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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?


Dovahbrah

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Played 5-6 ranked matches yesterday on my commando. Won 3-4 against pugs, lost twice (close games) to a decent guild team. Led in damage / killing blows in most matches. Solo-killed/capped a turret in Civil War against geared sniper (from guild team). We actually had 2 pyro commandos for a while.

 

Honestly, I'd never complain to see a buff for the class... but it's hard for me to argue I need it. Buff arsenal if really necessary, but assault is fine.

 

Nice!

 

Competent player > Incompetent player.

 

I've seen some stacked PUGs on my server, so it all depends on who's running with who and the level of communication. Hell, we'll run premades of 4 different guilds and it'll look like a pug, but we dominate.

 

Mercs are support role class, people aren't playing them correctly. In good hands like yours, they can be absolutely devastating and Pyro Mercs are very viable. I have a guildie who runs it and he tops the DPS charts as well.

 

Arsenal has it's own issues, but I've seen Arsenal players do extremely well. The problem is that they think that they should act like a rotating turret. It needs to be a TM TM TM, move, railshot on the go, Proc'd Unload. The more mobile you can make yourself, the more effective you become. Hug corners. Little things like that.

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Nice!

 

Competent player > Incompetent player.

 

I've seen some stacked PUGs on my server, so it all depends on who's running with who and the level of communication. Hell, we'll run premades of 4 different guilds and it'll look like a pug, but we dominate..

 

Ugh, I thought we went over this. The people here aren't saying "Weak class, I can'ts killz nothin' so it's got to be the class!" Some of us here are top commando/merc players on our server, or atleast have decent track records. The reason we (and BW agreed) say commando needs some work, is because we also play other toons. Other toons, other specs, other roles, etc... Comparing between our toons, we've all found that on the dps Merc/Commando, we are always the least effective.

 

It's not "Can't kill that guy, must be my class." It's "Sure I can kill people/defend/assault/dance... but I can do it much better on any other toon/spec."

 

Mercs are support role class, people aren't playing them correctly. In good hands like yours, they can be absolutely devastating and Pyro Mercs are very viable. I have a guildie who runs it and he tops the DPS charts as well.

 

Arsenal has it's own issues, but I've seen Arsenal players do extremely well. The problem is that they think that they should act like a rotating turret. It needs to be a TM TM TM, move, railshot on the go, Proc'd Unload. The more mobile you can make yourself, the more effective you become. Hug corners. Little things like that.

 

Now, I'll ignore for the moment that you're a non-merc/commando telling players how to play their classes.

 

Dps Mercs are -not- a support role class. I mentioned this earlier when I explained support. Any dps can "support" another dps. Let one take point, the other follow, etc... But why have 1 strong dps and 1 weak one, when you could just have two strong dps? A maurader and a merc could team up (merc supporting the maurader), but the team would be better off with a maurader being "supported" by a sniper. The sniper will have better survivability, be harder to lock down, won't have to rely on "hugging corners" and even has a team defense buff.

 

A support class/role must be something that acts as a force multiplier for the team. If you look back through my posts you'll see I've explained this, but I'll recap.

 

A healer is a force multiplier. Alone, they're only really worth .75 of a unit, easy prey for a dps (our whole 1 unit). However, a healer adds .25 effectiveness to any unit around them. So in 2 vs 2, the healer is .75 effective while their companion is 1+.25 effective, or a solid 2 vs 2. In 3 vs 3, it's (.75+1.25+1.25) 3.25 vs. 3... etc...

 

A tank works much the same way, except I'd say they actually decrease the effectiveness of the enemy. Once again let's say a tank is .75 of a unit by itself. Has survivability, but little damage and it's support to a team is useless 1 vs 1. Throw them on a team though, and they start decreasing the enemies effectivenss by .25, 2 vs. 2 is (.75+1) 1.75 vs. 1.75 (1+1-.25). 3 is (.75+1+1) 2.75 vs. 2.5 (1+1+1-.5) and onward.

