Did you read the entirety of the post? How often do you press spacebar? Do you feel there's anything problematic with the way some of the Empire quest lines are handled given it's T for Teen rating?

 

perpetuating age old chauvinistic view of female characters, aiding in slave trades, verifying race purity, sexually abusing a companion who genuinely just wants to help you.

 

Why does it seem like developers go out of there way to make games unfriendly to women? My girlfriend was literally sickened by it

 

--and yes she agreed that under the circumstance of a more intelligent, well developed scene the actions could be made justifiably, but as they stand it's just gross. Certainly worthy of an M rating and not fitting the Pixar vibe you get for the other odd half of the content.

How is shocking Vette sexual abuse? How is it sexual in any way? You are giving her an electric shock for mouthing off, you could just as easily slap her and that would not be constued as sexual abuse, just abuse. She is a slave, I personally treat her rather well but dominating and abusing people is what Sith do, that should not be unexpected.

I also do not think this game should have an M rating, any teen is capable of handling this content, I played worse games when I was 8-10 years old and I see no problems with that for one simple reason, I can separate fantasy from reality.

Personally, in relation to the claims of sexism, I've gotta say I found the way my Warrior could treat Quinn and how he subsequently responded to be a whole lot worse than how she could treat Vette. I have to take the collar off to make any progress with Vette's story, she would say something negative if I was being cruel to her, etc., but Quinn? I ended up married to the guy I frequently sexually harassed when he clearly was uncomfortable with it, threw into a wall and force choked, constantly held one mistake over his head and asserted my dominance and superiority at every turn, all to which he replied something along the lines of "yes, my Lord, you absolutely have the right to do whatever you like with me, I'll do my best to please you above all else." Pretty classic abusive relationship there; I don't know if it's as bad with Vette, not having gotten as far with my male Warrior yet, but her personality at least doesn't seem as likely to put up with as much, thus far.

Oh, but that's ok, because it's female on male. It never bothers anyone. Ever. If anything, people consider it funny. But switch those roles around and it instantly becomes inappropriate and triggers a ton of concerned people like the OP here.

Hi!

I'd like to thank shampoo for his wonderful post. I myself am proof that he is 100% correct.

I am 16 years old and played a sith warrior for a few days. After I was forced to repeatedly sexually abuse and cause harm to my female companion in game, I realized that this is the exact way I am supposed to treat all females in real life. As we all know, games are exact representations of all things in real life.

Since then, I went out and put a shock collar on the first woman I saw and repeatedly pressed the shock button. I'm so glad SWTOR taught me that I should be aroused by this, or else I'd have possibly had some sort of moral opposition to electrocuting another person.

I don't know why, but someone called the police on me. It was confusing to me why the cop didn't understand when I told him "it's ok, because they do this in star wars."

/sigh

If only the ESRB had labeled this game as mature, I obviously would have never even played it then. Now my life is ruined. I have no idea how to make any moral decisions in life, and everyone thinks I'm evil. I guess on the bright side, maybe someone will come end my miserable existance with a laser blaster. I know a lot of people tried to kill me with those as I was playing my sith.

Beware this game, it will end the world as we know it!

In good versus evil, the evil side are...evil.

In other news, grass is green.

Hi!

 

I'd like to thank shampoo for his wonderful post. I myself am proof that he is 100% correct.

 

I am 16 years old and played a sith warrior for a few days. After I was forced to repeatedly sexually abuse and cause harm to my female companion in game, I realized that this is the exact way I am supposed to treat all females in real life. As we all know, games are exact representations of all things in real life.

 

Since then, I went out and put a shock collar on the first woman I saw and repeatedly pressed the shock button. I'm so glad SWTOR taught me that I should be aroused by this, or else I'd have possibly had some sort of moral opposition to electrocuting another person.

 

I don't know why, but someone called the police on me. It was confusing to me why the cop didn't understand when I told him "it's ok, because they do this in star wars."

