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The problem with a lot of classes in PVP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
The problem with a lot of classes in PVP

Dyne-'s Avatar


Dyne-
06.09.2019 , 11:07 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Seterade View Post
there is no "new" stun lock meta, no new hard stuns have been added to swtor since 3.0

this is a L2P issue. there must always be a way to die, to lose. should you never lose, there will be no challenge.. without challenge, why would you play? I dont play with 5 year old toys. I play videogames, and usually on hard mode.
I'm inclined to agree with Seterade and Trixxie on this one. If there were more ways to break cc high mobility classes would reign supreme. Stun Wars is frustrating, but few things would be more boring then Speed Wars. There's so much self healing and strong DCDs in this game that players rely on cc to kill each other. What Bioware could consider doing if they haven't already is something along the lines of what another individual mentioned here.

1. They could make soft cc add the same amount of resolve as hard cc so players had to actually think about when they use their stuns.

2. They could make the resolve bar decrease the duration of the current active cc, reduce the cooldown on your cc breaker, or increase the damage resistance of a player during full resolve ( while still stunned ).

3. They could make the decay on the resolve bar not start until the current active cc is over and the player is free to move.

I'm just brainstorming here but all of the above would be better than making classes indomitable or immortal. I'd rather players have to think about when they engage. Classes are pretty well balanced as it is with a few only needing minor tweaks ( looking at you mercs, ops, snipers ), but when it's all said and done it's important to be able to create situations where players can be killed especially in team fights with healers. Right now the damage windows created by cc is one of the only avenues to victory in a war of attrition. We've all gotta die sometime Delani, but it's up to you to play your class in a way that maximizes your own survivability.

I've said it before and i'll say it again, classes should have their individual strengths and weaknesses. Skanks shouldn't be a thing, Mercs shouldn't tank like Juggs, No one should be able to maraud better than a Marauder, everyone doesn't need to be as slippery as an operative, Assassins should be hit and run masters (not unkillable duelists with unlimited control and the ability to "lol nope" out of combat) ect.

Half of the fun in this game ( to me ) is figuring out how to win against classes I shouldn't within the confines of the class I love.

Play your way should refer to how you gain gear / unlocks in this game. The actual role you play in a warzone should be determined by the class you choose.

Delani's Avatar


Delani
06.09.2019 , 03:19 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Dyne- View Post

I've said it before and i'll say it again, classes should have their individual strengths and weaknesses. Skanks shouldn't be a thing, Mercs shouldn't tank like Juggs, No one should be able to maraud better than a Marauder, everyone doesn't need to be as slippery as an operative, Assassins should be hit and run masters (not unkillable duelists with unlimited control and the ability to "lol nope" out of combat) ect.

Half of the fun in this game ( to me ) is figuring out how to win against classes I shouldn't within the confines of the class I love.

Play your way should refer to how you gain gear / unlocks in this game. The actual role you play in a warzone should be determined by the class you choose.
Fair but every class needs more strength and weakness, the decay idea is good but is it going to make the gameplay more fun? I agree that every class shouldnt be like operatives but every class needs an "out" like operative. I dont care what is but lets be honest, some classes are lacking something. Maybe it isnt movement but its something.

Delani's Avatar


Delani
06.09.2019 , 03:23 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Dyne- View Post
I'm inclined to agree with Seterade and Trixxie on this one. If there were more ways to break cc high mobility classes would reign supreme. Stun Wars is frustrating, but few things would be more boring then Speed Wars. There's so much self healing and strong DCDs in this game that players rely on cc to kill each other. What Bioware could consider doing if they haven't already is something along the lines of what another individual mentioned here.

1. They could make soft cc add the same amount of resolve as hard cc so players had to actually think about when they use their stuns.

2. They could make the resolve bar decrease the duration of the current active cc, reduce the cooldown on your cc breaker, or increase the damage resistance of a player during full resolve ( while still stunned ).

3. They could make the decay on the resolve bar not start until the current active cc is over and the player is free to move.

I'm just brainstorming here but all of the above would be better than making classes indomitable or immortal. I'd rather players have to think about when they engage. Classes are pretty well balanced as it is with a few only needing minor tweaks ( looking at you mercs, ops, snipers ), but when it's all said and done it's important to be able to create situations where players can be killed especially in team fights with healers. Right now the damage windows created by cc is one of the only avenues to victory in a war of attrition. We've all gotta die sometime Delani, but it's up to you to play your class in a way that maximizes your own survivability.

I've said it before and i'll say it again, classes should have their individual strengths and weaknesses. Skanks shouldn't be a thing, Mercs shouldn't tank like Juggs, No one should be able to maraud better than a Marauder, everyone doesn't need to be as slippery as an operative, Assassins should be hit and run masters (not unkillable duelists with unlimited control and the ability to "lol nope" out of combat) ect.

Half of the fun in this game ( to me ) is figuring out how to win against classes I shouldn't within the confines of the class I love.

Play your way should refer to how you gain gear / unlocks in this game. The actual role you play in a warzone should be determined by the class you choose.
I just think the weaker classes need more innovation and creativity implemented within the class so that players have more to work with. The ideas I read on the class forums were not "game changing" if you ask me. People are limiting themselves with what they believe is appropiate when Musco himself said, "go crazy".