 

Now, a dps merc has no force multiplier. If they are left alone to dish out damage it is because of an idiot opposing team, not because the player or class has actually done anything. Dps Mercs are not designed to heal, buff, protect, or debuff. They are not designed to fill any sort of support ability. If they were, their off-heals would be better and less costly, or their heat signatures would provide +% damage to all damage on the target.

 

So... not trying to be rude (we've had differences before) but please explain how you figure a Merc/Commando is simply being played wrong, and their suppose to be "support" without any actual support abilities? Why take one as "support dps" when the role can be filled more effectively by a sniper?

Edited by Doomsdaycomes
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Nice!

 

Competent player > Incompetent player.

 

Look up Confirmation bias, I think you suffer from it.

 

Mercs are support role class, people aren't playing them correctly.

 

Says who? You?

 

They're relegated to a support role due to their terrible current design. I've never heard a SWTOR Dev state Mercs are suppose to be a support class. If they're a support class, where's our support utility? It's non-existant. You can claim we're a support class all you want, but if we're going to be a support class, then where's our support capabilities? How do we support better than any other class? We don't.

 

In good hands like yours, they can be absolutely devastating and Pyro Mercs are very viable. I have a guildie who runs it and he tops the DPS charts as well.

 

You have no idea who this guy is, he makes one post in favor of Mercs and he's your new best buddy. :rolleyes:

 

No one said Mercs can't top the DPS charts (which are somewhat irrelevant as this is an objective-based PvP game). It's easy to top DPS charts when you're being ignored. The guy even said he faced pugs, who were likely terrible.

 

Arsenal has it's own issues, but I've seen Arsenal players do extremely well.

 

Against bad players? Sure. Arsenal spec is the easiest spec to shut down in this entire game; by saying you've seen them do well, you're pretty much admitting they're playing against bad players. If you're admitting that they do well against you, then that says more about you than them.

 

The problem is that they think that they should act like a rotating turret. It needs to be a TM TM TM, move, railshot on the go, Proc'd Unload. The more mobile you can make yourself, the more effective you become. Hug corners. Little things like that.

 

Regardless of how much movement you want to toss into the mix, Arsenal is an incredibly immobile class. The fact is, they're dependent upon TM and Unload casts, which are easily interrupted. You can throw a sticky/railshot on the go, but outside of that, you're not doing much.

 

The class is messed up as a whole; pyro spec is slightly more viable, but it's not nearly as good on a Merc as it is a Pyrotech. I think you have a problem admitting that Mercs are in a bad spot. Do you still feel accomplished when you kill them? If you do, you shouldn't.

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Glad you had fun - but in essence what you're saying is that you can beat pugs. Which is what any skilled commando has been saying all along. Pugs don't suddenly become better when they queue for RWZs.

 

Any 'good' guild RWZ group wouldn't have let you kill a turret guard and solo cap a node, no matter what class you were.

That's actually not what I said. The solo kill was against the guild team. The guild in question isn't top tier, but at least middle tier. Long established, respected,,highly geared. If I was rolling with my regular crew, I think we would've won those two matches... but we had to pug our healers, including a sage in mostly BM.

 

Your point basically comes down to: commandos aren't competitive against good teams/players, and therefore ipso facto, if as a commando you beat a player/team, they must not have been very good. That's nice. All I can say that I could've been playing as my EWH sentinel, and I don't think I would've helped any more than I did as commando.

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Ugh, I thought we went over this. The people here aren't saying "Weak class, I can'ts killz nothin' so it's got to be the class!" Some of us here are top commando/merc players on our server, or atleast have decent track records. The reason we (and BW agreed) say commando needs some work, is because we also play other toons. Other toons, other specs, other roles, etc... Comparing between our toons, we've all found that on the dps Merc/Commando, we are always the least effective.

 

It's not "Can't kill that guy, must be my class." It's "Sure I can kill people/defend/assault/dance... but I can do it much better on any other toon/spec."

 

Don't try to reason with him, it's obviously in one ear and out the other. Obviously it's us and not the class. :rolleyes:

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All I can say that I could've been playing as my EWH sentinel, and I don't think I would've helped any more than I did as commando.

 

Did you type that with a straight face?

 

Nevermind the group speed buff, the group damage buff, the defensive CDs, the healing debuff, the great damage output and whatnot. Surely your commando helped just as much. :rolleyes:

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Nice!

