So aside from this error message if you try to spin after you've already hit the limit, where we would see this displayed... would be a new entry in the legacy menu possibly copy/pasted/modified from the reputation code as a base? (Hmmm... On that note, one counter for any and all slot machines to be introduced? Or a new counter added for each separate type of machine added?) Tweak the code to use the dailies reset time instead of the weeklies reset time... Tweak the code to zero out the current value on a reset as well since this is not exactly the same as reputation... Unless they want to keep in the system for ranks to be silly with it and grant new titles to those who keep coming back to the slots day after day? (In which case they'd pretty much have to plan to have a separate counter for each machine.) Hope that they don't screw something up and cause reputation values to get zeroed out at the next reset because they picked the wrong way to make that change...

I really don't think you need more than a Red line of text on the screen every time you click, once the slot-chip limit is reached. It might be nice to play an animation but not essential. I think you may be overthinking and making a simple solution more difficult than it needs to be.

I seem to have confused you. I'm not saying they use the exact same code as that used by the Reputation system. I'm saying that as a proof of concept there is code already in the game that has they ability to do what I am suggesting. That is, store a variable for legacy, alter it and then reset it on a predetermined time scale.

 

Alright. It's something. Now if anybody over there actually reads and makes note of these ideas, if they bring something up at a meeting and ask "Is this feasible?" there's something specific to be discussed rather than (to imagine a worst case scenario for such a situation) getting a conversation that goes something like:

Exec: "An idea that fans have been floating around the forums says to add a legacy limit to slot machine uses so we can turn the drop rates back up a bit. Is it possible?"

Dev: "Shoot. I don't know... Maybe I could... Nah, but what if... No... How about..."

Exec: "Forget it. Moving onto the next idea." *crumples the paper and tosses it in the trash*

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say aside from a rough understanding of what the engine can deliver when going through basic concept stages the system designers don't go into too much detail on coding as that is the job of the programmers. Sometimes but not always the same.

I also think your command structure is out of whack. An Exec is far more likely to be asking 'Is the game making a profit?' and 'How can we make more profit?' than specifics on game systems.

A System designer is more likely to be talking about game features such as individual items or new mechanics and writing up design briefs.

The programmers are at the bottom of the tree and usually get the short end of the stick with a 'Here's a great idea we came up with, code a prototype.'

 

That actually is exactly the same thing. We could see this demonstrated visually during the Nightlife Event when the lucky buff was active. The buff would disappear the instant you clicked on a machine for a jackpot roll, not the 2-3 seconds later when the animation actually reached the point where it shows the jackpot result. The result of the roll is determined before the animation is shown. The animation is just for show and has no actual relevance to anything.

I will agree the animation is just for show, the spinny wheel and when you click has no effect on chance to win, clicking on the machine simply triggers a random number to be generated. Displaying the results of that click will vary, those that just effect the buff will be quick and applied instantly, the animation however will need to play through as it is part and parcel of the inbuilt cool down.

 

When considering the variable it has to be incremented after the result is known not before.

Sequence of code is: 1) generate random number 2) check result against reward rates 3) play animation/ give reward based/ remove 'lucky' buff.

You don't want to alter the variable for slot-chip use prior to stage 1) (the imagined point of using the machine) as you don't know what the result is going to be. You increment the variable after the result is known, at stage 3).

Edited January 29, 2015 by Vhaegrant

The price we have to pay for chips now is too much. I wouldn't pay 1000. For the original chip price of 500, I'd be fine if they limited the number of stacks you can play to two per day or whatever, but it would have to be back pretty much to what it was before they nerf-zilla'd the machine.

All values I have mentioned are personal preference and I've put little to no maths behind them or compared the return on credits spent to time and credits spent on running the existing crew missions. They are purely set on a feeling of what I feel is fair and would be willing to pay.

Although my reason for using the slot machine would be to hope for a cartel certificate reward, all other rewards would be vendored to offset the cost, or possibly used in conquest crafting.

 

Another thought I had, was put them back to the original way it was, but make it an 'event'. Like have a gambling weekend once every couple of months or so, and people could play to their hearts content then.

