I know bioware is currently planning to nerf fury but i personally am not sure they should, the melee classes in a thread made by bioware last year are spouse to out preform in the dps department compared to range classes, based on there class balance target dps system, however the other reason i question this nerf is damage is the only spec options for a mara no tank and no heals so shouldnt they have the right to out dps the other classes if they cant throw out any heals or taunts, and lastly mara even when speced as fury can be beat, ive seen it done by sins, mercs, and juggs, I would like other peoples opinions on this

I know bioware is currently planning to nerf fury but i personally am not sure they should, the melee classes in a thread made by bioware last year are spouse to out preform in the dps department compared to range classes, based on there class balance target dps system, however the other reason i question this nerf is damage is the only spec options for a mara no tank and no heals so shouldnt they have the right to out dps the other classes if they cant throw out any heals or taunts, and lastly mara even when speced as fury can be beat, ive seen it done by sins, mercs, and juggs, I would like other peoples opinions on this

 

equal players, equal skill, equal conditions, equal gear, will never outparse fury - its designed like that atm.

 

fury is outperforming annihilation, which it shouldnt. fix your game please bw. how rude of you!

 

I know bioware is currently planning to nerf fury

source?

First, there is no 100% info about what they are nerfing and if they are nerfing anything at all.

 

Second, Fury should absolutely be nerfed. It's not marauder's sustain DPS spec. Annihilation is. Fury is actually the only burst spec in the top 5-ish DPS specs. It's not ok, it should be brought down. And even if they do it, marauder will still be perfectly fine - people will just play Annihilation more. Anni by itself is perfectly good for most fights, if they nerf Fury, mara will still have a place in the meta. And it's not like they gotta kill Fury (sadly with nerfs they often overdo it but we'll see), even after nerfs it can still stay on a level of like, Deception.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Equeliber

make Ferocity and auto ability for marauder.

Fixed

EZ

First, there is no 100% info about what they are nerfing and if they are nerfing anything at all.

 

Second, Fury should absolutely be nerfed. It's not marauder's sustain DPS spec. Annihilation is. Fury is actually the only burst spec in the top 5-ish DPS specs. It's not ok, it should be brought down. And even if they do it, marauder will still be perfectly fine - people will just play Annihilation more. Anni by itself is perfectly good for most fights, if they nerf Fury, mara will still have a place in the meta. And it's not like they gotta kill Fury (sadly with nerfs they often overdo it but we'll see), even after nerfs it can still stay on a level of like, Deception.

 

They 100% shouldn't nerf fury... or anything.

 

THey 100^% should nerf what they haven't nerfed since 5.0 came out. THose I win classes that you see dozens of them in every warzone and can basically self heal into oblivion despite being a dps class.

 

Deception is garabage after nerfs in this ranged meta. It's a meh spec... Marauder has been over nerfed already and has one good PVP Spec.

 

I always cringe at people asking for nerfs when they haven't got a clue about how other classes perform. And don't think about the consesquence.. At this point they'd have to either buff Anni..... If they nerf fury to be below Anni that would remove Marauders from the meta. No one plays Anni or Carnage because they aren't very good after being over nerfed because kiddo's couldn't handle a class with 3 viable specs for PVP.

They 100% shouldn't nerf fury... or anything.

 

THey 100^% should nerf what they haven't nerfed since 5.0 came out. THose I win classes that you see dozens of them in every warzone and can basically self heal into oblivion despite being a dps class.

 

Deception is garabage after nerfs in this ranged meta. It's a meh spec... Marauder has been over nerfed already and has one good PVP Spec.

 

I always cringe at people asking for nerfs when they haven't got a clue about how other classes perform. And don't think about the consesquence.. At this point they'd have to either buff Anni..... If they nerf fury to be below Anni that would remove Marauders from the meta. No one plays Anni or Carnage because they aren't very good after being over nerfed because kiddo's couldn't handle a class with 3 viable specs for PVP.

 

I am talking about purely DPS nerfs. If Fury loses like 400-500 DPS, it won't change anything in PvP. But in PvE it will Anni more desirable. And playing Carnage won't feel that bad.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Equeliber

I am talking about purely DPS nerfs. If Fury loses like 400-500 DPS, it won't change anything in PvP. But in PvE it will Anni more desirable. And playing Carnage won't feel that bad.

 

I agree... if you're talking about PVE then they should buff Anni and carnage to what they were. Those nerfs were totally unneeded.. Same goes for Deception.