 

Competent player > Incompetent player.

 

I've seen some stacked PUGs on my server, so it all depends on who's running with who and the level of communication. Hell, we'll run premades of 4 different guilds and it'll look like a pug, but we dominate.

 

Mercs are support role class, people aren't playing them correctly. In good hands like yours, they can be absolutely devastating and Pyro Mercs are very viable. I have a guildie who runs it and he tops the DPS charts as well.

 

Arsenal has it's own issues, but I've seen Arsenal players do extremely well. The problem is that they think that they should act like a rotating turret. It needs to be a TM TM TM, move, railshot on the go, Proc'd Unload. The more mobile you can make yourself, the more effective you become. Hug corners. Little things like that.

 

i dont understand these people... did you actually play a merc? its horrible, powertech is better in assault spec, better then anything merc can bring. arsenal is to easily shutdown, even a recruit gear sentinel can annihalte you not so hard, and assault is simply not reliable.

Edited by xxIncubixx
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i dont understand these people... did you actually play a merc? its horrible, powertech is better in assault spec, better then anything merc can bring. arsenal is to easily shutdown, even a recruit gear sentinel can annihalte you not so hard, and assault is simply not reliable.

 

Arsenal is too easily shutdown because people are not reacting appropriately when they get attacked. All they want to do is spam TM. That's all it is TM TM TM, Unload, Railshot, TM TM TM, rinse repeat.

 

Yeah as if someone is gonna let you go and spam that from the back row. Same people who used to press 1 button for wins are now crying for a buff.

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Did you type that with a straight face?

 

Nevermind the group speed buff, the group damage buff, the defensive CDs, the healing debuff, the great damage output and whatnot. Surely your commando helped just as much. :rolleyes:

Yes, I did. I play three classes competitively, and I like my assault commando very, very much.

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Arsenal is too easily shutdown because people are not reacting appropriately when they get attacked. All they want to do is spam TM. That's all it is TM TM TM, Unload, Railshot, TM TM TM, rinse repeat.

 

Yeah as if someone is gonna let you go and spam that from the back row. Same people who used to press 1 button for wins are now crying for a buff.

 

The spec requires 3 tracers. Bioware designed it that way. Without the stacks merc dps is laughable.

Edited by Serpieri
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That's actually not what I said. The solo kill was against the guild team.

 

I'm pretty sure that's what I said. You beat all the pugs, lost against the guild team, but the saving grace was solo capping against them. Which makes them not good (or having a really bad day, running a b-team whatever).

 

Your point basically comes down to: commandos aren't competitive against good teams/players, and therefore ipso facto, if as a commando you beat a player/team, they must not have been very good. That's nice.

 

Oof. That's a bit of a leap. How about 'as a commando, the teams you are less likely to get shut down by are bad'.

 

I do really really well as a commando. I have the best gear I can get, boatloads of experience, I can 1v2 scrubs and am usually top of the charts. Against PUGs, or most premades in standards. I can honestly say that I feel I have mastered the class, as both assault and gunnery. Please, check out my vids in my sig - they're not particularly selective, most of my matches win or lose look similar. My last match uploaded has me putting out about 670k damage - which is nowhere near my top end.

 

Once more, for those at the back: I have no problem with how Commando plays as a spec at the low end of PvP. If you excel, you can beat an average player just fine. Even a good player. The problem is, from experience, at the very top end of competitive play, there is NO room for a DPS commando. There are significantly better choices for your team - the best commandos cannot compete with the best of other ACs.

 

I understand you (appear to) feel that everything is ok if you can do well against a team you perceive as adequate. That is not where I'm at. I can't speak for everyone else.

Edited by Jherad
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I just finished #1 DPS Civil War (800k DMG), with a sorc being 2nd (700k), as a Merc DPS.

 

It was Ranked.

 

FUBAR vs. MVPs (2500-3000+ Rating)

 

...Oh, and I wasn't even full WH min maxed, like everybody else in both teams.

 

 

L2P issues?

 

 

Fix our push like you fixed the sorcs, and give us a self heal like you gave them. Problem fixed.

