If anyone shares my views, pls reply.

I don't share your views but I will reply nonetheless.

 

 

Quite honestly, I find him to be one of the most memorable Jedi Masters to appear in the game and kudos to the voice actor for the memorable job he did.

Wow. Jedi can't win can they?

 

If it's not moaning about them being slow to act (if they act at all) it's moaning about the fact that they do act.

 

In a galaxy where each side has their own rules, I'm not so sure however, if the BH is really held accountable in the way the Jedi would think, as the BH isn't part of the Republic.

I believe the phrase is "what comes around, goes around".

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2013 by Bleeters

Wow. Jedi can't win can they?

 

If it's not moaning about them being slow to act (if they act at all) it's moaning about the fact that they do act.

 

In a galaxy where each side has their own rules, I'm not so sure however, if the BH is really held accountable in the way the Jedi would think, as the BH isn't part of the Republic.

 

He isn't a part of the Empire either and that's why the BH has to be held accountable: Hell, the BH doesn't even follow an ideology or anything of the sort, other than going for the quick buck, without thinking of the consequences.

 

Again, unlike what the story may try to imply early on, the BH is not just a mindless tool. Every action has consequences, whether he realizes or not.

I believe the phrase is "what comes around, goes around".

 

 

The Bounty Hunter destroys an entire Republic military ship full of people. Killing at least one Jedi in the process. And for what? To win a competition. What did you expect them to do, shrug it off and go meditate?

 

True. If I murder someone because you pay me I still murdered them. The BH is responsible for his actions, like everyone else.

 

 

The Bounty Hunter destroys an entire Republic military ship full of people. Killing at least one Jedi in the process. And for what? To win a competition. What did you expect them to do, shrug it off and go meditate?

 

 

 

 

I think this is why exploring multiple story lines is key to understanding the morality of SWTOR. Depending on what class you play & the choices you make, you get to see some deeply disturbed Jedi and some fairly rational Sith. Of course, you'll always see the archetypal Jedi and Sith, but if that's all there is, it would be a pretty damn boring game.

 

 

 

 

Like it or not, these are civilizations that support the use of Bounty Hunters. When the BH says "take it up with my employer," that's actually the way to stop the contracts. But since the Mandalorians have a huge hand in the hunt, no one Pub side is willing to take them on, especially as the War with the Sith escalates.

 

So I kinda agree with the OP.

Wow...so most of you disagree with the Supreme Chancellor, who admits in the end of the BH story that Seros was out of line? Surprising.

 

 

I think this is why exploring multiple story lines is key to understanding the morality of SWTOR. Depending on what class you play & the choices you make, you get to see some deeply disturbed Jedi and some fairly rational Sith. Of course, you'll always see the archetypal Jedi and Sith, but if that's all there is, it would be a pretty damn boring game.

 

 

Arguably, Seros is an example of when a Jedi snaps, which is what I believe happened. He'd seen enough of his comrades die ignominiously, and he just wasn't going to take it anymore. For a Jedi to do that though, he was way out of line, like it or not. He basically let his personal feelings override his judgment, organized his own crusade against the BH, sacrificing troops and Jedi alike when they were needed elsewhere, when he should have been spending time fighting the Sith.

 

Then, he orders the slaughter of the entire (unarmed) Black List at a social event without a second thought (Jewl'a Nightbringer was shot in the back as she was fleeing; hope you caught that little tidbit). Yes, they were professional killers themselves and likely wanted by the Republic, but Seros decided to be their unilateral executioner on a neutral world. That's not what Jedi do. That's what fallen Jedi and Sith do. Not to mention that the unintended consequence of Seros's crusade is more death and destruction, culminating with the capture of the Chancellor.

 

 

Like it or not, these are civilizations that support the use of Bounty Hunters. When the BH says "take it up with my employer," that's actually the way to stop the contracts. But since the Mandalorians have a huge hand in the hunt, no one Pub side is willing to take them on, especially as the War with the Sith escalates.

 

So I kinda agree with the OP.

 

 

 

The "take it up with my employer" thing annoys me a bit. Specifically in the circumstance that it's used, I mean.

 

 

 

 

Wow...so most of you disagree with the Supreme Chancellor, who admits in the end of the BH story that Seros was out of line? Surprising.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2013 by Bleeters

There are two ways of looking at this.

 

Firstly, that Seros was out of line, yes he was, he sacrificed allies to bring down one man (and he failed at that), and he broke the Jedi Code, again true.