Unlimited access is a dangerous route, as evidenced by the slot frenzy that followed the initial statement that the machines were 'working as intended'. Some players hoarded vast amounts of certificates and Jawa tokens and then had the audacity to say that it was boring.

Unfortunately, and I hate to say this, some of the time you have to protect players from their own desire to just sit and click an immovable object for hour upon hour (if they are even doing it themselves and not just set a 3rd party macro to do it). The virtual equivalent of a parent saying 'Go outside and play.'

I personally would prefer a debuff to a hard and fast limit. Muljo_Stpho suggested one similar to resource exhaustion; I've previously posted to suggest a debuff for reward drop rates similar to the "Feeling Lucky" buff from the Nightlife event.

 

Debuff post here

Full thread here

 

The advantage of a drop rate debuff is that you have the option of not completely gating the mechanic (that is, players could still use the machine); what would change is how attractive it would be to continue.

 

I could get behind a set limit on spins if it's determined that it would be the best and most feasible option. I'm just not sure it is, yet.

 

I suggested 'Flat limit' on Legacy as it seemed the easiest, less code intensive, means of getting a more balanced compromise into the game as quickly as possible and is about the easiest way to forecast (and set) the introduction of materials into the game.

All values I have mentioned are personal preference and I've put little to no maths behind them or compared the return on credits spent to time and credits spent on running the existing crew missions. They are purely set on a feeling of what I feel is fair and would be willing to pay.

Although my reason for using the slot machine would be to hope for a cartel certificate reward, all other rewards would be vendored to offset the cost, or possibly used in conquest crafting.

 

 

Unlimited access is a dangerous route, as evidenced by the slot frenzy that followed the initial statement that the machines were 'working as intended'. Some players hoarded vast amounts of certificates and Jawa tokens and then had the audacity to say that it was boring.

Unfortunately, and I hate to say this, some of the time you have to protect players from their own desire to just sit and click an immovable object for hour upon hour (if they are even doing it themselves and not just set a 3rd party macro to do it). The virtual equivalent of a parent saying 'Go outside and play.'

 

Well, it wouldn't be exactly unlimited. If they ran it as an event, it'd only be for one weekend, every couple of months or whatever. Like you, I just picked those numbers arbitrarily cause they sounded fair to me.

Well, it wouldn't be exactly unlimited. If they ran it as an event, it'd only be for one weekend, every couple of months or whatever. Like you, I just picked those numbers arbitrarily cause they sounded fair to me.

The community saw the effects a 'free access' period had. Some players used the machines as the devs probably intended, put a stack or two through and move on to playing the game. Where as more exploitative players saw the writing on the wall and sat down and clicked through masses of slot-chips racking up stacks and stacks of purple jawa tokens and cartel certificates.

This creates a perception of imbalance and a feeling that if you are not sat clicking through stacks of slot-chips you are now playing at a disadvantage. Thus comes the call from a significant part of the player base that they are being 'forced' to play a way they don't want to remain competitive.

Whether the slot machines actually caused enough new materials to drive down prices or the fear of this incoming tidal wave panicked the material traders to off load their stock as quickly as they could so they didn't loose on their investment is open to debate.

It is amusing to me that people would rather make the slot machines less useful than sending out companions. As though it's totally game breaking to stand at a slot machine while sending an army of companions is actually playing the game. I just continue using my 96 companions to gather me stuff while everyone tries to "balance" these slot machines.

I suggested 'Flat limit' on Legacy as it seemed the easiest, less code intensive, means of getting a more balanced compromise into the game as quickly as possible and is about the easiest way to forecast (and set) the introduction of materials into the game.

Easiest to forecast, definitely. Least code intensive I'm not sure about, if only due to the fact that code for a buff to change drop rates already exists and it's probable that a legacy spin limit does not.

 

I think they're both better options than what we have now, and it's pretty obvious that something needs to be done if the machines are to function as viable credit sinks (for anyone not hunting rep or desperate for a 90% status vehicle). I haven't used mine since the patch dropped, and I get the feeling I'm not alone.