Oh, and it's lame that Merc Pyros have to spec into +2% endurance, to not gimp themselves, when PTs get 9% DMG on main rail crit ability (RP). Move alacrity bonus somewhere else, and give us +% on unload.

 

PS: The Sorc's middle tree is bad in PvP, so is the PT's (only due to dodgy PFT, however), so the Merc is not alone in that regard.

Edited by SneiK
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Heh. I'm just gonna go ahead and quote your own post back at you.

 

Let's look at the ranked must haves:

 

Juggernaut Tank (Melee)

Assassin Tank (Melee)

Carnage Marauder DPS (Melee)

 

And because of current state of smashspec, having it on top of the above doesn't hurt:

 

Smash Warrior DPS (Melee)

 

So, excluding healers, 4/6 (tank + dps) are melee. the other two could be PT/Sniper/Sorc. The PT will be with those melee, and Sniper has no problems being close to them.

 

What I mean, is that the game is heavily gimped towards melee, and zerging. So no, I'm not seeing bubble spec as a bad thing.

 

 

wat no merc?

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Yes, generally thought others could be Sniper/PT/Sorc, since I haven't had a chance to show my teeth with my merc before (my guild mates didn't let me cuz 'merc sucks').

 

Now, that I have some actual experience, I'm convinced that the Merc DPS is viable indeed, with minor tweaks, however. It still deserves the Pushback fix, for the exact same reasons Sorc got it, and the self heal, for exact the same reason the sorcs got it. Sorcs will still get instant Mezz specced, and Force Speed + Friendly Pull, so they will still have superior utility. Now they have both superior utility, and defensives.

 

PS: Learn to read: 'I JUST finished #1...Also the word 'Could'...You should look it up the dictionary.

Edited by SneiK
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You really have trouble reading. All is not fine with the class. If you could read, you could spot them from my post.

 

The things that are wrong with the class, however, is not the things that people argue about. The DMG capability is there, people just don't know how to use it. And, no, I'm not talking about Arsenal.

Edited by SneiK
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You really have trouble reading. All is not fine with the class. If you could read, you could spot them from my post.

 

Yeah, I spotted a few things from your post. Revamp our pushback, and give us a self heal. Woopdedoop.

 

It'll take a bit more than that. I'm *definitely* not in the 'we need more damage' camp, as per my previous posts I think we're ok there - but better ways to bring that damage to bear, as well as some serious escape tools would be a big help.

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I don't like to bring up the role-playing aspects of the game too much, nor the fact that we have a heavy armor.

 

But I don't think the Mercs are supposed to run from a fight, and should not be too mobile. I'd love a Jetpack ability of some sort, sure, but I don't think those sorts of big changes are coming anytime soon. Fix to our push is my #1 concern, as it is really harming us as it is now. Then, is the fact that we can't handle burst either, just like the sorcs, so not giving us a heal when they get one, is unfair. They have force speed to escape burst as well. That's countering the light armor already.

 

What are you suggesting then? I just want these two things from the devs, or at least a response:

 

#1: The Pushback.

 

#2: The Selfheal.

Edited by SneiK
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I don't like to bring up the role-playing aspects of the game too much, nor the fact that we have a heavy armor.

 

But I don't think the Mercs are supposed to run from a fight, and should not be too mobile. I'd love a Jetpack ability of some sort, sure, but I don't think those sorts of big changes are coming anytime soon. Fix to our push is my #1 concern, as it is really harming us as it is now. Then, is the fact that we can't handle burst either, just like the sorcs, so not giving us a heal, when they get one, is unfair. They have force speed to escape burst as well. That's countering the light armor already.

 

What are you suggesting then? I just want these two things from the devs, or at least a response:

 

#1: The Pushback.

 

#2: The Selfheal.

 

To be honest, I'm not sure. I'm actually completely on your side when you talk about the RP/look-and-feel aspect of the class - It bothers me when people ask for more mobility, ie. the ability to LOS better, as I feel like the commando should be more immobile like the gunslinger is now (and the gunslinger should be jinking and running around).