 

Secondly, that Seros was responding to the events in a reasonable way, the BH was extremely dangerous, was killing members of the republic just to win a hunting contest, and had to pay for his crimes, and that going by the rules wasn't going to do this.

 

Both viewpoints have merits, and both have flaws. Personally I feel the truth is actually a blend, Seros was doing the only thing possible to protect the republic, but he went too far, and lost his way.

The "take it up with my employer" thing annoys me a bit. Specifically in the circumstance that it's used, I mean.

 

 

Who was the Bounty Hunters employer at the end of chapter one? The Empire? Well, no, because they didn't issue the challenge, and they weren't involved in the great hunt (which more than once has you killing Imperial personell) in any way. The Mandalorians? Maybe, but they weren't issuing a contract per se. It wasn't a business arrangement. It was a final challenge to win a competition, and whilst the Mandalorians do shoulder some of the responsibility for picking the target, I wouldn't exactly say they're fully responsible. Nobody was making the BH do it, there was no contract to do so, and unless the great hunt had a cash prize nobody was paying them to do it either.

 

The BH blew up that ship for their own personal glory. "Take it up with my employer" is a feeble justification.

 

 

 

 

In framing the Bounty Hunter for things they never did, no. I agree with the Chancellor there.

 

For everything else Seros does, yes.

 

For the BH story there are some inconsistencies with Markons briefings. On DK they specifically mention who is handing out the contract, you even meet two of the three. But later on they dont do this as much...you are kinda left guessing. But just because they dont mention it in later stories doesnt mean there isnt a contract. Bounty Hunters dont work for free right? someone is paying them to take out the target. The BH does share some responsibility but really, who should the crazy, angry jedi be focused on? t

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2013 by swtonewbie

He isn't a part of the Empire either and that's why the BH has to be held accountable: Hell, the BH doesn't even follow an ideology or anything of the sort, other than going for the quick buck, without thinking of the consequences.

 

That's open for interpretation based on play through. There are options from beginning to end for the BH to establish their views and reasons behind their actions. The most prevalent is, of course, the money factor... but it is possible to take the route of honor (/revenge) and loyalty. Especially after the end of chapter one.

 

 

 

 

As far as the OP goes, I agree... Master Seros did act like a total **** and tool But he had his reasons, just like the BH had his/her reasons for all of their actions. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

 

And as far as blowing up the ship? Crysta Markon gives you specific instructions on how to disable its hyperdrive systems so that it would be destroyed once it went into hyperspace. It wasnt something you just up and decided to do. If the lady handing out my contract tells me to do something, i'm going to do it because i'll assume its part of the contract.

 

 

Yeah, I get that. My point was that much of what you do to win the great hunt - especially the last thing - aren't business contracts per se. The BH is being instructed to do it, sure, but what's the motivation for it? To win a competition. Personal fame and glory. The BH could've walked away at any point,

 

I mean, I don't accept the whole 'it wasn't my choice, I'm just the weapon' mercenary excuse in the first place for a whole mess of reasons, but having the BH claim it wasn't their fault and that they should 'take it up with their employer' is just reckless hypocracy.

going afetr the BH was fine, but the way Seros went about it was waaaaaaaaay out of line. especially when he basicly accused the BH of horiffic crimes they had no part in. the minute that happens it's no longer about justice.

going afetr the BH was fine, but the way Seros went about it was waaaaaaaaay out of line. especially when he basicly accused the BH of horiffic crimes they had no part in. the minute that happens it's no longer about justice.

 

Will have disagree with that one. It's a nasty tactic, but Seros was going after THE BEST bounty hunter around. You don't find THE BEST bounty hunter that ever lived by putting up wanted posters.

 

And it's not like the BHs that were killed at the party were innocent. They all try to act like they're not doing something wrong, but when anyone can place a contract for a BH to take, the BH is a hired killer. Sure your BH can take the "don't kill route" but never take it? Not always an option. And capturing them alive and taking them to the contract placer to kill is just as bad.

 

Seros failure was he went against his own Jedi teachings, but then, outside of the PC, it looks as if all members of the Jedi Order fail to keep to one of the teachings.

 

It's not helped further by the fact that if one has force abilities, one is either considered Jedi or Sith. If you have a lightsaber, you must be one or the other.