The Contraband slot machines are a good idea, aside from the obvious drop rates on the initial release, the biggest issue is that they are so easily exploited by those with a lot of time on their hands or the third party tech to run macros. This is not a good thing.

 

If news from the recent San Antonio Cantina event is true and they are not considering a further change then this also is not a good thing.

 

I agree that the first drop rates were far too high. But the reaction to nerf them into oblivion to balance it against those players that sit for 5+ hours at a time clicking the slots completely destroys the item for those that found it a fun way to pass a little time between queues popping.

 

It should also be remembered that while companions run Crew missions the player can get on with other stuff, whether in-game such as dailies, fps, etc... or out of game such as sleeping. The slot machine is an exclusive activity, you can not do anything else, although you can still send companions out on crew missions.

 

I have previously suggested differing drop rates, I'll list them again here for completion.

 

Raise slot-chip cost to 1,000 credits.

 

• 30.49% (0.3049) Loss
  
• 25% (0.25) Green Reputation Token
  
• 10% (0.1) Blue Reputation Token
  
• 4% (0.04) Purple Reputation Token
  
• 20% (0.2) Green Jawa Material
  
• 8% (0.08) Blue Jawa Material
  
• 2% (0.02) Purple Jawa Material
  
• 0.5% (0.005) Cartel Certificate
  
• 0.01% (0.0001) Faction Mount
  

 

Limit the amount of slot-chips a legacy can spend per day to 200.

 

I feel these steps go a long way to moderating the impact any abuse can have while still meeting the original criteria.

 

Restricting the number of times a player can do an activity is nothing new in MMOs. We already have dailies, weeklies, OP lockouts and a limit on the number of coms that can be earned in a week and stored.

 

I purposely removed the reward of a slot-chip as I prefer simpler maths, at most it extends the time spent feeding slot-chips into the machine, as pure reward with slot-chips costing 1,000 credits it is effectively the same as a Blue reputation win after you've maxed out reputation

 

The limit across the legacy is to stop abuse of using 22 character slots.

If 200 sounds too low then maybe a Legacy unlock feature could be added.

 

'I don't have a problem!' Legacy unlock :

• Rank 1: +100 slot-chips per day = 2,000,000 credits
  
• Rank 2: +100 slot-chips per day = 4,000,000 credits
  
• Rank 3: +100 slot-chips per day = 8,000,000 credits
  

 

Your proposed drop rate/win % would still make the slot machine mostly worthless in my opinion. You would need to double your proposed drop rate/win % in order for me to seriously look at using it again, or chasing future versions of it.

 

To me, the most useful things out of the slot machines were the green/purple mat certificates. Getting 4 Jawa Junk for a 200k investment means you get 1 (whatever the slicing purple is called) for 200k. That's not enough to craft a purple augment and you're better off running missions or buying off the GTN.

 

There has to be an advantage to using the slot machine (again, in my opinion) beyond the rep and the insane low chance at a mount that (for the moment) can't be sold.

Easiest to forecast, definitely. Least code intensive I'm not sure about, if only due to the fact that code for a buff to change drop rates already exists and it's probable that a legacy spin limit does not.

I feel the main issue with the debuff is that it is so easily bypassed, just switch to another character. Unlike the lucky buff it is a debuff that has to persist on the characters debuff bar for hours at a time just adding to the clutter.

 

While exact code for the legacy limit is probably not in existence we can suppose that the elements needed for it are:

 

On release of the Legacy patch all of those years ago some form of legacy object was included to store data. The family tree part of the legacy stores information about individual character customisation and armour worn down to the colour dyes.

Subsequent to this was the release of the Achievements. Again an aspect that is shared across a legacy and each character is able to contribute to altering individual achievement targets. That certain parts of it have been affected by other updates (notably the previous Nightlife event which had many of the achievements reset ) makes me wonder how inherently stable this information is.

Lastly the inclusion of the Reputation system. Again tracked across the whole legacy with individual characters contributing to a weekly limit to move up differing reputation levels to Legendary. With a weekly reset and buffs that can affect individual contributions such as guild size and subscriber state.