I'm just sitting here wondering why Fury has Bloody Slashes as its lv68 passive (which seems to basically be Deadly Saber but passive and slightly better), while Anni has pitiful 4.5 sec of 3% increased bleed damage.

 

Give Bloody Slashes/some variation to Anni, give Fury something else.

I agree... if you're talking about PVE then they should buff Anni and carnage to what they were. Those nerfs were totally unneeded.. Same goes for Deception.

 

Don't think you played back before carnage was nerfed, having the marauder burst spec also having the best sustain DPS didn't make any sense then and it doesn't make any sense to change it back.

I'm just sitting here wondering why Fury has Bloody Slashes as its lv68 passive (which seems to basically be Deadly Saber but passive and slightly better), while Anni has pitiful 4.5 sec of 3% increased bleed damage.

 

Give Bloody Slashes/some variation to Anni, give Fury something else.

bloody slashes was in the carnage discipline pre 5.0, don't know why they changed that lol.

from a personal perspective its more about dps/effort than dps vs. other specs.

 

i play both anni and fury right now and i feel like annis rotation/priority-sytem is way harder than furys straight forward rotation.

only downside of fury is ressource management.

 

the harder the rotation and more apm you need to get the most out of any spec, the higher its damage should be compared to other specs.

 

imho anni is by far one of the most challenging rotations in the game besides operatives and IO mercs. it should parse accordingly.

 

which doenst mean they should nef fury. they just should buff anni, otherwise they should nerf more specs than just fury to maintain balance (juggs dot i-randomly-smash-buttons-and-still-parse-10-k spec i.e.)

Anni does not need a buff, or if it does, it would have to be a very minor one; it's easily one of the highest performing specs in NiM ops - alongside pyrotech, lethality, vengeance, and perhaps a few other specs in certain situations. It's more than capable of lighting up the scoreboard in PvP as well. It just has a skill cap on par with IO and Pyro, so you don't really see it used as much.

 

Fury's performance on a dummy doesn't translate very well to actual nightmare-tier operations; Anni and Carnage are both higher performing in raid, as it should be. Fury only needs one change, and it's for PvP: the cc immunity should be made a bit more salient to encourage better counterplay.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Hoppinswtor

Anni does not need a buff, or if it does, it would have to be a very minor one; it's easily one of the highest performing specs in NiM ops - alongside pyrotech, lethality, vengeance, and perhaps a few other specs in certain situations. It's more than capable of lighting up the scoreboard in PvP as well. It just has a skill cap on par with IO and Pyro, so you don't really see it used as much.

 

thats what i´m talking about. it requieres much more skill or atleast APM to reach the same numbers with anni as with vengeance or fury i.e. so let it deal damage accordingly. IO obvsly shouldnt parse on par with melee specs allhough its rotation is pretty hard as well. not to mention the reflects of both, veng and IO which outparse any other dd in certain fights.

 

Fury's performance on a dummy doesn't translate very well to actual nightmare-tier operations; Anni and Carnage are both higher performing in raid, as it should be. Fury only needs one change, and it's for PvP: the cc immunity should be made a bit more salient to encourage better counterplay.

 

why shouldnt it translate well? it should even work better in any boss fight since it itsnt affected by downtimes or phase transitions during a fight. anni needs ~30secs to reach its full potential everytime you lose uptime for more than 30secs (best case, assuming you just used annihilate). there are many fights were you actualy do have these 20-30sec breaks waiting for the next phase to start (brontes, izax, revan, m&b, tfb). and some of the challenges dont even last more than 30secs to give anni the chance to catch up in dps with other specs.

fury can just continue its rotatation and as long as the relocation of obliterate doesnt interfere with mechanics(revan) it should be totaly fine.

 

still, not saying veng or fury need a nerf. that would just lead to another chain reaction where you gotta nerf some of the burst specs to keep balance. but if you buff anni for 100-200dps, it would be just fair (cant talk about pyro or lethality and how hard their rotations actualy are, so i thought i put anni up there with these two, maybe it needs even more buff)

Edited November 20, 2018 by mrphstar

the harder the rotation and more apm you need to get the most out of any spec, the higher its damage should be compared to other specs.

 

The rotation difficulty should play a very minor role in DPS. What if you make a class with crazy hard rotation, but godlike DCD ? I'll be pretty broken if it has the best DPS of the game. DCD, mobility, raid utility, passive defense, ranged vs melee and dot vs burst should all play a bigger role than rotation difficulty.