At the end of chapter 2 i was thinking "Alright, my BH get's to go to a party-wait how would that work....eh....*arrive* Noooo does this mean i don't get a cake? NO? Time to shoot 'em up

 

That moment i wanted to kill this jedi, he was annoying and i didn't get any cake, but he had his reasons and i have mine. Now, Time for a HUNT!

Edited July 2, 2013 by Connorsan

Oh, he went to far, but only in so much that he started sacrificing his own men. But even then, one could argue that happens when you have people trying to stop a murderer.

 

Who'd he massacre at the social event? A bunch of murderers.

 

For some BHs, it is just a job, and Empire side, it's a legal job. Pub side, not so much, but I seem to recall (could be wrong, been awhile) a few Pubs making use of the bounty system.

 

A guy in one of Coruscant's cantinas is hiring a Bountyhunter to off his wife - I doubt it's legal though, since they are meeting in some shady den.

It's one of the random NPC dialogues when you walk up to them.

A guy in one of Coruscant's cantinas is hiring a Bountyhunter to off his wife - I doubt it's legal though, since they are meeting in some shady den.

It's one of the random NPC dialogues when you walk up to them.

 

Even in the BH storyline there's comments about proper paperwork for the job versus just taking a job and basically being hired assassins/thugs.

 

Some of the issues with it, may be the SW definition of Bounty Hunter, and what real life (NA anyways) bounty hunters do. SW version of BH's can very well just be hired muscle/killers.

People seem to be defending Jun Seros on some sort of moral grounding with all kinds of nonsense about him bringing a hired killer to justice. But in reality all that this was about was eliminating a potential threat to the Republic and its war effort against the Sith Empire. We have to remember that the Republic and the Sith were at war here, they don't have to respect each other and each others boundaries. If a BH kills an important Jedi, regardless of the circumstances, they are going to be hunted down, because simply put they are a threat. So I reject that Jun Seros was on some heroic campaign for justice and the stuff he comes out with makes me sick. Case in point:

 

"You chose to murder Kellian Jarro. Just like you murdered everyone sent to bring you to justice. You could have surrendered at any time."

 

Everyone the BH has 'murdered' have been armed and enemies of the Empire, this is wartime (let's face it the Cold War was just a facade) people die, this has nothing to do with justice, this is simply war. On the other hand, slaughtering a group of unarmed bounty hunters entirely unaffiliated with the Sith Empire? And wrongly accusing the BH of crimes he did not committ? That is a breach in justice.

 

I expect Jun Seros has killed his fair share of Sith, so he is equal with the BH in that respect. The above however puts him in the wrong, not the Bounty Hunter. Simply put, he had no grounds whatsoever to refer to his mission as bringing the Bounty Hunter to 'justice'. He can't even uphold his own Jedi Code. He got what was coming to him.

People seem to be defending Jun Seros on some sort of moral grounding with all kinds of nonsense about him bringing a hired killer to justice. But in reality all that this was about was eliminating a potential threat to the Republic and its war effort against the Sith Empire. We have to remember that the Republic and the Sith were at war here, they don't have to respect each other and each others boundaries. If a BH kills an important Jedi, regardless of the circumstances, they are going to be hunted down, because simply put they are a threat. So I reject that Jun Seros was on some heroic campaign for justice and the stuff he comes out with makes me sick. Case in point:

 

"You chose to murder Kellian Jarro. Just like you murdered everyone sent to bring you to justice. You could have surrendered at any time."

 

Everyone the BH has 'murdered' have been armed and enemies of the Empire, this is wartime (let's face it the Cold War was just a facade) people die, this has nothing to do with justice, this is simply war. On the other hand, slaughtering a group of unarmed bounty hunters entirely unaffiliated with the Sith Empire? And wrongly accusing the BH of crimes he did not committ? That is a breach in justice.

 

I expect Jun Seros has killed his fair share of Sith, so he is equal with the BH in that respect. The above however puts him in the wrong, not the Bounty Hunter. Simply put, he had no grounds whatsoever to refer to his mission as bringing the Bounty Hunter to 'justice'. He can't even uphold his own Jedi Code. He got what was coming to him.

 

I don't recall the spy or wife of an Imperial officer he was sleeping with, being armed. Though, that was less a BH quest and more a side quest.

 

Of course he's killed Sith. There's no such thing as a good Sith (outside of possibly the PCs and even then, I swear there were some options where you were just going to do something evil regardless, but for different motivations for LS or DS).