 

/sigh

 

If only the ESRB had labeled this game as mature, I obviously would have never even played it then. Now my life is ruined. I have no idea how to make any moral decisions in life, and everyone thinks I'm evil. I guess on the bright side, maybe someone will come end my miserable existance with a laser blaster. I know a lot of people tried to kill me with those as I was playing my sith.

 

Beware this game, it will end the world as we know it!

There will be a substantial reward for anyone finding this perpetrator. You are free to use any methods nessesary, but I want him alive.

NO DESINTEGRATIONS.

I never encountered any "sexual violence" or anything of the sort towards Vette at all. In fact, I wasn't given the option to flirt with her until my class quest on Tatooine. I didn't just "give her gifts until she married me", I leveled up her affection through conversation choices, mostly bilking people for credits. I don't know what game you played, but I was able to actually treat Vette with respect and still reach Dark V. And I never even shocked her but one time. I took the collar off the moment she asked me to.

As was said, you're a Sith. You're supposed to be pure evil.

Quick question -- is the OP a man? Because if they are, that brings the whole 'gender equality' argument to a screeching halt, because here we have a man telling us women what is and isn't appropriate for us. That's white-knighting for us Poor Oppressed Women Who Need A Man To Tell Us What's What, and that's sexist at best and misogynistic at worst.

So stick that in your gender equality pipe and smoke it.

Even if the OP was a woman, the arguments still fall flat, because there's really no sexual overtone in the treatment of Vette. Also, as another poster said, I like how Quinn is not brought up at all by the OP, but remember that Abuse is Okay When It's Female on Male, as though it "doesn't count".

The fact of the matter is that these things are put in the game specifically to address the fact that it actually *is* okay in the Empire. If we as players are made to feel uncomfortable by it, then the writing and design has done its job. But our characters, by design, by the fact that this is their world, do not necessarily have to feel the same way. The treatment of Vette (and Quinn) is not a heinous crime in this universe. Bioware would ruin it by making it any other way.

But I think in the end we all have to realize that we are not our characters, and if the OP can't make that dissociation, they should probably cease playing a story-based MMORPG, or go over to the Republic side (which isn't really all sunshine and rainbows, but it certainly isn't the Power Uber Alles vibe of the Empire).

I am an art major who has worked in the Advertising/Graphic Design industry as an Art Director for one of the largest advertising firms in the United States (for the past 25 years) ... video games are not art and will never be deemed "art." They're entertainment.

 

Video games, such as this one, are based on Science Fiction or Fantasy. It isn't real. To put a real world spin on it is a farce.

 

Blowing up an entire planet of people with a huge lazer in a movie didn't have you making posts about the immorality of murder, did it? So why do it here?

 

Relax, it's not real. If you think it's too offensive, LEAVE.

Storytelling, drawing/painting/illustrating of any sort, music. You would agree these are all art forms yes?

Video games utilize all three of these. How you can say they aren't art is baffling.

First thing I have to say: I disagree with the OP.

Still, there is at least one case of sexual abuse in game (Not by the player's character himself). On Alderaan the Sith Warrior can deliver Lady Renata to Duke Kendoh. And between the lines it is very clear that he wants more then just "question her".

Also, before you get Vette you see the prison keeper shocking her just for fun. When I saw this I thougt: '(If male guards can do with female prisoners whatever they want just for fun, then) sexual abuse must be very common in imperial prisons.'

Yes, this is not directly from the game and I don't think Bioware wanted me to think this. But if the Empire were real, it would definitly be a footnote in their list of crimes.

I think it is good, that the Empire is shown as evil. It is good that their crimes are made clear in game. Everyone who plays Empire should say at the end of the day: I know that I won't like to live there if I could chose.

So if this is not clear enough, then the game has a little flaw here. but I think it is pretty clear.

The Sith Warrior can't abuse Vette. He also can't force her into the form of relationship he likes.

Also, before you get Vette you see the prison keeper shocking her just for fun. When I saw this I thougt: '(If male guards can do with female prisoners whatever they want just for fun, then) sexual abuse must be very common in imperial prisons.'

Yes, this is not directly from the game and I don't think Bioware wanted me to think this. But if the Empire were real, it would definitly be a footnote in their list of crimes.