Edited November 20, 2018 by LudhaninRolgge

why shouldnt it translate well? it should even work better in any boss fight since it itsnt affected by downtimes or phase transitions during a fight. anni needs ~30secs to reach its full potential everytime you lose uptime for more than 30secs (best case, assuming you just used annihilate). there are many fights were you actualy do have these 20-30sec breaks waiting for the next phase to start (brontes, izax, revan, m&b, tfb). and some of the challenges dont even last more than 30secs to give anni the chance to catch up in dps with other specs.

fury can just continue its rotatation and as long as the relocation of obliterate doesnt interfere with mechanics(revan) it should be totaly fine.

 

still, not saying veng or fury need a nerf. that would just lead to another chain reaction where you gotta nerf some of the burst specs to keep balance. but if you buff anni for 100-200dps, it would be just fair (cant talk about pyro or lethality and how hard their rotations actualy are, so i thought i put anni up there with these two, maybe it needs even more buff)

 

First of all two of the fights you mentioned with downtime fury will kill itself or loose massive dps to survive in.

 

Second in all those fights you have 0 issues keeping up dps as anni and keeping you rotation going, except for Izax the downtime is very minimal to you. Brontes you can keep your stacks up by hitting reaches (which you can do if h know how to move while dpsing). Izax fair point you’ll loose dps but after that gap you don’t need your stacks. You will get 8 or 9 gcds off before you simply stand there and look pretty, this is the same for all dps. Revan you have plenty of time to build your rotation back so it’s not a big issue. MB you can hit blaster to keep your stacks up throughout the entire fight, but carnage is better for thieves fight. TFB you almost never have downtime to loose your stacks.

Do we really need to have this discussion again, and even worse, have people write wall-of-text paragraphs built on assumptions regarding how developers balance classes, that we know are incorrect? The devs have their system of DPS rankings based on specs and if they are sustained mDPS, hybrid mDPS, sustained rDPS/burst mDPS etc. etc, can we just base arguments on that instead of anecdotal nonsense like what spec you personally find most difficult to play... Edited November 21, 2018 by RikuvonDrake

The rotation difficulty should play a very minor role in DPS. What if you make a class with crazy hard rotation, but godlike DCD ? I'll be pretty broken if it has the best DPS of the game. DCD, mobility, raid utility, passive defense, ranged vs melee and dot vs burst should all play a bigger role than rotation difficulty.

 

nobody said you shouldnt take DCDs into account when balancing classes. but since both specs we were talking about have (almost) the same DCDs, i didnt take that into account.

 

so whats left is the difficulty of the rotation. and i think we can all agree, that annis rotation is much harder than furys.

 

First of all two of the fights you mentioned with downtime fury will kill itself or loose massive dps to survive in.

 

Second in all those fights you have 0 issues keeping up dps as anni and keeping you rotation going, except for Izax the downtime is very minimal to you. Brontes you can keep your stacks up by hitting reaches (which you can do if h know how to move while dpsing). Izax fair point you’ll loose dps but after that gap you don’t need your stacks. You will get 8 or 9 gcds off before you simply stand there and look pretty, this is the same for all dps. Revan you have plenty of time to build your rotation back so it’s not a big issue. MB you can hit blaster to keep your stacks up throughout the entire fight, but carnage is better for thieves fight. TFB you almost never have downtime to loose your stacks.

 

first of all, when talking about downtimes, i talked about anni. that fury is bad for revan, espacily at the core should be clear at that point. that doesnt make anni better for the rest of the fight, since it loses its stacks multiple times (atleast 2). i dont know which of the other fights fury would kill itself or lose dps, but feel free to enlighten me. if we are talking about m&B, cuz of mines etc, im sorry to bust your bubble, but fury does well in this fight. you just have to be precise with positioning before you use obliterate. in TFB there is atleast one downtime between outer and inner phase, which is long enough to lose stacks. and the tentacle fights arent long enough for anni to compensate for being forced to start with the opener again.

 

Do we really need to have this discussion again, and even worse, have people write wall-of-text paragraphs built on assumptions regarding how developers balance classes, that we know are incorrect? The devs have their system of DPS rankings based on specs and if they are sustained mDPS, hybrid mDPS, sustained rDPS/burst mDPS etc. etc, can we just base arguments on that instead of anecdotal nonsense like what spec you personally find most difficult to play...

 

we are talking about how it SHOULD work, not how BW actualy does their balancing. thats subjective right, but its a forum to discuss such things.

