendor…and so on to 248. Again, absolutely no RNG involved.***

***Operation bosses drop tokens. Specific bosses drop specific tokens when you can take to a different vendor from above and turn them in for 236/242/248 gear. Again, no RNG involved***

***The weekly 252 reward is RNG, but directed RNG (I made up a name). You can choose 1 of 3 boxes. Each box has the chance to drop specific items that match your current spec when you open the box. Arsenal Merc – you get DPS gear. Bodyguard – you get healer gear. You want a gun, you pick the box that gives you a chance at getting a gun. It’s a 1 out of 5 chance instead of a 1 out of 14 chance. It’s going to match your spec, instead of being a gun that could be used by any other spec. Directed RNG toward your toon.***

***The RNG on PTS is not “Directed” to your toon at all (except for the recent change on ONE of the two vendors). All world drops, all boss drops, are not “Directed” RNG toward your toon like we currently have on live.***

When Onslaught comes out, every single item that drops for me in the world has the ability to be an upgrade.

***Every single item that drops for you in the world does have a CHANCE to be an upgrade for you. If you are on an Arsenal Merc you might get a drop for a Powertech tank, or a healer, or a commando…right now on PTS “upgrades” are defined by item rating for world drops. Maybe that changes down the road, maybe it doesn’t.***

I can play anything I want - do a story or vet operation, a vet or master FP, world daily quests, whatever - and get upgrades.
***Sure, you CAN get upgrades from RNG….but maybe not upgrades for the character you’re playing. And all those legacy shareable drops that you can send to your alts…have fun vendoring or deconstructing them. You won’t be able to sell them on the GTN. You won’t be able to buy the ones that other people might not need, but you may, because they’re legacy bound.***


Musco and the others have strongly (STRONGLY) implied that getting loot will be ridiculously easy. Like, you are always going to get a ton of loot. Most of it that you don't want, you'll be able to convert into tokens to get the things you DO want. Shifting away from total vertical progression, into a horizontal one where you already have most of the loot you want but are looking for customization options, is the new normal.

***I tend to comment on what I see, not what is promised. What I see on PTS is random world drops occur FAR less than live right now. Seriously. Run CZ198 and any 10 heroics on live. Then do the same thing on PTS and compare the frequency of gear drops. I have, it isn’t the same. Not even close.***




I am not alone. I would hasten to bet that the VAST majority of players of this game do not do master mode operations. Go to Tython or Korriban, or the stations, any day and the numbers there dwarf the numbers of players anywhere else in the game.

So, where does this leave us?

A MMO where I can get gear I want at any time. Where the gear upgrades are a bonus at any point and I can do the content I like. In a game that, let's face it, the only reason TO get better gear is to do those very same master mode operations that people seem to be complaining aren't dropping even more loot.

What am I missing? I can't WAIT for this expansion to hit.
What you’re missing, I’ve added into the quote. I bolded your questions and then replied to them.
If you choose to fight in the sewer you can no longer claim to have the moral high ground.

Darev's Avatar


Darev
09.11.2019 , 05:04 PM | #247
Quote: Originally Posted by damonskye View Post
I don't, because it's been apparent to me for several weeks now that they're actively taking action against RNG bad luck.

But at the same time, let's face some reality here. MMOs are about, and have always been about, a certain level of RNG. If you do raids in World of Warcraft, you know that items can drop from raid bosses, but they often don't - that's RNG. You can get up to two bonus rolls per week to protect against RNG, but even they are RNG.

SWTOR has been about a certain amount of RNG since it launched. You've NEVER been able to get guaranteed loot drops from operation bosses. Not ever. The RNG was the direct impetus for doing the boss fights, over and over again.

I would ask people to start thinking about WHY they play. Do they play only for loot increases? That's perfectly fine. and I respect that... but what happens next? What's your plan for AFTER you have the perfect gear? Do you still want to do master mode Dxun every week, or every day? What will be your reason for doing so? Be careful what you wish for... having is not always as satisfying as wanting.

My reason is, I like to actually play the game itself -- I like doing flashpoints and the stories and the daily zones. Occasionally operations (usually story mode, but that's my choice.) I like gear too. Right now, if I want any hope of getting any better gear, I literally have to get a character to 300 CXP level (or, well, Tier 4 anyway), or do Ossus. I just did my weekly Ossus stuff on my main last weekend, and got another relic... which I already had.

Until Onslaught, when it becomes much better to just play the game and enjoy it.

Anyway.

The problem I'm really having with this thread is that it's obvious the very sparsely populated development team is trying to accommodate both hardcore operation players and the rest of the player base (which, I might remind everyone, the latter far outweighs the former in terms of raw numbers) by coming up with a solution for everyone that is FAR LESS reliant on RNG than people think.

No, Musco hasn't come out and said on camera, "You will definitely get many times the amount of loot you have ever gotten before, guaranteed." But why hasn't everyone realized that's pretty much what he and the others have been implying for months? Did you see the flow chart? I did, and I got the message.

P.S. You can see from my signature I'm not a SWTOR shill. I stopped playing for a while because of the content drought. But I believe there is a group of people at BioWare who are trying to keep this game going and I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. It's 2019 and we're getting an expansion. Nobody thought that would ever happen again. NOBODY. I'm counting my blessings.
You realize that with the system that's on PTS right now you could get 10 relics in a row from world drops, and 9 of them COULD be for tanks (if you play dps)
If you choose to fight in the sewer you can no longer claim to have the moral high ground.

damonskye's Avatar


damonskye
09.11.2019 , 05:15 PM | #248
Quote: Originally Posted by Darev View Post
What you’re missing, I’ve added into the quote. I bolded your questions and then replied to them.
Fair enough, and I agree that the unassembled components and operation boss tokens and "directed RNG" are fair points. They are not really things that are obvious to me as one of the majority of players who don't do veteran/master operations, so you'll understand why they aren't immediately part of my discussion. And I'm not on the PTS so I don't see these random world drops, and how much or little they occur.