 

And a group of BH's who would kill any target for the right price. Some of the contracts weren't "Oh this is a terrible person" some of those contracts where "This good person upset me in some way" and some of them for the Great Hunt was basically "Ooooo...this target would be a great challenge for anyone."

 

The Great Hunt is all about turning murder into a game "Let's play who's the better killer."

 

You think people are in the wrong to think the Jedi was on some noble cause, but the BH wasn't doing anything noble, other than killing for glory/money.

 

Now if choosen, the BH could have some sort of moral code.

 

But face it, the BH kills a Jedi Master because he kicked Mandalorian butt when they sided with the Sith on the Sacking of Curoscant. That's right, they wanted to kill a Jedi because they invaded and then got their butt kicked.

 

They put a bounty on a Jedi, because the Jedi was freeing people who were invaded and then put under martial law by an evil government (or if you'd rather, a government they didn't want over them).

 

So you kill that Jedi, and Seros comes in, seeking justice and revenge, and willing to do anything possible to get it.

 

Now I loved the BH storyline, it's one of my favorites (more so than the JK or SW ones, which are generally considered the best because of the epic feeling), but let's not kid ourselves. BH is not an innocent person, and neither were the other bounty hunters.

 

And with how the storyline plays out, I'd guess it was written with the idea that you kill the Padawan too.

Now I loved the BH storyline, it's one of my favorites (more so than the JK or SW ones, which are generally considered the best because of the epic feeling), but let's not kid ourselves. BH is not an innocent person, and neither were the other bounty hunters.

 

And with how the storyline plays out, I'd guess it was written with the idea that you kill the Padawan too.

 

Even if you save the Padawan on the ship, I'm pretty sure in some later encounter (next chapter) she still comes after you with a bunch of toadies, at which point you fight and kill her too - so either way, she eventually winds up dead.

It was something where I can imagine my Bounty Hunter sighing at the foolishness, if he wiped the floor with her Master how on Earth did the Pawadan think she stood a chance?

Also, I thought the majority of people prefered the IA storyline - each time I've seen a poll on it, it wipes the floor with all the other choices.

 

I think Jun Seros was well on his way to becoming a second Nomen Karr, he became obsessed with the Bounty Hunter and he would've thrown every resource at the Hunter's capture, no matter how often it got his people killed - and to justify his relentless pursuit he fabricated a bunch of lies.

I generally like to think that my (LS) Bounty Hunter often doesn't shoot to kill, unless there is no other way - but I'm also not under the impression that he, nor any of the other Empire classes, is a truly good person.

The mere choice of profession alone already makes it questionable.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Callaron

I don't recall the spy or wife of an Imperial officer he was sleeping with, being armed. Though, that was less a BH quest and more a side quest.

 

Of course he's killed Sith. There's no such thing as a good Sith (outside of possibly the PCs and even then, I swear there were some options where you were just going to do something evil regardless, but for different motivations for LS or DS).

 

And a group of BH's who would kill any target for the right price. Some of the contracts weren't "Oh this is a terrible person" some of those contracts where "This good person upset me in some way" and some of them for the Great Hunt was basically "Ooooo...this target would be a great challenge for anyone."

 

The Great Hunt is all about turning murder into a game "Let's play who's the better killer."

 

You think people are in the wrong to think the Jedi was on some noble cause, but the BH wasn't doing anything noble, other than killing for glory/money.

 

Now if choosen, the BH could have some sort of moral code.

 

But face it, the BH kills a Jedi Master because he kicked Mandalorian butt when they sided with the Sith on the Sacking of Curoscant. That's right, they wanted to kill a Jedi because they invaded and then got their butt kicked.

 

They put a bounty on a Jedi, because the Jedi was freeing people who were invaded and then put under martial law by an evil government (or if you'd rather, a government they didn't want over them).

 

So you kill that Jedi, and Seros comes in, seeking justice and revenge, and willing to do anything possible to get it.

 

Now I loved the BH storyline, it's one of my favorites (more so than the JK or SW ones, which are generally considered the best because of the epic feeling), but let's not kid ourselves. BH is not an innocent person, and neither were the other bounty hunters.

 

And with how the storyline plays out, I'd guess it was written with the idea that you kill the Padawan too.

We are not considering the facts at hand here though. Jun Seros wanted to bring the Bounty Hunter to 'justice' for killing a Jedi Master, despite said master being an enemy of the Mandalorians who are in an alliance with the Empire. This is not a question of morals or law, this is war, and in war the opposing sides are going to attempt to kill each other.