 

but again, its not a "personal feeling" when is say anni is harder than fury.

 

you just have to take a look at the APM, the number of GCDs you need for one full cycle, the number of diffrent skills used, the ressource management and rng for proccs.

APM: anni ~54 vs. fury ~51

number of GCDs per rotation: 24 vs. 12

number of skills: 9 vs. 9

ressource management: annis rng based resource gain from dots vs. furys fixed rebuild every 12 GCDs

rng/proccs: annis dual saber throw is rng based. furys proccs are based on usage of other skills

 

in which world is that subjective?

Edited November 22, 2018 by mrphstar

The strategy and basis for which BW is currently 'balancing' classes "devs have their system of DPS rankings based on specs and if they are sustained mDPS, hybrid mDPS, sustained rDPS/burst mDPS etc. etc"

 

It's inherently flawed. You cannot get 'balance' using their system, because while the premise may be sound in theory , some of the specs themselves don't adhere to those characteristics that are typically associated in respect of spec types [categories]. You have sustained specs with burst level attack damage on some attacks, you have burst specs that have dots, and you have the rediuclous "quasi" class that they literally just made up [officially] for mechanical purposes . Not to object to the "quasi" type spec classification, just the way they implemented it. Even Bant himself, who's to this day we are still basing optimal class/specs builds equations on. Here's the original quotation -

 

 

Side Bar:

There is very little difference between Burst and Sustained in SWTOR. All of the DoT classes rely more on Big Hitting moves than they do DoTs and the Burst DPS have all been toned down to the point where most of their moves do same damage. The biggest difference between Burst and DoTs is not sustained damage, its ability to change targets quickly vs setup time. But there are very few fights that require a target to be killed in less than 10 GCDs which lets all of the DoT classes to stand equal to the Burst classes (and the DoT Application is already factored into the DPS for those classes).

 

Furthermore, where in you compare specs of the same spec types in this game, the order in which each classes in said spec type is assigned which is arbitrarily.

 

You will never get fair and decent balance using the current paradigm BW employs. [5.X]

 

The only way you get some semblance of balance is by studying the specs on an individual bases, to examine and weigh all that the spec brings with it [including off role-abilities being used off role.]. In my estimation I think 4.0 was a very good example of this overall.

 

Currently they do not take into account anything to do with DCDs, Healing, mobility, CC and anti-CC abilities, Pure DPS/Hybrid DPS [in my opinion 'pure dps specs' and 'hybrid dps specs are a valid consideration but not in any extreme sense], buffs, rotation difficulty and off-role abilities .

 

Heal to DPS ratios are also a notable issue IMO currently. That's why you seeing people who had the highest damage output also healing in excess to of a million at times in PVP scoreboards while other classes with far less heals than they compete with them [kill]. Heals are the natural counterbalance to DPS. While DCDs are relevant, heals are even more so, most classes having both. DPS takes health away, heals put health back.

 

Sustained specs shouldn't be dropping 25-30k bombs [single attack] while also having put multiple bleeds going at the same time. It doesn't matter what they have determined to constitute spec types for their 'class balance stratagem if they are only that in name because they are not functioning as such on a mechanical level.

 

You take everything into account on a spec by spec basis and use that as at least in part in considerations of spec comparisons. But, being realistic, you will never make everyone happy even if it's more fair and balanced overall. - As I see it though, many people don't want 'fair', not really, unfortunately some only want what's best for themselves.

Edited November 22, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

nobody said you shouldnt take DCDs into account when balancing classes. but since both specs we were talking about have (almost) the same DCDs, i didnt take that into account.

 

so whats left is the difficulty of the rotation. and i think we can all agree, that annis rotation is much harder than furys.

 

You didn't read everything I wrote, did you ?

on which particular pve boss encounter will fury maras have more dps than anni maras? ok i got it. the all mighty fearsome operation dummy...the ****** of all nim bosses.

on which particular pve boss encounter will fury maras have more dps than anni maras? ok i got it. the all mighty fearsome operation dummy...the ****** of all nim bosses.

 

tell me, how wouldnt a dummy parse not translate into a single target boss fight, if you can keep max. uptime?

other than bosses with adds or more than one target in spread range, fury should and will perform better than anni.

none of them got signifcant bonuses from getting damage, either (atleast none the other doesnt have).

 

dont know what your fury maras are doing, but if you are telling me furys dps get lower just because we got a moving target now, thats simply wrong.