 

The jetpack would be great, and is wildly popular on these forums. I'd personally like some kind of GT 'go-here' kinda jump which worked through immobility - but as you say, that's a lot of work and is a fairly big change.

 

Other than that, I'd like to see improvements to our defensive cooldowns (unnerfing charged barrier back to 2% low in the gunnery tree would be a help), as well as giving us tools to avoid interrupts.

Edited by Jherad
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I agree with you, that we are somewhat susceptible to interrupts too much. Add to the fact that some abilities are on a cast time...

 

...So they get both interrupted AND LOSd.

Edited by SneiK
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I just finished #1 DPS Civil War (800k DMG), with a sorc being 2nd (700k), as a Merc DPS.

 

It was Ranked.

 

FUBAR vs. MVPs (2500-3000+ Rating)

 

...Oh, and I wasn't even full WH min maxed, like everybody else in both teams.

 

 

L2P issues?

 

 

Fix our push like you fixed the sorcs, and give us a self heal like you gave them. Problem fixed.

Oh, and it's lame that Merc Pyros have to spec into +2% endurance, to not gimp themselves, when PTs get 9% DMG on main rail crit ability (RP). Move alacrity bonus somewhere else, and give us +% on unload.

 

PS: The Sorc's middle tree is bad in PvP, so is the PT's (only due to dodgy PFT, however), so the Merc is not alone in that regard.

 

If you want better pushback resistance, there is a talent box for that.

 

um, we have self heals bud. LoS some and use them.

 

Again, the problem with Merc is NOT damage output. I have no problem putting up good dps numbers in warzones. The majority of warzones Im in I top the charts by large margins. The problem is, if I was playing a sniper I would be doing infinitely better.

 

If you compare classes at equal gear and equal skill levels, Merc is the bottom of the barrel for DPS. This is what we are saying with this thread; a highly skilled player will excel with a Merc, but would perform even better on a non-gimped class

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If you want better pushback resistance, there is a talent box for that.

 

um, we have self heals bud. LoS some and use them.

 

Again, the problem with Merc is NOT damage output. I have no problem putting up good dps numbers in warzones. The majority of warzones Im in I top the charts by large margins. The problem is, if I was playing a sniper I would be doing infinitely better.

 

If you compare classes at equal gear and equal skill levels, Merc is the bottom of the barrel for DPS. This is what we are saying with this thread; a highly skilled player will excel with a Merc, but would perform even better on a non-gimped class

 

Ummm, the pushback is still 360 degrees, and has a horrible ability delay, so you will never push people where you want 'em, if they are moving (THAT is the problem. Keyboard turners/clickers might love their 360 pushback, but I take 15m cone instant anyday)

 

Read the patch notes, sorcs push was fixed. A cone 15m INSTANT (nearly no ability delay)

 

And again, read patch notes. Sorcs received a free self heal, INSTANT (I am not talking about the regular 1.5-2.0 sec casted ones lol)

 

And again, pushback increase is an Arsenal talent, which you can't reach if you want to PvP (= Pyro).

Edited by SneiK
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Ummm, the pushback is still 360 degrees, and has a horrible ability delay, so you will never push people where you want 'em, if they are moving (THAT is the problem. Keyboard turners/clickers might love their 360 pushback, but I take 15m cone instant anyday)

 

Read the patch notes, sorcs push was fixed. A cone 15m INSTANT (nearly no ability delay)

 

And again, read patch notes. Sorcs received a free self heal, INSTANT (I am not talking about the regular 1.5-2.0 sec casted ones lol)

 

And again, pushback increase is an Arsenal talent, which you can't reach if you want to PvP (= Pyro).

 

you mean a knockback? why would you prefer to have a cone effect? there is nothing wrong with Mercs 360deg knockback right now, and it should not be "fixed" as you say. i have no problems with ability delay, and rarely have a problem with latency not showing people in the correct place. the ability to clear an entire ramp in huttball is very nice, and i would prefer for it to NOT be removed.

 

youre whining for an instant heal? lol. we've got 2 heals at our disposal right now, and have the ability to make one instant in a pinch. and giving us an instant heal is not going to help with our ability to maintain dps output while being mobile, which is the crux of the problems with Merc.

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