 

The Bounty Hunter killing the Jedi Master from a neutral perspective is no different than Jun Seros killing a Sith Lord or other important member of the Empire. Maybe the Bounty Hunter's moral compass is out of line, but the fact remains he is operating within the laws of the Empire, the Mandalorians and the conduct of war.

 

This is not a question of justice, and Jun Seros claiming to be on a campaign of that kind is simply incorrect and points to nothing other than arrogance and misplaced self-righteousness.

 

On the other hand Jun Seros can be accused of the murder of the former winners of the Great Hunt without provocation, (who are not affiliated with the Empire in any way.) I am aware of no law within the Republic that justifies the execution of criminals without trial, and that's without considering whether a bunch of aging bounty hunters who has been out of the business for an odd decade or so can be considered a criminal.

 

Here Jun Seros has violated the laws of both the Republic and the Jedi Order. And that's without considering the fact that he wrongly accused the Bounty Hunter of crimes he had not committed.

 

Simply put, if anyone should be brought to 'justice' it should be Jun Seros. And even the Supreme Chancellor himself realised this and he resigned out of shame for his actions. Clearly the writers at Bioware were deliberately placing Jun Seros in the wrong, giving the opportunity for players to choose a more morally aligned Bounty Hunter if they chose to spare the Chancellor and defeat Darth Tormen.

...but I'm also not under the impression that he, nor any of the other Empire classes, is a truly good person.

The mere choice of profession alone already makes it questionable.

My BH has no moral compass whatsoever other than protecting and respecting his allies and any others he deems worthy of his favour. I sided with Darth Tormen and shot the Supreme Chancellor right between the eyes out of revenge and a lust for glory and power. But don't expect by BH to turn himself in to 'the Man' in the name of 'justice' when he himself is a hypocritical, two-faced liar.

We are not considering the facts at hand here though. Jun Seros wanted to bring the Bounty Hunter to 'justice' for killing a Jedi Master, despite said master being an enemy of the Mandalorians who are in an alliance with the Empire. This is not a question of morals or law, this is war, and in war the opposing sides are going to attempt to kill each other.

 

The Bounty Hunter killing the Jedi Master from a neutral perspective is no different than Jun Seros killing a Sith Lord or other important member of the Empire. Maybe the Bounty Hunter's moral compass is out of line, but the fact remains he is operating within the laws of the Empire, the Mandalorians and the conduct of war.

 

This is not a question of justice, and Jun Seros claiming to be on a campaign of that kind is simply incorrect and points to nothing other than arrogance and misplaced self-righteousness.

 

On the other hand Jun Seros can be accused of the murder of the former winners of the Great Hunt without provocation, (who are not affiliated with the Empire in any way.) I am aware of no law within the Republic that justifies the execution of criminals without trial, and that's without considering whether a bunch of aging bounty hunters who has been out of the business for an odd decade or so can be considered a criminal.

 

Here Jun Seros has violated the laws of both the Republic and the Jedi Order. And that's without considering the fact that he wrongly accused the Bounty Hunter of crimes he had not committed.

 

Simply put, if anyone should be brought to 'justice' it should be Jun Seros. And even the Supreme Chancellor himself realised this and he resigned out of shame for his actions. Clearly the writers at Bioware were deliberately placing Jun Seros in the wrong, giving the opportunity for players to choose a more morally aligned Bounty Hunter if they chose to spare the Chancellor and defeat Darth Tormen.

 

The BH killed a Jedi Master, in a war he/she had no part of, nor any relation to (the BH wasn't a Mando), for nothing more than sport/money.

 

You bring hired killers to justice. Of course the story is written as it is, because they don't want the BH looking like the villain.

 

Let's go with, "This is war" you mean the line were the BH says "This isn't my war" sooo, we go back to BH is a hired killer. Might be a hired killer that requires contracts first, and may even decide if the target is worth it for whatever reason (money, challenge, fame, what have you), but the Jedi Master the BH kills was not a killer, was not evil, was infact a defender of innocents, but the one's hurting the innocents happened to be Mandos.

It depends on the laws in Star Wars. In real life we have international laws governing the matter, if a mercenary (the BH) is involved in a legal conflict, then you can't hunt him down afterwards and try to kill him (in the same way you can't hunt down retired enemy soldiers). If they don't have some form of galactic laws in place (to prevent torture, war crimes etc.) then it's fair game. It's probably quite un-jedilike though.