 

All the pieces seem to be there. It just depends on whether the will is.

Your proposed drop rate/win % would still make the slot machine mostly worthless in my opinion. You would need to double your proposed drop rate/win % in order for me to seriously look at using it again, or chasing future versions of it.

 

To me, the most useful things out of the slot machines were the green/purple mat certificates. Getting 4 Jawa Junk for a 200k investment means you get 1 (whatever the slicing purple is called) for 200k. That's not enough to craft a purple augment and you're better off running missions or buying off the GTN.

 

There has to be an advantage to using the slot machine (again, in my opinion) beyond the rep and the insane low chance at a mount that (for the moment) can't be sold.

 

For me the Jawa Tokens are not meant to be the reason for having the slot machine. They are a nice little side bonus.

 

Primarily the slot machine should be about providing reputation tokens, which it still does even in its current form.

Then it should be about providing Cartel certificates, but at a rate that still makes them feel valuable but attainable, the current drop rate I feel is far too low, the previous too high.

Lastly it should be about providing materials in the form of jawa tokens and these should not invalidate other means of acquiring them.

 

The advantage to using a slot machine is that it provides items that previously were locked behind cartel packs.

 

They should not be considered a credit printing machine but a credit sink, with that cost based on what it might cost to acquire such items from the cartel packs.

The Contraband slot machines are a good idea, aside from the obvious drop rates on the initial release, the biggest issue is that they are so easily exploited by those with a lot of time on their hands or the third party tech to run macros. This is not a good thing.

 

They should NERF SLICING before they touch the slot machines again why should people make millions by just running around Yavin 4 with a lot of time on their hands

If we're going to mess with the drop rates, then I would suggest the following:

 

• 31.4% (0.314) Loss
  
• 33% (0.33) Green Reputation Token
  
• 10% (0.1) Blue Reputation Token
  
• 4.5% (0.045) Purple Reputation Token
  
• 20% (0.2) Slot Token
  
• 1% (0.01) Cartel Certificate
  
• 0.1% (0.001) Rare Mount
  

 

Leave the token cost where it currently is.

You would get roughly 1 Cartel Certificate per 75k in tokens.

No material scrap; this is to eliminate questions of economy impact.

Rare Mount takes an average of ~750k on average instead of ~7.5mil.

Since nothing causes balancing issues, no system needed to limit usage.

Edited January 29, 2015 by azudelphi

The CSM was fine as originally released.

 

Stop worrying about where OTHER people get their stuff or how OTHER people spend their time in the game.

The CSM was fine as originally released.

 

Stop worrying about where OTHER people get their stuff or how OTHER people spend their time in the game.

 

So, I will admit... originally I was in the camp of, "Eh, whatever. They're fine as is." But I started looking at the numbers involved with the Jawa Junk. The CSM was effectively putting out purple materials at an approximate cost of 5000 cpu; less when you factor in re-rolls.

 

500 Credits / Coin * 100 Coins * 10% chance of Jawa Junk = 5000 Credits per Purple

 

That was a good fraction less than the cost as it was from using crew skills. Clearly, making Crew Skills useless was not part of the original design. Thus it was not fine and it was necessary to change it.

Edited January 29, 2015 by azudelphi

So, I will admit... originally I was in the camp of, "Eh, whatever. They're fine as is." But I started looking at the numbers involved with the Jawa Junk. The CSM was effectively putting out purple materials at an approximate cost of 5000 cpu; less when you factor in re-rolls.

 

500 Credits / Coin * 100 Coins * 10% chance of Jawa Junk = 5000 Credits per Purple

 

That was a good fraction less than the cost as it was from using crew skills. Clearly, making Crew Skills useless was not part of the original design. Thus it was not fine and it was necessary to change it.

 

To me, this should have revealed how poor the "purple return" was, and is, on crew missions -- instead of getting certain persons worked up about the drop rate on the CSM.

 

Of course, to quite a few of those certain persons, anything that increases the number of purple mats in the pool would be met with howls of protest, whether because anything that makes the game less of a chore is "easy mode arglebargle" or because "muh GTN profits!"