But... I stand by everything I said. For several reasons:

One, because they are still testing and actively seeking feedback about the drop rates, along with many other topics, and how the trade ins from whatever the Chuck Bucks are. That to me is an indication that they are working with the numbers to hit a sweet spot, and I don't have any reason to doubt them on this topic.

Two, Musco (I think it was him) said that people getting nothing in renown crates is a bug being fixed. Renown is a supplementary system that will likely bridge some of that gap, or so they've said.

And three, I still go back to my point: once you fill up all your slots with the best possible gear, what's your next step? I'm not being disingenuous, I respect your criticism. But I do wonder what would be the reason you'd want everything perfect because playing the game with nothing left to look forward to is, to me, depressing.

As for "Every single item that drops for you in the world does have a CHANCE to be an upgrade for you," I still think that if every single drop was DEFINITELY going to be an upgrade for me, the game would get very boring. Opening your Christmas stocking every day, every year, would get very boring.

For "Sure, you CAN get upgrades from RNG….but maybe not upgrades for the character you’re playing," that sounds fantastic to me. I like playing lots of characters. Your mlieage may vary.

I get some of the criticism, but I think people are being far too harsh. This is not the end of the world. This is better than Galactic Command. I think a lot of the concerns will melt away when it goes live, except for the "I killed Boss X, I want my required obligatory super lightsaber right now" people. I don't get that at all.
"Story is flavor. Content is substance. ... SWTOR needs new content. Desperately."
- KeyboardNinja.

Darev's Avatar


Darev
09.11.2019 , 05:21 PM | #249
Quote: Originally Posted by damonskye View Post
Fair enough, and I agree that the unassembled components and operation boss tokens and "directed RNG" are fair points. They are not really things that are obvious to me as one of the majority of players who don't do veteran/master operations, so you'll understand why they aren't immediately part of my discussion. And I'm not on the PTS so I don't see these random world drops, and how much or little they occur.

But... I stand by everything I said. For several reasons:

One, because they are still testing and actively seeking feedback about the drop rates, along with many other topics, and how the trade ins from whatever the Chuck Bucks are. That to me is an indication that they are working with the numbers to hit a sweet spot, and I don't have any reason to doubt them on this topic.

Two, Musco (I think it was him) said that people getting nothing in renown crates is a bug being fixed. Renown is a supplementary system that will likely bridge some of that gap, or so they've said.

And three, I still go back to my point: once you fill up all your slots with the best possible gear, what's your next step? I'm not being disingenuous, I respect your criticism. But I do wonder what would be the reason you'd want everything perfect because playing the game with nothing left to look forward to is, to me, depressing.

As for "Every single item that drops for you in the world does have a CHANCE to be an upgrade for you," I still think that if every single drop was DEFINITELY going to be an upgrade for me, the game would get very boring. Opening your Christmas stocking every day, every year, would get very boring.

For "Sure, you CAN get upgrades from RNG….but maybe not upgrades for the character you’re playing," that sounds fantastic to me. I like playing lots of characters. Your mlieage may vary.

I get some of the criticism, but I think people are being far too harsh. This is not the end of the world. This is better than Galactic Command. I think a lot of the concerns will melt away when it goes live, except for the "I killed Boss X, I want my required obligatory super lightsaber right now" people. I don't get that at all.
It sounds like we have similar play styles. I have two accounts and roughly 140 toons on Star Forge (from server merges...I made 20+ toons on as many servers as I could when there were more servers) but this current version of gearing on PTS is a nightmare to me.

Imagine your loot chances the same as the magic candy box from the first Harry Potter movie. You could get any flavor in the world, including Ear Wax. Now imagine having really bad RNG streaks and getting Ear Was / Vomit / etc before you got chocolate. I want to be able to pay my $.25 and buy chocolate on at least ONE shop. It doesn't have to be the ONLY shop, but please, at least one shop.
If you choose to fight in the sewer you can no longer claim to have the moral high ground.

damonskye's Avatar


damonskye
09.11.2019 , 06:10 PM | #250
Quote: Originally Posted by Darev View Post
It sounds like we have similar play styles. I have two accounts and roughly 140 toons on Star Forge (from server merges...I made 20+ toons on as many servers as I could when there were more servers) but this current version of gearing on PTS is a nightmare to me.

Imagine your loot chances the same as the magic candy box from the first Harry Potter movie. You could get any flavor in the world, including Ear Wax. Now imagine having really bad RNG streaks and getting Ear Was / Vomit / etc before you got chocolate. I want to be able to pay my $.25 and buy chocolate on at least ONE shop. It doesn't have to be the ONLY shop, but please, at least one shop.
That's fair, and I can't disagree with you. But I do think the developers really ARE moving toward the middle on this. I don't want everything to be completely reliant upon RNG, but at the same time, I fully acknowledge that RNG *must* be part of the equation... otherwise, every single loot drop will be the best flavor candy, and that gets incredibly boring, very quickly.

I keep going back to the flow chart. If it's working properly, increased loot drops plus renown crates plus crafting and other methods of acquisition plus deconstruction and chuck bucks... all of that should be a noticeable improvement on the current system. If it's not, it's a failure... but I really do believe they're putting enough attention into it so that it won't fail. I've been in betas and public test realms in other games, and I've seen developers learn from their mistakes FAR more than fail.
"Story is flavor. Content is substance. ... SWTOR needs new content. Desperately."
- KeyboardNinja.