But it's not only in the Empire. You think republic is full of saints?

Star Wars is just portrayed very child-friendly, but in reality, it's a crapsack world.

Back on topic, about how having a female slave is sexist, people seem to ignore that there are PLENTY of male slaves too. More than enough for every female SW out there.

Also, before you get Vette you see the prison keeper shocking her just for fun. When I saw this I thougt: '(If male guards can do with female prisoners whatever they want just for fun, then) sexual abuse must be very common in imperial prisons.'

Yes, this is not directly from the game and I don't think Bioware wanted me to think this. But if the Empire were real, it would definitly be a footnote in their list of crimes.

Just look at Mako's biography to see what BW hints to when it comes to childcare under Hutt rule. Horrible, but also very believable in the context of their reign and culture. The shadows in SW are really deep if you bother to really look at them.

Quick question -- is the OP a man? Because if they are, that brings the whole 'gender equality' argument to a screeching halt, because here we have a man telling us women what is and isn't appropriate for us. That's white-knighting for us Poor Oppressed Women Who Need A Man To Tell Us What's What, and that's sexist at best and misogynistic at worst.

 

So stick that in your gender equality pipe and smoke it.

 

Even if the OP was a woman, the arguments still fall flat, because there's really no sexual overtone in the treatment of Vette. Also, as another poster said, I like how Quinn is not brought up at all by the OP, but remember that Abuse is Okay When It's Female on Male, as though it "doesn't count".

 

The fact of the matter is that these things are put in the game specifically to address the fact that it actually *is* okay in the Empire. If we as players are made to feel uncomfortable by it, then the writing and design has done its job. But our characters, by design, by the fact that this is their world, do not necessarily have to feel the same way. The treatment of Vette (and Quinn) is not a heinous crime in this universe. Bioware would ruin it by making it any other way.

 

But I think in the end we all have to realize that we are not our characters, and if the OP can't make that dissociation, they should probably cease playing a story-based MMORPG, or go over to the Republic side (which isn't really all sunshine and rainbows, but it certainly isn't the Power Uber Alles vibe of the Empire).

I love you.

The problematically 5th grade level writing in ToR touches on topics from sexual violence to torture, slavery and bigotry without even a bit of intelligent context or commentary.

I haven't read all 30-something pages of this thread, so someone may have touched on this, but you're factually wrong here. There absolutely is context for all of this- we know the Empire loses. When you're playing on the Empire side, you are observing a failed society. I'm not a mind reader, so I can't say exactly where Bioware is going to go with all of this, but I'm nevertheless pretty certain that all of the things you mention are going to be at the forefront of reasons why the Empire loses.

As for the Vette thing, I played a Sith Warrior to 50. I never once shocked or mistreated Vette, nor did I feel like the game was encouraging me to do so. Obviously some people really enjoy that aspect of the game, but that doesn't upset me, because this is a role-playing game. You seem to be arguing that the game offers mechanical benefits for treating her cruelly, but that's not really true. Going Light Side is a perfectly viable option with gear that is exactly as good as the Dark Side stuff. If you choose to go DS, that's on you.

I don't really agree fervently with the OP, but there are aspects of his/her argument that I can relate to. The only reason I don't agree is because I'm not out there to censor anyone. However, because of all of that--- sexual abuse, slavery, general crime, I don't play Empire. I know it sounds silly, but when I have to hit the button that says "Yeah, enslave her" (or whatever it is, you know what I mean) it actually makes me feel wrong. I prefer being the guys on the "good" side, even if the good side is flawed and/or corrupt. At least you're (I'm) standing for better ideals.

Now, one thing I feel kinda sad about is the fact that so many people play the empire to get their evil jollies off. It reminds me of an interesting point an old college professor of mine brought up about people who love horror movies. One way to view that culture is that there's a certain evil inside humans that likes to see other humans being dismembered, gored, killed, what have you. Now we know that feeling that way is "bad" so in order to justify such a fancy is wanting the killer to be brutally killed in the end, which is why (according to this idea) the "bad guy" usually dies, often brutally, in the end... that symbolizes us (the audience disturbingly enjoying watching him dismember innocent people) washing our hands clean of any involvement in such behavior.