Edited November 24, 2018 by mrphstar

tell me, how wouldnt a dummy parse not translate into a single target boss fight, if you can keep max. uptime?

other than bosses with adds or more than one target in spread range, fury should and will perform better than anni.

none of them got signifcant bonuses from getting damage, either (atleast none the other doesnt have).

 

dont know what your fury maras are doing, but if you are telling me furys dps get lower just because we got a moving target now, thats simply wrong.

 

The problems with fury that make its dps lower on most bosses are 2 things. The first issue is obliterate because it repositions you and locks you from moving anywhere else. On bosses that move, especially smaller faster moving ones, you cannot always move with the boss and will lose a gcd or 2 depending on how far the boss moves. Brontes burn is a pretty big culprit for this (though fury can still possibly do well there depending on how many knockback you resist). The reason this is an issue is because you cannot move with the boss like other specs. Sure for a couple specs you could stand in front of where the boss is moving, but that can’t be done for all fights if there is a frontal aoe or you can’t because of positioning requirements. Obliterate’s repositioning can also be very punishing for bosses that require strict positioning. Nothing quite like obliterating into fire on tyrans or a pin on nahut.

 

The second issue is how strict most of the rotation is. Often times when you lose a gcd to the reasons above or other reasons that are melee or mechanic specific. For other specs like anni, they can just start back up with their priority system so their main abilities coming off cd faster means they can use it sooner. For fury, you can’t just skip abilities because your main hits are off cd sooner. If I get interrupted between raging burst and furious strike, I can’t just use raging burst several gcd’s earlier or else I could seriously mess up the rotation. Doing stuff like that can mess up the amount of rage you have which is very punishing (fury is less important in ops since you usually get plenty extra).

 

Overall I think fury is in a rather balanced state, I think it should be one of the higher dummy parsing specs because of how much its dps falls off in fights compared to other specs. There’s a reason why you don’t see Fury parses at the top of the leaderboards for ops bosses and it’s not because nobody plays it. I’d still play anni for sustained fights and carnage for burst fights, but fury is still very good for burst fights (I just personally prefer carnage), and fury still puts out enough plenty enough for sustained fights. The best mara pvp spec for dps (I think their dps is fine for pvp, it’s just all the mara dcd’s plus fury cc immunity makes it a bit over the top) plus being plenty viable for ops makes fury dps in a pretty good state. If they just changed obliterate to not move you if under 4m like how low slash is different in melee range, I think fury would become a lot more preferable.

Edited November 24, 2018 by shyroman

ok, i see the problem now.

you are following these dulfy/vulkk guides and their rotation.

 

ever thought about adjusting the rotation just a lil bit, so you always got "ranged" attacks after obliterate? thought so...

you can swap skills within the rotation so theres always a force scream or raging burst after obliterate to use as gap closer, without breaking the ressoource management. only problem is, you gotta start and keep this "new" sequence for the whole fight. first problem solved.

 

second problem isnt realy a problem. if there is no priority system, you dont have to follow it. in contrast to DoT specs you dont have to reapply your DoTs to hold them on cooldown. you can use any ability at any time, as long as you use them once (twiche for raging burst etc.) in a sequence. and theres no such fight that has a tiny window where it would only allow you to get 2 or 3 GCDs in.

 

futher more, obliterate gives you an additional gap closer without losing dps, no other melee class can do that (since shadow step got suffered from the GCD nerf recently). so there are atleast the same amount of pros as cons for obliterate. theres exactly one fight where fury is realy bad, thats revan, cuz you get punished for cahrging at the core. you can compensate the relocation of obliterate in every other fight, if played correctly.

 

if we are talking about fights like brontes where you suffer from multiple knockbacks reducing your uptime, thats a problem for EVERY class, not just fury. so no valid point here.

Edited November 24, 2018 by mrphstar

I mean I'd love to see someone push the limits of fury and do as much or more dps than anni (and somewhat carnage for moving bosses), but in my experience in nim ops, both anni and carnage give a lot more rotational flexibility and consistently do more dps. I'm not just theorycrafting that in my head, that's my experience from playing it and talking with other who have played it in nim ops. If you or someone you know can do that, I'd love to see it (not saying this sarcastically, I genuinely mean it). Even players that I know that are very good at fury will consistently do more dps in the other specs. Yes you can move around abilities, but the optimal rotation is extremely rigid, and deviating from that a lot significantly decreases dps, this goes for all specs, it's just that fury is one of the most punished by it. Edited November 25, 2018 by shyroman