Dyne-'s Avatar


Dyne-
06.09.2019 , 05:07 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Delani View Post
I just think the weaker classes need more innovation and creativity implemented within the class so that players have more to work with. The ideas I read on the class forums were not "game changing" if you ask me. People are limiting themselves with what they believe is appropiate when Musco himself said, "go crazy".
I don't think you're completely wrong on this point. My point above was that cc serves a purpose, as does class choice. Certain classes should be stronger in certain aspects than others, and the game shouldn't necessarily be balanced from a 1v1 perspective.

I don't mind innovation and creativity so long as it doesn't throw class roles and balance out the window. As of right now the game balance is decent outside of the issues I mentioned above.

What concerns me are changes made in the name of "innovation and creativity" doing away with the little bit of uniqueness left in the game between classes in addition to balance. The classes you mentioned having additional cc breakers would become hilariously OP in the hands of a good player. I know players that play Sorcs, Sins, and PTs that would crush with that kind of freedom. It would be like giving me cc immunity and damage resistance on leap on my Rage Jugg. People would be begging for nerfs if that was a thing.

I'm all for tactical items that change the way certain specs play, but ( for example ) under no circumstances should Vengeance Juggs be hitting like Rage Juggs in addition to dots. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If we're going to have changes "go crazy" should not be a part of it. The devs should use that energy to fix what's broken and make new pvp game modes.

I have not read all of Musco's ideas. I'll have to read up on them. The last time I read the tactical item post the majority of the responses were as follows:

1. Tanks want to do more damage in pvp.
2. Dps specs want to do more damage while touting increased survivability.

I'd much prefer nerfs to OP classes and small changes to specs for varieties sake; but not at the expense of balance.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
06.09.2019 , 05:24 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Dyne- View Post

I'd much prefer nerfs to OP classes and small changes to specs for varieties sake; but not at the expense of balance.
new xpacks are never balanced. my sub runs out long before, so I won't have to worry about it, but...yeah. that's a pipe dream. small changes require constant updates, and that definitely isn't happening.
Krack

Dyne-'s Avatar


Dyne-
06.09.2019 , 05:29 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Delani View Post
Fair but every class needs more strength and weakness, the decay idea is good but is it going to make the gameplay more fun? I agree that every class shouldnt be like operatives but every class needs an "out" like operative. I dont care what is but lets be honest, some classes are lacking something. Maybe it isnt movement but its something.
I can agree with this to a point. I think each class should have some form of anti focus ( a brief cloak, period of extreme damage reduction, or increased parry / dodge ) I was simply addressing your earlier comments specifically. Something does need to be done, but an additional breaker isn't the answer.

A question that should be asked though. If mercs / Ops didn't have their moment of extreme cheesiness, would any of the above be necessary? If those classes couldn't fight outnumbered as well as they do I think we'd have a lot less to complain about in general.

Right now everyone wants to be as OP as them. That isn't the answer.

Dyne-'s Avatar


Dyne-
06.09.2019 , 05:30 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
new xpacks are never balanced. my sub runs out long before, so I won't have to worry about it, but...yeah. that's a pipe dream. small changes require constant updates, and that definitely isn't happening.
Agreed lol.

Delani's Avatar


Delani
06.09.2019 , 05:52 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Dyne- View Post
I can agree with this to a point. I think each class should have some form of anti focus ( a brief cloak, period of extreme danger reduction, or increased parry / dodge ) I was simply addressing your earlier comments specifically. Something does need to be done, but an additional breaker isn't the answer.

A question that should be asked though. If mercs / Ops didn't have their moment of extreme cheesiness, would any of the above be necessary? If those classes couldn't fight outnumbered as well as they do I think we'd have a lot less to complain about in general.

Right now everyone wants to be as OP as them. That isn't the answer.
Nope!!! buffing mercs, and maras definately threw off the balance. Nerfing them now might make certain players unhappy so i personally beleive buffing other classes is the way to go especailly since they are adding new abilities in September. What I was suggesting as an anti-focus is something like sorces casting stuff from the dead (like the eso abilitiy) or a tactical item that allows you to summon your companion while in a warzone (LOL). Something that requires skill and its new. Theres already enough cloak. Well find out what bioware has planned for us when all the classes are on the PTS but i just hope its creative. Without ruining the purpose of classes lol

Dyne-'s Avatar


Dyne-
06.09.2019 , 06:30 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Delani View Post
Theres already enough cloak. Well find out what bioware has planned for us when all the classes are on the PTS but i just hope its creative. Without ruining the purpose of classes lol
If I could cast from the dead i'd probably main sorc lmao. Whatever they do as an anti-focus i'd make them the same in function, but visually look different as to fit with the class and the lore behind the character. ( ex: saber users deflecting, sorcs using tutaminis, bounty hunters / commandos using shields or jetpacking ). I agree there's enough cloak, and whatever they do I just want it to be good.

I gotta jet, was nice talking to you though. Good luck in your warzones!

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
06.09.2019 , 06:45 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Delani View Post
Yes!!! I honestly agree with most of what you said, the problem with the pvp is that it is too mundane and repetitve, we know what each class has and exactly how to fight it. We need more creativity which is what I was saying the entire time. In regards to the post you responded to, I was just stating the reason why certain classes are op and why certain classes are not and the root of this issue is hard stuns. We need more creativity and innovative ideas that will allow each class to feel unique and different without adding more of what is already in the game. Do you have any ideas at all that might work rather than what you think would not work?
Well, they are introducing these tactical and amplifiers in 6.0; that are supposed to liven things up.

Besides that, the only other thing I can think of is nerf / remove a lot of the stuns, immunities and speed abilities back to the 1.2 - 2.0 meta when classes still felt unique and we didn’t have stun wars vs speed wars.