So I'm not trying to preach anything to anyone... I don't care who you play or why, but it IS an interesting notion that the OP brought up, and I'm fascinated by the psychology behind it... I would like to know why people play these "bad guys" and have fun making such decisions, but still call themselves "good" and say that they are unaffected by such content. However, if I'll ever achieve such an answer, it's *most likely* going to be outside of this forum, lol. But I am interested to see how the trolls attack me here, like they so brutally ripped apart this poor OP, hehe.

I don't really agree fervently with the OP, but there are aspects of his/her argument that I can relate to. The only reason I don't agree is because I'm not out there to censor anyone. However, because of all of that--- sexual abuse, slavery, general crime, I don't play Empire. I know it sounds silly, but when I have to hit the button that says "Yeah, enslave her" (or whatever it is, you know what I mean) it actually makes me feel wrong. I prefer being the guys on the "good" side, even if the good side is flawed and/or corrupt. At least you're (I'm) standing for better ideals.

 

Now, one thing I feel kinda sad about is the fact that so many people play the empire to get their evil jollies off.

 

<snip>

 

So I'm not trying to preach anything to anyone... <snip>

 

I would like to know why people play these "bad guys" and have fun making such decisions, but still call themselves "good" and say that they are unaffected by such content. However, if I'll ever achieve such an answer, it's *most likely* going to be outside of this forum, lol. But I am interested to see how the trolls attack me here, like they so brutally ripped apart this poor OP, hehe.

You are preaching. You're insinuating that people who want to play bad guys have something inherently wrong with them. And you just called anyone who disagrees with the OP's stance a troll. I am neither of these things; I can barely bait a minnow on a hook much less blow up a starship IRL.

Do you want to know why people want to play bad guys? Because, for some people, it's fun to explore and play something that you aren't. It's interesting to explore the seedier side of a fictional universe. Just because my Bounty Hunter likes getting slapped about in the bedroom in RP and she's not above slotting people who are in her way doesn't mean I as the player am any of these things.

There's really not all that much "psychology" behind it; rather, it's the RPG in MMORPG. We're playing a role. We know that this is fiction, and we're media-literate enough to know that these things are okay in the game world, but they're not okay IRL. Anyone who can't make that delineation has a mental issue that was likely already existent. There is no rule that says that when we play an RPG, which is by definition a means of putting ourselves into a world and possibly a role that is not our own, that we must play characters who are of the same moral fibre as ourselves. In fact, for many people, that's boring.

TL;DR version: This game isn't the real world's social justice parade and moral quandary. I want to play pretend.

And just in case anyone still can't wrap their heads around it: WE ARE NOT OUR CHARACTERS. WE ARE NOT OUR CHARACTERS. WE ARE NOT OUR CHARACTERS.

tehjai beat me to it.

Can this thread be closed now? The horse went from a solid to a liquid.

Originally Posted by Shampoo

The problematically 5th grade level writing in ToR touches on topics from sexual violence to torture, slavery and bigotry without even a bit of intelligent context or commentary.

Here..read some lore: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire

Then ask yourself again why such "taboo" topics are touched upon. Its there, its lore. Its the Sith Empire.

It's a fair read, OP, but I mean, the whole Star Wars universe is dominated by the extreme axis of Good and Evil. They made no apologies for that. The Sith are evil. They exploit people, they hurt people, they harbor nothing but selfishness and contempt.

Why abuse someone who genuinely wants to help you? Because you can. Because it amuses you. Because you want to make them stronger. Their hatred for you gives them strength, focus. Or because you couldn't care less if that person drops dead. There's always another useful tool around the corner you can dominate to do your bidding.

Slavery? Who cares. The weak serve the strong or die. What other use is there for them? If they don't want to be slaves, they can prove their mettle against all odds (very slight spoiler: Sith Inquisitor storyline is all about this). They survive, they'll have your respect... until you find a way to make them serve you, or kill them before they become a threat.