Edited January 29, 2015 by Max_Killjoy

The issue was not the damn machine it was adding grade 11 Mats to jawa vendors.

Blaming the slot machines is completely misplaced, though lowering the purples was needed slightly, not .001% chance.

 

But hey, keep wasting your time complaining it's the slot machine...now we wont get any more...

 

...one of the main thing this game needs is non combat things to do (pazzak, sabak, dejarik, swoop racing, etc)other then sending companions on missions (should be removed, players should actually have to gather resources, but that's another issue), decorating your stronghold, and playing the GTN.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Danw

The issue was not the damn machine it was adding grade 11 Mats to jawa vendors.

Blaming the slot machines is completely misplaced, though lowering the purples was needed slightly, not .001% chance.

 

But hey, keep wasting your time complaining it's the slot machine...now we wont get any more...

 

...one of the main thing this game needs is non combat things to do (pazzak, sabak, dejarik, swoop racing, etc)other then sending companions on missions (should be removed, players should actually have to gather resources, but that's another issue), decorating your stronghold, and playing the GTN.

 

I actually welcome the future ones. Can't wait to top off a few reputations.

 

Adding materials to the slot machines was a terrible idea though...

 

Edit: I do agree that the Grade 11 materials added to the Jawa Vendors in the same week was the significant cause of the sudden market collapse on those materials. I think there was an over-exaggeration of the effect on the market from the CSM. But it did have an effect, it was not sustainable, and I think changing them to strictly reputation machines isn't bad. Wouldn't argue if they decided to up the rates on Cartel Certs.

Edited January 29, 2015 by azudelphi

There are so many things they could have done.

 

Raised the coin price to 2k per.

Add in a "lucky buff" that would have provided prior numbers when you hit it.

Removed scrap all together from the loot table.

Limit the amount of spins.

Limit the amount of coins you can use daily.

Raise the cost of 11 mats on the vendors.

Set the returns at reasonable levels.

Create a new universal bound mat that drops instead.

Charge CC for the coins.

 

But they chose instead to do none of that, instead going the route they normally do.....quickly nerf something into oblivion.

 

That seems to be their SOP. The thing that gets me is a small adjustment to certificate drop rates, returning them to prior levels would probably have diffused this, but they seem to lack any amount of concern about their behavior lately.

 

So, to me, this is indicative of a larger problem with the current dev team. One that I can no longer ignore.

The issue was not the damn machine it was adding grade 11 Mats to jawa vendors.

 

What's wrong with that? The Jawa vendors had quite a few of the top-grade mats before 3.0 added grade 11, didn't they?

So, I will admit... originally I was in the camp of, "Eh, whatever. They're fine as is." But I started looking at the numbers involved with the Jawa Junk. The CSM was effectively putting out purple materials at an approximate cost of 5000 cpu; less when you factor in re-rolls.

 

500 Credits / Coin * 100 Coins * 10% chance of Jawa Junk = 5000 Credits per Purple

 

That was a good fraction less than the cost as it was from using crew skills. Clearly, making Crew Skills useless was not part of the original design. Thus it was not fine and it was necessary to change it.

 

When you factor in additional cost reductions such as redeeming the reputation tokens once rep hits legend and using the cartel certificates to purchase decorations for sale on the GTN the cost per purple fell well below the 5k mark.

 

I think there are few if any that could defend the initial drop rates.

However, the machines were marketed as offering more than just reputation and that just isn't the case at the moment.

Unless you have obscened amounts of time to spend clicking (or set up a 3rd paty keyboard/mouse macro to do the clicking for you), the returns on a stack are purely reputation.

 

If that's how the slot machine had originally been marketed I would be fine with that, as it stands if future machines are released that ONLY drop reputation, I'll still pick them up, but my purchasing decisions and the amount I am willing to part with will reflect that reduced functionality.

 

On the whole I'm more concerned from the lack of clear communication (second hand from the cantina event isn't great) and how such a broken item could make it to live in the first place.