Genocide? Why should you tolerate people living on your planet who do not benefit you? Let them use resources that could be yours? Your strong enough to take it, so you do so. They can either accept that, or they can die. In fact, accepting it isn't enough. They better HELP you carry all their resources back along the way, or you'll kill them because you just want to hear the sounds they make before the die.

That is what it means to be Sith.

If that's not for you, you can always swim against the tide (Light side Sith yields interesting twists)... or roll a Republic character, who generally follow the Mass Effect ethos. You're a good character, but either a paragon or a renegade. Crusading paladin or avenging, ruthless knight.

I would like to know why people play these "bad guys" and have fun making such decisions, but still call themselves "good" and say that they are unaffected by such content.

So when a writer writes a book and creates a very interesting villain for it, that does all kinds of bad things, he is automatically evil himself?

I just don't get the primitivism of people. Why something I make my character do has to be connected to me?

One of the best things about SWTOR is the ability to choose light or dark. I find dark side distasteful so I play light side even though most of my characters are Empire.

Am I perfectly at ease with the teen rating on this game? Nope, but that's probably because I'm an American, we turn our kids loose in games with blood splatter and severed body parts going everywhere, but as soon as there's the slightest hint of sexuality, we freak. If this thread had been titled "violence, slavery, and genocide", it would have summed up just about every video game out there, it's that s-word that gets our panties in a bunch.

To all the other posters , I'm sorry but I couldn't read through 40 pages of this.

To the OP , I just wanted to say that because people like you exist all games . stories , movies music and so on is polluted by the "right" ideas . Taking your way of thinking into consideration , Tom and Jerry ; Buggs Bunny cartoons should be banned because they are too violent and inappropriate . Games and movies and so on are just entertainment and , by normal and sane people , are considered just that. By living in a idealistic world we don't what's wrong in the society we live today. IMO people should be exposed to both the light and the dark , so to speak , in order to see what truly life is and what lies in front of them and I like to think that a game would not change this , because that would mean that we are devolving into the primates we once were , meaning we would loose our ability to discern between reality and fantasy. and i truly hope and like to think that our society is not heading in that direction , even tho with people like you I'm starting to think that is a possibility.

-op

You should really [not] read the Revan book. It's by one of the principal authors behind Sw:Tor, and offers some pretty interesting insight into his personality. To save you the pain I put myself through in choking it down and just get to the moments i'm talking about:

Several times in the story, male and female compatriots fight together. Enough times to make it a noticeable trend (3 or 4). Every time, more attention is given to the woman's death. The men are swept under the rug, and the women either experience questioning -> death, or just an outright brutal death with graphic descriptions. The one exception happens at the end of the book, and stands out as a remarkable example of somehow departing from a bad theme only to hit something worse.

The only other thing worth noting is that... well, Dragon Age 2 got ripped on for a lot of other things, but at least the sexuality wasn't offensive. Maybe taking a more open-minded stance and getting crapped on for it drove BW's writers to the traditional sexist route for SWTOR.

Maybe ME3 will be a step back in the right direction. I suppose we'll see.

So I'm not trying to preach anything to anyone... I don't care who you play or why, but it IS an interesting notion that the OP brought up, and I'm fascinated by the psychology behind it... I would like to know why people play these "bad guys" and have fun making such decisions, but still call themselves "good" and say that they are unaffected by such content. However, if I'll ever achieve such an answer, it's *most likely* going to be outside of this forum, lol. But I am interested to see how the trolls attack me here, like they so brutally ripped apart this poor OP, hehe.

Interesting indeed. But I think you could interpret the psychology in an other way. I agree that we all have this evil inside of us.

Reading about an evil character, watching an evil character or playing an evil character is the chance to explore this evil inside of us. We want to know how it works, but we still know it is our enemy. Especially if we have a good guy on the other side. (Most of us play good and evil characters in swtor I think.)

So we learn more about good and evil inside of us and this helps us to choose good over evil in RL.